Why LESS Is More for the Bulls Attack Coach | Neil de Bruin

This is the Loose Pass Rugby Podcast, only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the Loose Pass Rugby Podcast. My bullying and reputation. We have two loose passes a week now, and a stellar guest every week. Last week, we had Libby Dance for Lesbrug.

This week, we've got Neil the Brain, the tech coach at the Bulls. Welcome, Neil. Thank you, NB. Nice to meet you, and we're really looking forward to the conversation. It's always interesting with you.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm definitely looking forward to talking to you and learning as much from you as we possibly can, not just about the bulls but about being an attack coach you know i was speaking to someone the other day and they said that of course we're in the era of attack coaches uh they said that you know the defense coaches the the exact words that he used with these guys are military psychos whereas the attack coaches they're the artisans are the artists are the musicians of the rugby world is that fair are you a creative are you an artisan at heart neil uh yes i think you've um you've you've nailed it there that's probably the difference between the attack and the defense guys they they tend to be the grumpy oaks and and we tend to try and lighten the mood a bit and find the silver lining in things so it's a spot-on assessment and where are you joining us from at the moment are you in deepest darkest west wales yeah we are actually in cardiff it's a lovely sunny day actually so nothing to complain about weather-wise it's my first time out here actually and everyone said the weather is terrible but i've had the opposite experience so um no it's it's been wonderful being yeah it's cool city i was i was going to ask if this is your first time coming to wales because i was looking back at your career and i don't know if you'd have had a reason to come so i will say welcome on the behalf of wales welcome to the wonderful country cardiff is a very nice weather at the moment it's nice and sunny we brought that especially from you i know having spoken to some of the scarlet's players they love going down to south africa for the weather and for the braai and stuff like that whereas maybe you south africans don't always enjoy coming to places like wales and scotland and things in the depths of the winter but um when it comes to like the travel and stuff in the urc you guys got it now down to a fine operation are you kind of like in and out of the airport in under an hour how how slick is it how how fine a tuned of an operation is the travel now for the south african teams yeah well it's a really important part of your preparation as as you both of you will know so i i believe that over the last couple of years with us being in the the urc for a while it has taken some time to iron out of a couple of issues but no it's it's smooth we've got a really good manager with me gene here that he he handles everything so while everyone's nice and relaxed on the play and you can see him sweating trying to get everything right so no it's it's been a smooth transition the people have been so good everyone everywhere we've been they've been helping and uh yeah it's been it's been really good um lovely people the welsh um always want to chat rugby the people stop you on the on the corners which is which is refreshing so no it's been a really good experience pardon me for jumping in here but i spoke to koneal else when i was at loftus and you guys change your traveling schedule a little bit you're not going through qatar anymore forget about the war now even before that you've got a much more direct flight so you spend much less time on a plane and how much how important is that well i think it is it's it's accumulative so the more time you spend during the season eventually that's going to catch up on you especially with the amount of travel the south african sides have to do um they are they've they've tried to slimline it and make it from kind of point a to point b as quickly as possible which is which is really helpful uh lots of the guys fly premium economy which which helps with the legroom especially the players um it's been good envied coming from from super rugby where you travel halfway across the world um with the different time time zones make an impact on your sleep and and your recovery up up north it's quite easy it's a pretty direct flight 10 hours or 11 hours then you you're in the heart of the uk so it's um i wouldn't say it's a massive, massive concern at this stage, the travel. It's really convenient, actually. You had to leave the hotel the other day at three o'clock in the morning. I mean, that's not normal.

That had to have an effect somehow. No, well, you always have those anomalies, and there's always times where you can't catch a flight or get enough numbers on a flight that you need. We actually had a bye week because we didn't play too long on the weekend. So sometimes you just got to roll with the punches, and it's not ideal, but now there's enough time to recover so i'm not too bad inbio well speaking of that and you know the impact of the travel and the the reason that that drives the conversation is about player resting and player welfare and things like that and kind of the the big topic in club rugby especially at the moment is about squad rotation and if you talk to the irish it's all they talk about you know the likes of leinster you know making 10 changes a week to the side whereas you guys are really kind of bucking the trend at the moment you're basically picking your strongest side every single week can you talk us through kind of the logic behind that is that because you've got these extra bye weeks with not being in europe anymore or is it just a case of you know because of the start of the season you found yourself lower down the league and you you had to do something about it probably a little bit of the latter i would say hugh um if we were top of the log flying high then you afford yourself the luxury to to pick guys that are coming through the system in order to build your depth um but at this stage for us it's it's it's all it's it's pedal to the metal and we've got to win the next couple to to secure a good running so it's definitely a product of the of the start of the season we had but again in a year's time the picture might look differently and you'll almost approach each season as it comes and and tackle the obstacles in the best way that that you that you need to to get over them um so that's that's a diplomatic answer but that's uh it's true as well okay very cool so i'm gonna we've talked a a bit of like bulls specific season stuff that i want to talk more about you now and kind of you coming on board with the bulls and the way you like to do your business so i guess firstly can you talk us through the the you joining the balls did you get the call from akers were you invited to interview or was it hey you know i particularly want you and how did you react to that phone call when it came uh yeah i don't mind sharing this i'm sure everyone has a different way where they end up at a place and for me it was a it was a phone call between myself and Johan and um and when I got that phone call originally you know when your heart skips a beat you kind of hope and is this the one that you've been waiting for and um yeah it happened really quickly actually so it was a it was it was a quick conversation um with with Akers it was easy it was always easy for to follow someone like that and and um and assist as much as much as I can and get behind a leader like that was it was an absolute no-brainer so um it is a really smooth transition and we actually i lived in petorian or in midstream and centurion for a long time when i was working at the lions so it was almost back to the same estate just just uh driven in a different direction to get them into work so in terms of family and and convenience um we knew we knew what we were getting ourselves into and my wife and my kids are really happy so it's uh it's been a really awesome transition and extremely grateful for the opportunity to to work at an awesome union like the bulls that's great to hear so when you arrive on on kind of day one what is it like is it kind of a growing period are you going in and just kind of for the first couple of days sitting quietly at the back assessing seeing you know what's what and kind of feeling your way into it or are you on day one straight up at the front of the room with the powerpoint saying this is what we're going to do boys this is the plan for the week well if i if i could pick the way to do it it'd probably be ease my ease yourself in in pre-season and and be a fly on the wall and really assess where the way the team is at. For me, it wasn't the case.

We had a match against the Stormers the first game that I joined in Cape Town on New Year's Day, jam-packed north-south derby. So, no, there was none of that. It was pretty early front and centre. And as you can imagine, in such a short period of time, it was impossible to try and affect mass change. That would never be in the angle.

So, it was a real minuscule kind of improvement week. What's the one thing that we feel we can do better and obviously I watched a ton of games in the week leading up to the move there because I was actually on holiday when Han gave me a call. I just walked onto the beach so my holiday turned around pretty quickly. Yeah but it was to answer your question it was a really easy transition. The guys were so welcoming.

That first day is always awkward so you literally walk past everyone and introduce yourself but I always reckon you've got to tackle those things head on. um don't be shy and uh yeah that's that's it was it was a cool transition um yeah so what kind of struck you about when when you first walked in and you were watching the guys train for the first time what kind of things were like whoa okay maybe you could name one thing that stood out to you as a massive positive or something that really impressed you and maybe what was if you feel comfortable sharing what was the first thing that kind of struck you that you thought maybe need to reassess how we do that well first of all just good guys like really good guys um i'd spent a lot of time at the Lions and I felt like lots of similarities between the two um it's a it's an honest open conversation kind of environment and the guys just want to play rugbyman and have a good time with their mates it's it was still that I got that feeling from day one but also guys with exceptional quality and guys that have been in in high performance environments at the top of the game it's well recorded so it was it was really challenging but but intriguing and engaging at the same time so so that was my kind of first assessment and and also the feeling of and maybe i don't know if we want to share this but i had the feeling like wow this is a really good rugby team like within within the first couple of sessions you go geez there's something here um yeah let's how can we improve this and and my kind of first thought was um how do we like how do we just get these guys going forward that's that's probably the the big thing that that stood out to me if you get um the bulls of old going forward then that's a good place to start well sort of on that the bulls are one of those teams where the identity and the dna is like renowned around the world you say to most hardcore rugby fans anywhere in the world a bulls game plan and they have an idea in their head of what that is so when you're coming in as an attack coach are you cognizant of that is that something like this still needs to be a bulls team you know we look at say for example what um tony ball has been for the spring box and people kind of going well this is a bit different to what it is traditionally when you're going into somewhere like the bulls are you thinking okay it needs to be a bulls way or can it still be the neil way as well well that's an excellent question you so so first of all i don't believe it's it's the new way or whatever maybe you want to give it my job as the attacker is to serve the head coach um so that's it'll be never be anything different than that so johan and i have a really good understanding about how he sees the game and We've got good synergy of thought there. So the first thing was, how can I support him in getting the team playing the way that he wants to play? That was honestly, and it still is, that's a driving motivation. And together with that, you have to lean into the history, into the ethos of a place.

If you get to a place like the Cheetahs in Bloemfontein, I don't know how well you know them. They're renowned for throwing the ball around and playing width to width. And the players kind of grow up like that at school level. So in Pretoria, it is definitely different where I think the idea is that it's a one-dimensional kind of a go, like just run over you kind of approach. And there's lots of part of the game that is that.

It is confrontational. We've probably tried to add a couple of layers to that and get guys in a one-on-one position because if you've got a good player in a one-on-one position, not getting double whacked all the time, you've got a good chance of doing your thing and progressing forward. that's something else that i've heard other teams talk about as well is one-on-ones is that after like as i alluded to earlier you know we've come from an era of rugby where it was so defense was on top and the likes of you know you're sean edwards and people like that jack ninaba being kind of the big name coaches to being more of an attack coach's world and is one-on-ones is becoming a bigger thing in rugby because that's putting a lot of trust in players and it kind of forces teams to pick the more razzle-dazzle players doesn't it i mean is that something that is becoming more into rugby yeah it's it's a good observation like you see structure all over the place and guys going loops and doubles and overs and and layers of attack and stacks and swings and and what and what have you but ultimately you'll get to the game line and there be to be a defender there unless you fantastic and you can cut the line every time which really happens Yeah you guys watch a lot of rugby So for me it still about my ability to be my defender and to go forward. And everyone's got a unique skill in that, and it's about getting them in positions where they can express themselves. It's not just pass the ball to the big guy and go, if that makes sense, but being really cognizant of, hey, what am I good at?

How do I go forward? What is my kind of, my dad always used to speak about this circus act. Like you go to the circus, what you pay money for, for this, for this elephant, it better spin on that little wheel as an example. So, so that's, that's kind of the narrative that I try and create as well for the guys. It's still in its infancy to be fair.

You, we haven't had a lot of time with the guys. So it's definitely something we'll be leaning into and there's no technical or tactical stuff about that. So I don't mind, don't mind sharing that. Well, I had the good fortune to interview your dad once. and I remember him using that word, the circus acts and stuff, but kind of something I've always wondered is, having never been in an elite rugby environment, obviously, is how do you actually teach set plays and things and starter moves and first phase moves?

Is it a case of do you draw it on a whiteboard? Do you walk it through? Or are the guys high enough level you just go, okay, it's going to go 9, 12, 15 or whatever it is. How do you actually do that? Different ways.

like there's there's there's before the game or pre-season or while you're preparing for a competition or tournament where you'll play around with different shapes and and different setups and different ideas and then you'll walk it against defenders i've got maybe 30 books that are like just draw scribbles and and write ideas and try and steal with my eyes as much as possible of what people are doing and and almost like with the pictures that are being painted in the world um if that makes sense that are that's out there for everyone to see and and kind of use that as a starting point like okay defensive coaches will also see this um how do we add a layer variation on top of that or you'll have a belief of this is a certain way to do it um and you'll you'll almost draw that in whatever that thing is whether that's the stack attack whether that's playing through teams whether that's loading on the inside whether that's switches or runarounds or whatever your whatever your your preferences um i believe you always have to have to go there first thing that you believe in most um otherwise you become a copycat coach and it's difficult to answer difficult questions if if you're copying your dad was also talking about being a teacher and i saw that in action when it was at the booth you being a teacher he said guys here's a whiteboard i want to know what the requirements are for an offload remember that and the guys had to go right on the whiteboard what the two requirements are does that part of what the way you normally teach it a little bit of you know formal teaching almost apart from all the other fancy stuff uh well yes and a good observation yeah both my teachers were actually parents my mom was a netball coach and my dad was in rugby but um i think i kind of didn't did i'm not a teacher by trade my youngest brother isn't flip if i would have to do anything else that would probably be it um so there's definitely something about the learning process that um that that intrigues me and how how people retain knowledge and what's the best way to to put to portray a message um i've always found engagement it's it's the it like sits at the top and and i guess the conversations with my father around rugby and around the dinner table and seeing him practically do it um it definitely formed a part of of how i how i present and how i how i coach um i was also in sales for a while it was a medical rep so so so coaching is selling in a big way um it doesn't matter that i believe that you've got got to make them believe and so so i reckon that the the two of them um together um it's it's it's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but but i'm um yeah pretty pretty comfortable with with where with it where the teaching side of it's going and i always try and do that better this is a it's a never-ending growth process and in getting your message across awesome that reminds me of something it's fascinating and fair that you use the example of offloads because something that andre petorius told me when i spoke to him was with offloads you it's like being pregnant you're either an offloading team or you're not and i asked your dad i said are you an offloading you know do you want your teams to offload and he said firmly no he said unless you're arke sniman you're not allowed to offload so to hear that you've got like rules of what you can so are you a bit more offload positive um at one stage in japan to be fair we banned the word offload so i would say no um but it's rather like a pass after contact or a pass before contact with your kind of principles governing um the decision if that makes sense to you but again if i had to coach rugby in fiji for example you go there with a with a no offload approach you'll be out the door quicker than you went in so it's again about understanding what you have what you've got and we've got fantastic guys that can keep the ball alive um in on around that contact area so yeah it just comes with a there's got to be a base otherwise it becomes very loose in my opinion with with the team that i'm at now in south africa knowing yeah knowing the kind of culture of where we are um yeah so definitely not offload averse but but yeah weary of the risks well can i ask you you know what you think of your old team the lions who have their reputation for a few years now have been run it from your own trial line and offload like crazy i mean what does it make you think when you see that is there a part of you that's like oh i just the there's too little control in here or can you can you appreciate it in a way no i can but what i can appreciate most is you more of that uh is how many defenders that defenders they beat because that allows you the opportunity to to keep that ball rolling so and again to to beat a defender you need to create a one-on-one or a half-on-one whatever that thing is so so it's got it's a cumulative effect i reckon if you go in the door and hey boys i'm neil and we're going to offload here like it's really difficult to there's a lot of stuff that has to happen for for that kind of thing to be in place in south africa i mean now where if you're in france or to lose um you brought up with that keep it alive at all costs and sometimes it back it's backwards and it's rolling and it's popping so so that's also a form of of of offload but it's um i reckon yeah it's who you are first and and see and see if you can find ways to unlocking the defense and whatever whatever key you need i always love asking professional rugby people who they like watching firstly like how much rugby do you do you watch you know i can imagine that a lot of rugby people would be like i do not want to watch a rugby game when you get home and then there's some people who are obsessed so first question are you obsessed and secondly who are your favorite teams to watch other than the bulls uh i definitely am obsessed but i'm yeah my faith is the most important thing in my life and then my family and then and then the job so definitely in those orders so it won't be me watching tons rugby games while my kids are around um i try to compartmentalize and when i'm working it's it's like full-on work and like we've been on tour for the last month so i've been writing and thinking and phoning and and scribbling because this is the time so so definitely definitely very passionate about the game and and keen to try and figure out where it's going if that makes sense to you so not copy what the teams are doing already um trying to mentally stay ahead of where we think the game going whether it be a rule change that might lead in a certain way or um the bench that that might change or the kicking that might change whatever that thing is i'm trying to stay ahead of it as much as i can and your second question yeah go ahead um the the teams i love watching probably that french kind of um throw keep the ball alive like big guys keeping it alive quick backs exciting playing a little bit off script that would probably be my my more towards where i see the game in its most purists like you watch that stuff in slow-mo you go this is how rugby should be played in heaven lots of that stuff so definitely there rather than the the really structured like centimeter by centimeter organization of of some of the other teams so i lean more towards uh towards that kind of route i love that answer i love that and i actually had down to ask you you know what kind of trends are you seeing the kind of a a side take on that is that the the league that seems to be the most experimented is super rugby that's where we see a lot of new laws come in and like the whether we like those laws or not some of them are controversial most of them do tend to get rolled out across the rest of the world so is that a key kind of research area where like and what super rugby are doing now is probably going to be the laws in the urc in a couple of years you know is that is that a fair observation very fair and something i haven't actually thought of so thanks for that um yeah i'll definitely i'll definitely get on that uh but it's but it's a good point they they've always been um the super rugby as a franchise has always been like a really pro keeping it alive rugby high ball in play time and it was a wonderful um thing to coach in in super rugby because it was it was it was really like there was opportunities all over the place and and 36 minutes and 38 minutes ball in time plays uh that that's what that's what you want um it's been really cool seeing the other side as well now um experiencing the european side of it i've I've been fortunate to be in Japan as well, where it's completely different. No one kicks box kicks out there. It's just play all the time. So there's different trends floating around. But I think it comes back to who do you have?

What are you guys good at? And then try and match up where there's synergy between where the game is going and what you've got already. There's a lot of chat at the moment in rugby about just how high some of these scorelines are getting. I mean, we're seeing knockout rugby matches in European Cups, where both teams are scoring 40 points. I think there was more than one a couple of weekends ago.

Do you think that trend is just going to continue going up and up? Or are we going to hit a ceiling of it eventually? And it's going to come back down, you know, the yin and the yang kind of thing. You know, do you see this as being just the norm for rugby now, where 40 points in a game of rugby is normal? If you look at the history of the game, and this probably answers your previous question, am I a real passionate rugby guy?

Like it's always gone up and down. So sometimes the attack dominates. then the defenders find a way and then the defense kind of dominates and then the attack try and kick the way out and try and find a new loophole and that's normally when the rules start changing it's when the defense are on top and the guys go well we can't have this we can't have 15 12 every time so it definitely ebbs and flows um i do believe on both sides of the ball now there's the most research and analysis that have ever ever gone into it so it's like to to pull something that that the opposition hasn't seen before it's really tricky and they're probably like i read something other day there's no original idea anymore like you've it's it's already been done in some form you just either stole it or picked up something so so that's why again that that kind of a free play principle-based approach um that's what that what i prefer to because if you if you don't really know what you're doing then um how are the opposition supposed to know well one of the kind of trends that i've noticed in rugby and i've spoken to a few people about and i'd be fascinated to get your thoughts on is kicking threes you know and you talked about in japan and stuff about how their approach to it there and if i compared like a team such as the lions have kicked 20 penalties so far this season you were the balls have only kicked 10 what's your kind of philosophy when it comes to kicking threes because i've heard some people say that in kind of club rugby in the regular log season it's not really worth it do you have a view on that theory Again, it depends on who you have. If you've got an ace goal kicker, and we certainly do, we've got a couple actually, then three plus three is six, and a try on the corner is only five. So there's definitely merit in kicking threes to build pressure, 100%.

Maybe where your team is in its progression, I know back at the time when I was at the Lions, one of the big themes, I'd rather speak about that time than the present because we still have to wait and see where this thing goes. but at the time at the Lions it was we scored tries like here we scored tries so that there's a penalty no one even asks a question if bang it's going into the corner or we're tapping and going so that kind of it was the overriding theme and and I won't give too much away where we are as a as a as a bulls at the moment but but but I do believe there's a time to kick threes definitely and you'll probably see in the knockout stages it be there be a couple more pops at goal for sure yeah yeah absolutely I think Glasgow are the main team of like they never kick three i think the franco must have a very strict rule about that but kind of on that you mentioned about going to the corner and the the set piece that happens the most in rugby at the moment is line outs you where you'd see at least 15 15 to 20 line outs a game compared to scrums which is less than 10 obviously tap and goes less than that as well and yet i was fascinated to see in the men's six nations that just went that the two teams who had the fewest lineouts was france and ireland and they're the two teams who finished one and two so as an attack coach if i'm offering you a set piece which set piece are you choosing a scrum a line out a tap and go and what are the kind of the pros and cons of each well the best place to play from is is broken play so turnover transition position um depends on which area the pitch as well you see lots of box kicking happening and you get the ball back and the team's almost defending that as a as as the next set piece they are so well structured on attack and defense when that box kick happens so so the line out is still a good one um there's 50 meters of space that you can dictate the numbers within those 15 and in a game where where space is a premium you can kind of determine do i need to want to open up space in that line out or do i need to to tighten it up and and open something elsewhere. The scrum is very much topsy-turvy, up and down, difficult to get a good place to play from. Often there's a penalty and the rep blows before you get advantage for whatever reason or there's an infringement. Naturally from the scrum, that's a really good place to play from.

As the box have shown, we're really successfully as well. I've always loved line-out attack as an attack coach it's it's probably the one thing that i enjoy the most um try and be creative in and around that area okay and then final question and this is the last one that i had to ask is that uh the bulls have scored the most tries of any team in the urc so far this season does that mean you have the best attack um well well no not necessarily it's difficult to to define the best attack um Obviously, there's been guys in my seat before I joined. So this has been a good attacking team for a long time. The Bulls have scored tries over the last couple of seasons 100%. It's good.

I didn't even realize that. It's good to know because that's ultimately the goal. Four tries and win games in my role now. But we're a long way off here of where we potentially can be. And I'm really excited to see where this team can go.

As you know, I had the pleasure of spending a week in your company. and I mean you were the first guy to come and welcome me and uh say if I had any questions and stuff and one something that that caught my eye is how vocal you are you are basically the voice of the coaching staff you know Johan is very um he says he says he says what he needs to say and then he comes to the back and talks to me you know which I really enjoy but you are the guy pushing it I saw you on the on the training field as well you're the one running around with the club board and the timing and the stopwatch and you know sort of directing the traffic over there is that is Is that an accurate reflect of the way you coach and what an attack coach is supposed to coach like? Yeah, well, first of all, it's definitely, there's such a good coaching team at the Bulls. And I think in any coaching team, there's guys with different responsibilities. And he probably caught me on an attack day where it was kind of my opportunity to lead.

And on defense day, then John definitely does that. And the warm-up, Andre and the conditioning sides definitely do that. And Coach Akos' voice, when he speaks, everyone listens. So I do believe that there's definitely a balance between coaches. yeah I try to coach like that the second part of your question to really be energetic and speak my mind and try and help guys for the duration of the training session rather than assessing and kind of chatting afterwards so that's my style for sure there's different ways to skin a cat so I don't know if that's right but it's definitely yeah that's how I did you were you know just settled into your new job as director of rugby at Paul Boys High you know in the Cape you know life was good and then you got this call.

Was it a difficult decision to make? I know you said you referred to it a little bit earlier, but I mean, still, to uproot your life again, come back to Joburg, bring the family worth, you know, it must have been a huge decision. It wasn't something that you just decided on the spur of the moment. Talk to me about that. No, fair assessment, Envia.

Like you said, my family and I had just come back from Japan where we had an unbelievable time. It was so nice to be at home with the grandparents and the kids, and we were literally living 100 meters from where my parents lived at the time in Pol. so that was a it was a really like a really cool life experience and lifestyle thing for us and boys I was unbelievable to be part of that culture and that school yeah I can't speak highly enough of them and and that community but I always had the the little voice at the back of your head like geez I need I would love to compete at the at the top level again or as high as I this is not international rugby but for me this is this is this is almost like right up there so that's why decision was easy um obviously we it was it was a faith move first and and again when i just phone him and i said to share similar beliefs and had a good conversation with my wife and she said listen she can see how how excited i am about this and and she's always backed me 100 so um i had it really easy i reckon if my missus was a bit more difficult or or she didn't understand me um the way that she does and wasn't as supportive then that would have been a harder decision but it was actually that's why i said it was a simple one um because it felt it felt right we spoke to liby jans like i said earlier and we asked her about your dad coaching them and i mentioned to i think you knew i talked to her said we're going to speak to you soon and i said you must have you know had stirred into your porridge every morning you know that was kind of must have been a rugby household i mean rugby was is now sort of part of your dna talk to me about that no it is definitely my dad has coached rugby since i can remember um and being a rebellious teen i kind of gravitated towards towards cricket a bit more so so try and be the opposite of of your old man and geez i've grown up so much since then but i would i probably say sport is the is is the biggest um kind of thing that that drove our household whether it's rugby or cricket or netball or whatever hockey my my mom was always involved in sports and and we just love sport like i would i would never watch movie growing up it was always sport and it was always i probably analyzed rugby and and different sports then as a as a as a team growing up much more than i do now because i was fascinated by it and um no it's it's definitely something that it's it's been such a big part of of my life and and what an absolute privilege to work in sport and something that you love so so yeah we had lots of conversations um that start off with business and finance and holidays and it always ends up what are we doing off this left-hand scrum with my dad and my brothers? So it was a really cool apprenticeship also growing up. I had the privilege of sitting in your planning meeting for the game against Glasgow.

And I'm not going to talk about what I saw there, but what I did see that really caught my eye was the level of detail you guys go into. It's incredible. And how you sort of fit this huge, you know, I've got a thousand-piece puzzle and you just throw it all on the table. And as you start talking, this picture emerges. talk to me about that process you know you're the attack coach John is the defense coach you're Johnny there doing the technical stuff you aren't sitting there sort of you know playing you know making the decisions and the likes just talk to you about the process in general not giving away anything please don't give away any bulls plans yeah no I think that's that that's a good that's a very good question Ember because I reckon people don't realize the amount of like bulk information you start the week off with so for example if you play a Saturday game preparing for the next week by Sunday there's already the last eight or ten or four how many ever games you watch like you try and work through all of that stuff to try and find the one or two images that might have an effect on your performance on the weekend and and Johnny our technical analyst does a great job in in in taking that bulk and slimming it down a little bit then you've always got to go okay what how short is your week can I add more detail or is it a short turnaround it doesn't have to be limited and it ultimately comes it's probably i don't want to exaggerate it maybe 40 hours of work for a five minute presentation that's that's literally what it is you you narrow it down so much so that the message that goes across to a player remember he gets attacked defense scrum kickoff um there's so much information that goes into a player's head in the week and now he's on the field like he can only like i only want him to think about one or two things like if he's thinking three or four or five um then you dust in my opinion probably won the best in vf that makes sense so so it's definitely a narrowing down process um try and pull it back to your principles like i can't coach something that's completely against your core principles of attack or something or those that that that we've that we've instilled so it's again always always i'm looking looking from left and right am i still in line with with our ultimate goal here is is this deferring us from our plan or is this in line with it?

So I've always found the teams where what you think you are good at and what you potentially analyze them being slightly weaker at, that's the easiest prep weeks because it's synergy between the two. You don't have to over-explain. Boys, we like playing wide to wide. These guys are pretty tight. Boom, then their message is nice and simple.

Where other times you've got to be really creative and create a narrative because I suppose it's almost like storytelling. if you can create a narrative that people can really buy into then he'll get to the line he would have seen this picture he would have seen a couple of times on the screen there's an overriding narrative that's that's driven his his action in that moment to either play this or that or or run so that's it's all got an effect we think it might have no effect actually maybe we um we are over overdoing it but um i try to simplify things as much as possible because it's easy to bombard players with information and for me personally i didn't have to prove to the guys do i know enough about the game if that makes sense i hope that this is coming over the right way it's more about what do the players need on the day um for them to to be successful and in my opinion that's very simple clear to the point this is the plan and this is what i can expect um i see the pictures i've seen it in training i've seen in in the weekend and hopefully when when the time comes. All of those things add together for a good performance. Well, I'm glad you mentioned it because the one thing that stood out for me as well is the fact how short it is. Monday morning, you pitch up there, it's like 15 minutes and then you're done.

Then it's your own turn and it's like 10 minutes and you're done. You know, if there's a picture in your mind of players sitting in dark rooms and the overhead projectors going and they're analyzing for hours and hours and hours. There's very, very little of that. They sort of know all these things before and you just have to reinforce it, I suppose. Like you said, okay, this is monster, we're going to do this, this, that and the other exactly what you're talking about already or is there more to it than that i didn't maybe see when i was there no i mean you are right but i i i do know that what you haven't seen was the constant messaging for the last over the last for me what's it been three months it's daily what are our principles what are our focus points what are our governing principles for us to play well so that stuff gets repeated all the time that's part of the language we use all the time So then it's easy to add a layer here.

If you think about a puzzle, you only need one piece. You don't have to do the whole puzzle from the get-go. So that's probably why you felt that, geez, this was like limited information. And I'm so happy that you said that because it needed to be limited. And if you said to me, geez, there was a lot of detail and holy moly, how do the players retain all of that stuff, then I would be worried.

But that's really good feedback, actually, that it was short and sharp and pungent. and you always try to get that balance right. You've got to give them what they need. That's probably the biggest thing for me. Coming back to the teacher theme, do you give them homework?

Do you say, all right, boys, for tomorrow morning, I want you to tell me three things about your opposite number? Or do you say, here's these three topics that the line outs, the scrums, and the restarts or whatever it happens to be and say, just revise this overnight and we'll come in and I'll expect you to know it for tomorrow morning That actually not a bad idea Hugh I used that before in pre times that that similar kind of what when while you building building the kind of base um in season not so much and also for me like the guys they we can see there's there's lots of guys on huddle reviewing trainings there's there's like informal conversations rather than than homework if that makes sense um and we we're really fortunate in our group the guys are students of the game they really are so it's um it's nice when when when when you know the play comes to you don't you don't even have to ask the question and and i reckon if you if you're there as a team where the guys are they're hungry for information they're looking at things they're seeing the pictures just then it's then it's then it's then it's a wheel that's that's turning in the right direction so and not homework per se and especially not in at the part of season where we are but it will be geez boys remember to watch training review so that when we have that in informal chat tomorrow it can be geez what did you pick up there um did you see your body shape on that one and where were you scanning pre pre pre ball on this one like then you can have the chats and otherwise it's a it's a guessing game for myself and and and the the players naturally so a review of training is a massive part of our of of coaching these days well i don't know how other teams do but um it definitely is for teams that like that your hun coached like here there's real value there um of of reviewing training properly so that, so that you can have good conversations with guys. I really want to get really techy now about like, what angle do you film training from? Do you have drones and stuff and like spreadsheets and stuff? But I'm sure Enver will tell me that I'm not allowed to, you're not allowed to tell me those things.

No, you can, I'll answer that. The drone view is the best. It gives you that lovely aerial shot. And we're always looking at for ways to get like better images. Cause if it's like a player does something on the field, if you can show him that image and the guys on the phones all the time, That's the learning tool these days.

You have to have a visual, okay, this is what the coach means. They're saying it and they're hearing it. And if you see it, like, whoa. So we're very fortunate. Again, our technical department is top class.

And John does a great job to give us good images. John is the most multi-skilled person in the Bulls team, let me tell you that. He can do so many things. Yeah, and he's a good guy as well. So that helps.

It's one of those jobs, isn't it? It's like, what do you do for a living? I'm the drone pilot for the Bulls. like that kind of thing like as sad francais they when they bring the ball on for restarts they bring it on a little pink van and drives it to the point and it's like imagine that's your job like i'm the i'm the remote control van driver for sad francais well the bulls over the susu bucky the dude does that you you must watch tv more i'm sorry good shout out to susu the enemy i love that yeah yeah of course i mean like i said i'm a bull but died in the wool i know i know where to go with this i wanted to ask you something else you said students of the game you mentioned huddle just tell us what huddle is quickly yeah so that's a it's an online platform where training gets uploaded to the player at his own time and as his own convenience on any device um can flick there there's different ways to do we do we just we use huddle and at this stage and it's one where the coach can also see how much time the player's put into into his review work um so not it's not like being a policeman but it's good to know that geez the guys are clocking up the hours they're spending time um in the game and and there's guys with young families so again it won't be there won't be a kind of whip at the back if you don't do it but um it's just real good confirmation for us as coaches and it's a wonderful learning tool so so you share you share on there there's questions getting asked there that maybe you don't always have the time for in person during the day so again it's just another way to teach it's another way to to retain information to to learn so that so that there's um a shared mental model in smm there's a shared mental model by the time you go onto the pitch you've seen all these images but you look left and right if you you know the guys on the same same mind space as you so something gets called a system of play whatever that thing is everyone's thinking the same that's that's probably why we do it it's fascinating that you mentioned that about like being able to see what's the kind of the habits are of the players going into reviewing these things can i ask you like if you're okay to share like a specific player like like Vili LaRue, like he's thought of as such a thinker of the game, like a chess player out on the rugby field. Is that your experience with him?

Like how much does he put into his analysis? I won't give that away if you don't mind me, just in terms of the time. But Vili, along with so many other guys, like he is such a deep thinker of the game. Like he's on the training pitch. Like if he's in a good space, he's so switched on all the time, always looking, always scanning.

Often the odd moan because his standards are so high and he has a full dip at the guys if they don't see the same things as he does. And he definitely lifts the standard of the group. So, no, it's been wonderful to work with him. And, again, that's – you mentioned, Billy, but there's so many guys in our team that are like that. But he's definitely the most vocal guy that I've ever worked with.

And he's a sharp guy, good guy, good rugby brain, and, yeah, it's a privilege to coach him. We're going to have Kennedy Timber on this podcast pretty soon. And his speciality is obviously skills and transition. Talk to me about transition. You mentioned earlier how important it is.

You prefer attack from broken play in transitions and the like. What does it mean? What does transition mean? And how do teams actually practice that as well? Yeah, it's becoming a lot more technical than it used to be in the past.

Definitely. And Kennedy's done a really good job with us in giving us some clarity around exactly what needs to happen when the ball gets turned over. So a transition is any time it goes from the opponents are attacking, they lose it you get it and now you're attacking it's that moment of of i've regained position so it comes in different shapes and sizes can be a scrum turnover it can be overthrown the line out knock a chip a kicker whatever that situation is and there's definitely um overriding principles that you try and put in place it can't it's not always going to be perfect because it it cannot be science but um i think if you get people in the right positions and you give yourself a better chance of executing those transitions into an outcome without giving too much away. That's probably my belief. And then lastly, something else I was wondering about, you know, rules, laws, don't do this, don't do that.

I saw very little of that in my time at the Bulls. But again, I thought it was, it might probably be because they know these things anyway. And you would, I just saw one instance where you specifically said, guys, look at this, there's that. And there you gave away the penalty um but what i did notice is how intelligent these players are and how well they are already they already informed almost of all aspects of the game but rules specifically how do you make sure the guys don't give away penalties they're aware of the rules i'm not talking about obvious stuff that don't be in front of the ball but little technical stuff that might end up hurting you and how do you teach that well we we probably could do more of that as rugby coaches and again every team is different so so it's staying abreast like on top of where the rules are it's it's a critical part of the game you can't play the game if you don't have a deep knowledge of the game it's that's like playing cricket and not knowing what these little three things behind me are for um so so you definitely need to have a like a good insight of the game and and the like we fortunately guys have been playing rugby and and been students of the game for a long time so there's a good general understanding if there's something that becomes a trend we'll definitely mention it clear it up and so that so that everyone understands where we are in this it's a huge part of the game but something interesting you said there's like like we try not to say don't like don't do that don't do that don't do that it's more of um what do you want me to do that's kind of the messaging do this look for this um opportunity here be careful of that that's probably the the lingo we we use more yeah there was exactly the lingo you could be careful yeah i remember yeah yeah so don't is a oh don't um the retention there goes out the window i think yeah every human if you if you hear that word it's like stop it's like a red light but um if you tell him like teach him and show him what to do this is a good clear picture here you can steal the ball um whatever whatever that thing we run run early off the line out this is legal this is what we should do rather than don't break the ten whatever that whatever that thing is i'm excited a little side note no i like that i like little side notes and let's talk about little side notes let's just briefly you talk about the culture at the Bulls. Lots of questions about that.

We know there was a lot of unhappiness a year ago. A couple of players left the Bulls. I know that's not really part of your purvey, but still, you know, losing a guy at the caliber of Wilkulo and Arrua Norqia, David Giel. Are you guys planning ahead to make up for that? And how do you do that?

I mean, do you know who to look for? How does that work? Or do you have any input in that? Or is it more of the head coaches and CEOs responsibility? Well, Akers, his kind of leadership is definitely to have a conversation with all parties.

And that's why it's so wonderful to work with him. He definitely includes everyone in that thinking process. And then he's really good at making decisions as well and kind of giving that leadership and the direction moving forward. But you absolutely have to think three, four, five years into the future. Without that, you'll end up in a spot where you've lost 15 guys, haven't replaced them with anyone, haven't brought anyone through, and then what?

So there's definitely, there's lots of technicality and thinking and like deep thinking that goes into that and planning what you have, What does the future look like? What is the Springbok campaign for the next couple of years? How many of those guys? And so there's so many elements. And Edgar, the CEO, and Johanna especially, they've done a fantastic job along with Neil Jacobs that does recruitment at the Bulls now.

So they're on top of it, absolutely. There's constant conversation around that as well, Envia. So it's not something anyone's just taking as we go and let's see what we have. It's like really specific, and we've got to make sure that we're ready for the future because other teams are doing exactly the same. So you can't get left behind for an instance.

I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time with Edgar and he went out of his way to show me around and tell me how things work and everything. Talk to me about the Bulls as an organization. You mentioned drones and I saw the S&C and everything else. Talk to me about the professional side of the Bulls as a team. What you found there and what your impressions were.

unbelievably professional um and it doesn't take a lot of people to to make it a professional you don't need five ceos in my opinion like there's real good leadership there's good direction um the guys need they know what is expected of them as a as a staff member and we also know that there's support from the top um along with the pressures of a professional industry and a performance based industry no one is is a averse to that and and we all understand that but um there's always there's been really good support um good thinking and constant conversations constant dialogue um we're hardly ever in the dark and wondering so from a professional standpoint it's it's top class that's that's why the union's been been at the top level level of the game for so long is it there's really good governance and it's and i'm sure it's come from from a long way but um the guys that are that are that are leading that ship now is um yeah it's really it's a real cool place to work at and yeah i can imagine you anything else no no more questions your honest so new player is they guilty or not guilty what do you plead uh i don't know what i don't know how to answer that uh i would say that uh it's guilty of making my rugby brain even bigger you thank you for that that was such an enlightening conversation we didn't give any any uh secrets away despite you's best attempts at subterfusion but we we snook at him quite easily. That's a harbinger for this weekend. So, Hugh, thank you for making time for us. And honestly, thank you for being so straightforward. And welcome to the Bulls.

We're in good hands. No, thank you so much. And Hugh and Envia, the quality of your questions was absolutely top class, thought-provoking. And I'll definitely, I need to revise my answers, the ones that I'm still thinking about. So, no, thank you very much.

And, yeah, thanks for the show, Envia. It's lovely watching this from afar as well and great to be part of the conversation. So yeah, just really appreciate it. I have your time today, gents. This is the Loose Pass Rugby Podcast, only on Megaphone Rugby.

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