Is Everyone Forgetting How Good France Actually Is? | Rugby Rundown

Welcome back to the Rugby Rundown with Jan de Kooning from Rugby Unfiltered. Jan, it was an interesting weekend. You wrote a very, very good article in Rugby 365. I'll put the link down in the description below. You said a very special time for South African rugby.

Talk to me about that firstly before we get into the nitty-gritty. Yes. Let's just correct the quote. the quote comes from Kevin Foote, his under 20 coach. He said, rugby is in a very special place in South Africa.

Now, what he means by that is currently we are back-to-back World Cup champions. We are back-to-back rugby champions. That's the Suns Art tournament. We are back-to-back under 20 world champions. And we also are back-to-back seventh world champions.

Then also, in the past 12 months south africa the spring box have beaten every single top tier tier one country uh there's all six six nations countries in a 12 month period it's the first time ever that's happened and you beat all six six nations teams and all three sons are opponents so that's the top nine teams there's a whitewash over a 12 month period it's never been done before so africa is the first team to do that usually you lose one test year or there at the end of the year so africa has gone 12 months without losing. I know there's some more to come at the end, but I think we're on 11 unbeaten run. Certainly from my perspective, it's the first time I've seen, I mean, I've been in the game for 45 years and I've seen some really special times. You know, we talk with 95, we talk with 23, you know, I've seen some very, very special times. Even as a non-journalist, I mean, I saw the 74 Lions, I saw the 76 all black tour i mean i was at every game at ellis park so i've seen so special i've had some really i was i've been privileged to enjoy some really good rugby in my lifetime but i think we are in a special place now as as african rugby in general is in a very special place i mean the the conveyor belt is coming through the talent of identification is working through you know there's there's some really uh good stuff that that is falling into place and it's not by chance i think uh you know there's a lot of needs to go to people behind the scenes you know i spoke to dave vessels last night when they came back from georgia uh and kevin foot and russie and you know even real liberals and mark alexander as much as we'd like to criticize them they're doing something right just by allowing these people to put systems in place and these conveyor belts have been created for years i mean it started way back i think in 2013 already russie started it but it's now bearing fruit and i think back then when i spoke about nobody wanted to believe them we all know what happened in 2016 2017 when we dropped down to number six in the rankings and everybody wanted to know what happened to this conveyor belt the reality is that that places when that system was in place but it wasn't functioning properly because the right people wasn't running it at the time and then russie came back and dave vessels came back and so they got the right people you know you know i think dave mentioned last night that what happened is when the rebels closed down in australia suddenly given food became available suddenly dave got back to south africa so all that fell in place and those people are back and the right people is in place at the moment so So the system was there.

It just wasn't perhaps managed the way it should have been or as effective as it should have been. And now it's been managed. And now the conveyor belt's working. You know, at some stage, there's going to be a bottleneck of insanely good talent at the top end of South African rugby. But, you know, rather that than where we were in 2016 and 2017.

Yeah. Now we can see, we can clearly it's already happening. So that's why I said the other, I don't know, I saw a stat and I can't remember the exact percentage of how many of the current springboks are actually part of the elite player development program that RASI initiated. That's an interesting one. And also, somebody said here, and that went to about the structure of the Curry Cup.

We have to create more opportunities for players to play because we've got so much talent. We're basically raising players to go play for other countries. That's what it comes down to. If we can't figure out a way to make it worthwhile for them to play rugby in South Africa. And that goes down to the Curry Cup structure, I suppose, which is a story for another day.

But you mentioned talking to Dave Vessels and Kevin Foote last night and that you were at the airport delayed for several hours. It's an interesting story behind that. This junior spring was coming back to Cape Town. What happened there? That's a story, a big one.

Yeah, so what happened is, obviously, they arrived all in block at O'Artambo and then they had a media briefing there with Mark Alexander and all the big guys there. So the big arrival press conference was at O'Artambo. then they all got connecting flights to different parts of the country you know so they dispersed basically so the cape town contingent which included kevin footer and dave vessels and you know the cape town contingent of players and officials they got on a on a plane on a flight uh fly safe air uh not not i'm not mentioning it because uh it's something bad with fly safe air just fly safe air the flight is a sponsor of sorry so all these guys were on fly safe air and they were about over Blomfontein they were flying back around about Blomfontein that's in the air not in the ground I would hope so yeah we've seen some planes land on highways but this wasn't the case so some lady collapsed in the aisle Dave Vessel saw this here uh gestured to the team doctor the under 20 team doctor to come and assist this woman and by the time the doctor got to her she had no pulse and he resuscitated in the aisle in the mid flight he resuscitated this woman the captain turned the flight around because it was quicker back to job but then to cape town he turned the flight around and they dropped off and they managed to the doctor managed to resuscitate this woman and obviously she's now receiving further treatment you know they don't just send you home you actually go to hospital uh but yeah so what happened is they had to disembark all the luggage because they had to find her luggage first and that takes it's not the first time it's happened that somebody falls ill on the flight they turn the flight around they go back to jobit uh it's happened uh quite prominent quite a couple of times and so this this woman was then taken to hospital her luggage disembarked other luggage load and so a flight that was supposed to arrive just before four o'clock uh yesterday afternoon eventually arrived at quarter past seven last night uh and yeah i won't mention the player but one of the very prominent players in the team when i asked him afterwards uh so you can have a nice evening sleep now he says yeah no gonna be a braai you know he wanted to be home and have a braai and that's all he wanted to do so the fact that there's gonna the braai is gonna start at nine o'clock at night it doesn't matter he's so i'm sure there'll be a few uh liquid refreshments involved in that braai and as sarah africans happen to do when they have a good braai but yeah i mean they eventually arrived and everybody is safe and it's just amazing that they were fortunate that they had this doctor one doctor on the flight you know so it's fantastic it's and that's how I actually joked with Kevin Foudreau said you guys getting quite used to waiting and that's when the story came out when I asked him and they explained to us what really happened but you know because you remember at the final before the France final lightning delayed him for about 45 minutes you know so the final started and now even joke with him on saturday night i said to him um yeah the weather played along for us because we want to do what the spring box and the under 20 team uh and and he laughed about that you know and then last night again you know and i said to him it's like you guys are getting quite good at um waiting on airports you know so on airplanes and places and so he said no and then i explained but yeah it's a very interesting time it's a very very good team same as last year with Riley's team these guys are such a wonderful, refreshing bunch of guys I think also the culture in that team is very, very good, you can just see it you know, I mean I don't even mind them all calling me Oom anymore because, you know, it's just a culture thing, a respect thing and they are an amazing bunch of guys and really talented, so. Well newsflash, Jan, you're as a Oom, I am also a Oom Yes, it's now my proper but let's talk about the going back to the spring box which i want to talk about the under 20s just now but firstly go back to your article because the interesting point about that article was the day the telegraph in london wrote that south africa should the team that beat england should be the number one team in the world the beat that has beat scot team that beat scotland should be number two and the team that beat wales should be number three but the best part of that is that the actual best springbok team hasn't even played yet so let's talk about that first and then i want to put that into context because i'm thinking you know everybody's focused on how good south africa is and how good in omar as new zealand is and we i think we're losing track a little bit of how good france is we shouldn't lose sight of that but let's talk about that statement about south africa's you know juggled sides and rotated sides being as actually the best teams in the world i mean that's a bit far-fetched don't you think yeah i think uh it was said in jest i think the tone of of the comment I extracted from an article. It was said in jest, but the reality is one team beat England, a team that showed about 10 or 11 changes beat Scotland, and then another team that showed as many changes with four debutants beat Wales 43-0, the whitewashed Wales again.

So we've in the last two tests we've scored 116 points against Wales without reply. you know that that says that says um that that's a point if if you want to put it in context that's a almost a point a minute against wales in the last two matches because 120 minutes well 160 minutes apologies no it's not quite my math has let me down there but so it's probably a point two minutes or something or two points every three minutes something like that but but it's amazing you know 116 points in two matches without reply that says one thing perhaps where wales is in their development process and let's not just say they they yes they are struggling at the moment but i think they are building uh and i'll get to france later just now for you but i think the reality is as he said from the outset before the series started he's going to rotate every game he's going to keep rotating in these games while he wants to win and while everybody wants to win He never played to lose. The priority for him is rotating. Give people as much game time as test them in tough conditions, in test match conditions, so you can see who can make the cut and who can't. And now that we're going to Argentina, so this week's a bye.

So next week we're going to Argentina. And you're going to see a lot of changes again. People are going to be surprised. You know, Peter Steff is going to be rested. Sia will be back.

Eben will be back. I think Sasha might even be back. There's talk that Sasha might be back, that he's fit enough, that he's recovered. I'd be hesitant to bring him back but you know if his knees up for it then you know it's ankle isn't it ankle this is his ankle yeah yeah apologies so you know there's there'll be changes again you know so maybe that it's our fourth team it's going to be Argentina you know so but in all seriousness no it's we are real a team if you're going to talk about that top team hasn't played as a combination this year yet and is not even close to playing. I think we'll see our first team, our A team, we'll see at Alice Park in late August.

Yeah, it's actually not next weekend. It's the weekend after. There's two weekends off now. The game's only on the 7th of August or the 8th of August. So it's two weeks away.

So just on that, there's a lot of talk about Sascha. We saw our friend Ari Hoogart send me a video and I posted it last night about Sascha after the game. Cup game actually jumping on his ankle, showing that he's fine. And then the question became, Rassi mentioned that he would allow Springboks to play for their franchises against the New Zealanders as and if needed. You know, if a player needs game time, he'll send him and allow him to play and the likes.

I don't want to be a franchise coach at the moment because I know when they will know who's actually going to be playing for them. Because interesting enough, both the Stormers and the Bulls play the day after they play against New Zealand, they have to play against the Cheetahs in the Curry Cup. So that's going to be a test of their depth. I mean, who are they going to actually be playing? And they don't even know who they're going to be allowed to pick.

But that's a story for another. If you were wanting to ease Sascha back into it, would you play him against Argentina or would you play him against Stormers? Stormers on a Friday, Argentina on a Saturday. Which one of those two do you think is a better approach? Yeah, there's a risk in both.

So let's not beat about the bush. The Curry Cup is a development tournament now. It's openly, Saru is now openly punting as a development tournament. It's listed as under 23. Most of the teams play largely under 23 players.

So the Curry Cup is largely under 23 players. You're allowed seven players over the age of 23. And I think four can start and three on the bench or something like that. So that's why you will see there's some really... And this is a full franchise.

I'm not talking about the other teams. You know, the other teams play their Curry Cup teams because that's all they've got. But the franchise do not play. So the Lions, the Bulls, Stormers, they've got, I know that Skara playing, when Skara plays, the Stormers age bracket goes from 25 to 35. But, you know, they've got some senior players, some established players, but by and large, it's under 23.

They're using it as a development tournament. So even so, Sascha can get a tackle in a game, a step wrong or something. You don't need Argentina to do that. you can get some very energetic youngster intending no ill will tackle you and you start hooks in the blade of grass in the wrong way and you're gone so that risk will always be there so what would i do um get him back into the box system because he needs to play with a box you know so i think i think that would be he will be training with him remember like you said it's going to be two weeks um two saturdays of so this week the players are off so nothing happens this week so they probably announce the team over the weekend or closer to the weekend or sunday and then that team will get together and fly off to argentina so they they'll be in training for for two weeks so he'll be back back in the box system yeah and he's fine that's an interesting question then because if he's not playing for the stormers you left with yuri matia and now the big question is a guy like jakin ahmed will he be allowed to play for the for the the Stormers do you think? Will he be released enough or early enough?

You know, we saw how good he is in the under-20 championship. Yeah, the under-20 players will definitely be released to their franchises. So they are being released to their franchises. I'm sure they'll get this week off as well, just to look their families in the eye again. And a couple of buyers.

And then they'll be playing for the franchises. So yeah, we'll see a lot of the youngsters playing for their franchises. Yeah. I'm just wondering, will they play against the All Blacks or will they play against the Tutas on the same weekend? That's all I'm getting at.

Yeah. The Tutas match, that's why I said to you that the Curry Cup is under 23 players. That's a different team. The Storm is a URC team. Trains differently Even though they train at the same venue there two separate teams Just like the Bulls will have two separate teams training and preparing for the All Blacks The Lions have two separate teams You can see the Lions carry cup team You can see there's none of the URC players.

There are very few of the URC players. So the four franchises keep playing the All Blacks. They've got two different teams. One's preparing. I mean, Jan Akerman said to us after the Curry Cup, after the URC final, that these players are going to build up towards the All Black game.

and then they stop again and they start a new pre-season. So it's like a very stop start and it'll be like it for all four franchises. Yeah, it's a problem. It will be up to the Stormers management to decide where those players play. Do they play in the Curry Cup or do they prepare with the URC team?

Yeah, my question is that these are under 20 players, so they're actually qualified to play in the Curry Cup as under 23 players. But they're so good, they will probably play in the URC side, you know, where I'm going with it. That's more... That is a question that's up to John Dobson and his management as well. They want to do, I mean, there's the option they can actually play them in an under-20 Curry Cup, there's an under-20 tournament that's also ongoing.

So some of these players might even play there, you know, so you can spread, you can give these guys proper game time now. You can spread them in an under-20 tournament between the Curry Cup and in some cases against the All Blacks and then start preparing for the URC again. All right, now, we talked about the Springboks not having played their first team. That's been a bit of a bugbear of mine. People are going to say, oh, no, NBA going on about it again.

But it is a problem for me. I'm worried about the fact that our best team is only going to be playing against the All Blacks together for the first time. Whereas the All Blacks have had plenty of opportunity to own their team and get to the best players and everything else. The RACC doesn't seem to be bothered about that. I'm not questioning him in any way.

He obviously knows better than we do. I'm just wondering about that because we saw what a lack of cohesion can do. We saw it against Scotland with those gaps they hit us with on defence. We saw it against England. It was a bit of hazard.

And it looked a lot better in terms of defence against Wales. You know, you don't know the team by chance. But the point is that lack of cohesion. You know, a guy like Sia hasn't played. How when last did he play?

Lourdes, how when last did he play? Irwin, how when last did he play? So never mind the fact that they haven't played together. They haven't played at all. You know, that to me is a bit of a worry.

So Rassi is quite open about and honest about that. He said the rotation and testing players, so he likes to refer to it as testing players under pressure and test match circumstances, which is fine. You know, you can see who can cope and who can't cope. So Vuzi Moyo, Rashi said he had a nervous game. A lot of people raved about him.

Rashi was quite honest. He said he think he had a nervous game. He admitted that some other people might see it differently. He just thought Vuzi had a nervous first half, and then he settled down. So the youngster maybe is not ready for the All Blacks yet.

So I'm just using an example. It doesn't mean he's a bad player. It means he needs a bit more time, a bit more senior game. And also, I mean, Visi, we know, you know, he had an injury as well. And so he had a disruptive season so far.

The same applies to him. Russ is quite open about it. Now he knows who these guys are ready for the All Blacks. And he knows that cohesion is an issue. So he admits that.

It's fine. he says but he was willing to pay that price and so these guys are now going to start training that's why these other guys are now getting a chance so they can see who of them are ready to play for the all blacks and going to argentina is going to be a really big test you know so you're going to need those guys to be on top of their game so i've got a funny feeling that our winning streak is going to come to end uh in argentina because apart from the fact that most these guys lack game time and cohesion is going to be an issue um you know that it's going to be a very different team that that's going to need but russia will find a way i mean we didn't get to where we are now just by chances russia will work on something and if we lose that game it's fine you know it's a i wouldn't call it a friendly i know in soccer they call it international friendly so i don't think there's not any going to be anything friendly about that game uh but it's yeah it'll cost us ranking points that's for sure but uh right now russia's got a bigger plan and i like to refer to this as the bigger picture you know just take a step back and look at what russia's doing he's painted this whole picture for us so clearly and half the time we we don't look at the bigger picture because we look at that one stroke that looks like it's a bit out of place before you see the next stroke that comes in the next stroke and suddenly now the picture starts appearing and I think that's where we should be looking at. Russia is busy with the bigger picture. If we win the World Cup next year, everybody will say he's a genius again. Yeah, I mean, you say we might lose against Argentina, I almost fell off my chair when you said that.

Because, you know, Argentina only won one out of the three games in this nation's championship. They're not in the best of form. Yes, and that's exactly my worry. We're going to go there with an untested team, a bit of a rusty team, almost call it that. And if that team ran out against the All Blacks, we'd be annihilated, I would think.

But that's just my opinion. What do I know? And also, you talked about ranking points. We said the other day, he likes being number one in the world. And we saw against Wales, we scored no points, no moving up or down, because Wales is so far behind us on the rankings, it doesn't make a difference.

But New Zealand moved up because they beat Ireland convincingly. And they scored a lot of points in a moving up on the... At least for us, when you play against Argentina, we might lose points. New Zealand doesn't play against an international team, and they might not overtake us. That's getting a bit risky if you ask me.

But yeah, let's move on. I want to talk to you about France. And I'm worried that we're so obsessed with what happens to South Africa and New Zealand. You know, greatest rivalry. All we're talking about is bubbling under nicely.

Talking of which tomorrow on the Lac-Rugby Pot we'll have Martin Devlin again. Good value. I have to wake up, stay up very late tonight to be able to talk to him. But anyway, that's the story for another day. I'm worried about the end of the year, for example.

France plays Fiji, South Africa and Argentina. That isn't that difficult except for South Africa. That's going to be a humdinger. New Zealand plays the opposite of Wider. They play Scotland, England and Wales.

And then I'm a little worried. I think there's a very good chance that New Zealand might end up top of the log in the northern hemisphere with France. And we, with all our building depth and everything else, might not even be in the final. What do you think about that? yeah no it's a reality it's a possibility um that we we might be overtaken by new zealand the other and it's it's one of those things russian said even before everything started the and again you know we i'll keep referring to the bigger picture he was well aware of the bigger picture but he needed to build and find get certain answers to certain questions understanding where these players are and he knew that it might cost us the chance of finishing top of this.

He was willing to give that up, that we don't win the inaugural rugby championship or nation's championship apologies, nation's championship. So Rassi is well aware of that and I think we shouldn't be too shocked if that happens. Again, look at the bigger picture what what is russia preparing for he's preparing for the world cup next year uh yes the the greatest rivalry is a big moment it's a big event and we are going russia's going to go full blast to use a john dobson phrase he's going to go full metal jacket jacket full metal jacket for that uh tournament so and then then he'll start rotating again and test players and stuff so but let's let's say for argument's sake there's another interesting possibility let's say say for argument's sake we do manage to sneak uh beat italy sneaker win against france and sneaker win against ireland uh and we finish top of the southern hemisphere standings we we're gonna end we could end up playing france in the middle of november and at the end of november because france is most likely going to finish top of the northern hemisphere stand so we can play france twice in november uh as part of the nation championship that that that also a possibility so yes there two very good possibilities and it going to either be one of that we going to play France twice in November or we just not going to play for second or third place Yeah You're right there. And I like the fact that you said we might sneak a win against Italy. Thank you for that.

Listen, let's quickly talk about the under-20s. That game luckily was a bit delayed. But once again, I thought the TMOs just are starting to ruin the matches now, honestly. and it's the influence is too big. It looks like the guy on the field, the referee on the field, is almost too scared to make a decision and leaves everything up to the TMO and the TMO just interferes as and when he likes, willy-nilly.

What were your thoughts on the role of the TMO in that final? Yeah, I think he definitely overreacted. So we spoke about it last night as well. So the one way to try, where the finger tips uh um i i think there's i've got no argument with that one i know a lot of people say it didn't look like he touched it the other thing is if you look at it as they slow it down enough you can actually see his fingers bend back like this uh and it's for such a brief second that he might not even have felt that he touched it you know it's one of those things you don't realize you're touching the ball you're up in the air there's all sorts of things happening around you you don't realize you touch the ball but the the fact is if you slow it down enough and like everything with his TMOs, if you slow it down enough, you can find a picture that suits your narrative. So I'm not going to argue with that.

The ones around the high tackle, we've got to remember that there's a sternum rule was in place. So the sternum rule was in place. So you can't tackle the guy on the ball anymore. You can't tackle him on his chest anymore. And again, you know, yes, maybe he was overzealous.

maybe he wanted to prove a point that he could be a good tmo and he wants to improve his ranking in the refereeing world uh the fact is he he did what he what the law says he must do you can't tackle so so some of those things where we say but there was on the ball there was on the chest unfortunately for that tournament that specific tournament the law says below this tournament so if you if you If you tackle anything, I think the best way to describe it, anything nipple line or above, you're in trouble. You might not detail it, you don't get near the head, but the law says it's turn him. That's the law that applied. And I think that also confused and created a bit of confusion for a lot of people who may not have realized that that law was in place for that tournament. And the Akin Ahmed swan dive, is that illegal?

You're not allowed to jump over players? Whether he jumped or not is two different things. So I know that he said to his teammates that he didn't dive. And I looked at that so many times. And I only have access to the visions that they put on television.

I didn't see what the TMO saw in his box. From what I saw and the different angles, the only time he left his field was when the guy hit his ankles. In the good old days, that would have been called a grass cut. So the fact that the guy went that low for him could have been the result that he knocked his feet up. Did he jump?

No, I don't think he jumped. But yeah, that's what I will definitely argue with. I would like to see what the TMO saw before our past judgments. But that is not as clear cut as other cases. But talking about referees, When last did he see so much drama than after that game against Argentina, Argentina against England?

The poor referee was caught right now. And it's Angus Gardner, one of the better refs, probably one of the best refs, referees. Argentina did the same thing against Spain in the World Cup final, the soccer World Cup final. They seem to be a bit on edge sometimes, and even Contrapone walking out of the press conference. Just briefly, what's your take on that?

Yeah, I saw worse performances. uh russi's favorite referee had another shocker there's some videos going around on social media about a certain australian referee and uh you know so yeah how some of these guys i again you know i don't know how because because they don't make it public you don't know how they rate their performances you know they say there's remedial work it's all good and fine telling us there's remedial work they're analyzing and they rate him we don't know how they rate him so i mean the players we all give ratings to the players and a hundred people give different ratings and russi will tell you like russi was honest he said vusi had a nervous game that was russi's rating he rated the players he rated the you know he spoke about what the two visa brothers did he spoke about the other rookies and and then you know so so but we don't know exactly how they because this is like a closed shop you know and that that's the problem i have with that unless they are more transparent about how they rate the referees and and what these performances you know it's all fine and well for nigel to sit in his little uh hockey uh with another and and two days later sit and analyze these guys and and and tell us about his cows and and whatnot and then say oh but according to the law that's fine i mean that's that's one thing that according to the law is right the reality is uh i think there was there's some massive blunders which are not being addressed in public that should be addressed in public and that will you know it's fine and well saying to angus whoever maybe you could have done that call differently if you say that in private and maybe that's but you know we i think the game has become too sanitized in that regard is that you can't criticize him don't criticize him and if a coach says anything uh then suddenly he's a a baddie you know we've had two coaches recently banned because they uh one was banned from a match days i think it was italy uh italy yeah he was banned because uh he was a bit upset uh so so these guys are not robots they it's an emotional event i mean we get emotional on a saturday afternoon when we watch the tv imagine those guys when you know win or lose you know it's important for them you know so yeah i i think if there's one thing in the game that i feel is is lacking is transparency around refereeing rating and what happens if they don't do well and you know are they because next year the guy's not playing not involved in a massive officiating this weekend and if you dare say that um he's being dropped or axed or stood down then they will say to you, I wasn't going to referee anyway. It's just part of the norm. That sort of smoke and mirrors rubbish must stop. Just be honest and transparent about exactly how you deal with guys that make mistakes.

You know, they're saying, the thing with Quesada, for example, is to protect the referee from online abuse and the likes. Because if the coach sees his way to openly criticize him, then it opens the door for the trolls and everyone else. And it's a real thing. I mean, the guys get death threats and everything else. But like you just said, if it was more transparent, then would afterwards World Rugby would say, listen, this and that, that guy had a poor game and whatever.

Like the players get ranked like you just said. You know, maybe it'll take the heat out of it, almost. If, you know, the ref did make a mistake. Yes, we did rank him. He wasn't as good as he should have been, that kind of a thing.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't have the answers. It's just an interesting thing. Jan, I have to let you go. We've been at it for a while now.

So thank you for that. Thank you for making time for us. I know you spent a late night at the airport and everything else. So yeah, thank you for making time for us.

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