Why the Springboks vs All Blacks Greatest Rivalry Tour Is Set to Be Brutal | Martin Devlin

But I still think it pales in insignificance to what's about to come around the corner. It's like the thriller in Manila, except it's in Cape Town. But I think Dave Rennie in the back of his head would know that if he goes and just shits the bed in South Africa twice in a row, everything changes immediately. It's a violent team, make no mistake about it. Ali said that when Frazier hit him the first time, it took away his breath and he never got it back.

I mean, the entire fight. We haven't played our best team together yet, and that's a big problem. And also, many of those springboks that we want to play in that first year haven't played at all. Like, Sia's been injured for a while. Iban hasn't played almost any rugby this year.

I'm very worried about that, to be perfectly honest. And I think, you know, you want to replace a fan belt with, you know, pantyhose. That'll work, but it's not the same thing. What I love is that we can sit here as sports fans and get so goddamn excited about eight men packing down against eight men. And that drone shot, which is to me the greatest shot in rugby, is the one that looks down on top of that massive humanness, that spider web of bodies that are crushing and pushing and trying to dominate and exert on each other.

This is the Lecker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the Lecker Rugby Pod. Martin Devlin is back and I've been looking forward to this one because I want to give him some needle, I'm sure. It's because I wanted to ask him what he learned from this fake championship that was finished just now. I mean, the All Blacks sort of, you know, blowing their eyes down.

We're all getting jittery down here in South Africa. What were your thoughts? The number one on the championship, and what did the All Blacks look like? Look, greetings again, gentlemen. I always love coming on the podcast.

You know that. Haz, great to see you. M-Dub, great to see you. Look, the word is O, O for optimism. You know that, and you've heard this many times, I'm sure, coming out of New Zealand.

It was one of the key message phrases that Dave Rennie used at the very start of his tenure as coach. And I think it's fair at the moment that that's how a lot of us are feeling. We're feeling optimistic. I'll temper that by saying we're also very realistic. We all know that what we've seen over the last three weeks isn't perfect.

It's not the finished article. We also know what is on the horizon and what an enormous challenge that is. And this is going to be one of the biggest the All Blacks have ever faced. It's almost the impossible ask at the moment, given the strength of your side, given the strength and depth, given the way that you're swatting teams. I've been saying swatting teams aside.

Look, these were Six Nations results for the Springboks, an average score of 43-16, a triple crown. And these teams, it's almost like training runs. It's almost like you're playing a provincial side, not even a test match. So we all know that that's on the horizon. However, where we're sitting today, as opposed to where we were sitting before we played France, then after we played France, then after we played Italy, there has been a progression.

You can see that. And I just think that that is what is encouraging for us. So it's tempered, but yeah, there is optimism. Yeah. How's it mad, Marty?

I've been enjoying to watch your mood swings during this Nations Championship. To be fair, I almost don't think that this Nations Championship is a thing, really. so much as whetting our appetite, getting ready for the world's greatest, rugby's greatest rivalry of the universe's greatest rivalries, whatever we're calling this, the GRR, the RGR. It, to me, reminds me of very old times. And I know you know what I'm talking about, guys.

You know, waking up early or late or getting on something to watch because the curiosity of how the teams match up is getting really strong. Rennie's taking the team in this, you know, balls to the wall, rock after rock run, just incredible what I call CPR stats where you have the carry and you have the rock and you have the pass. It's just one after the other. It's multiples more than every other team. And then you have a Rossi ball flavored with Tony ball and it's very difficult to encapsulate it, but it seems a bit like this.

Another reference for the old guys, Frazier Ali. So I love that rivalry between Muhammad Ali because Muhammad Ali didn't have to play with the ball. He could just rope a dope. He didn't have to be always doing combinations. He would jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, boom.

Whereas Frazier was your quintessential, you know, working blue collar man. Get my nose stuck in. And I almost feel that's Dave Rennie. I think I can see Dave Rennie and Joe smoking Joe Frazier. Just tough guy.

Couldn't put him down. Beat Ali for the first time in Ali's life. You know, both of them were Olympic boxers. And Ali looks to me like Rossi at the moment. I'm not saying he'll be forever, but Ali had ups and downs too.

But Ali has this unpredictability thing, Rossi unpredictability thing. Yeah, and I just, I'm sorry. All these other matches, and I prefer these over the normal, you know, summer or winter, whatever, international July things. But I still think it pales in insignificance to what's about to come around the corner. It's like the thriller in Manila, except it's in Cape Town.

So much to unpack there. I love it. I love the heavyweight boxing references. I'm old enough, as we all are, to well remember that trilogy. Just a little aside, I did get to meet Joe Frazier.

He came here to New Zealand. Oh, man, it would be probably 10, 15 years ago now. And at the time, I rang my father, who was just absolutely in love with Frazier and Ali and all of this. And Dad's dead now. But I rang him and I said, Dad, guess who I'm at lunch with?

He said, who? And I said, Joe Frazier. Oh, Dr. Joe Frazier, stop. No way.

So I handed the phone to Joe, and Joe said, G'day, Rod, it's Joe here. And on the other end of the phone, I heard this yelling, put my son back on, put my son back on. And he got, I gave him the phone, it's Joe Frazier, it's Joe Frazier. And then handed the phone back, and they talked for about 10 minutes. I love the reference too, Harry, because as you both well know, the first one at Madison Square Garden was won by Frazier, and Ali came back to win 2-1.

And if the All Blacks do this on this tour, I'd be absolutely delighted with that. Yeah. It's also the reference to 15 rounds. Now, we don't have 15 rounds anymore. And everyone I know that I've ever talked to about boxing says 12 rounds is one thing.

When you get into the 13th, 14th, and 15th round, that's completely different again. And so I think these are great references because this tour is different. This tour is unlike any other tour. We've had the Lions go there and play three tests. This is four tests.

The Lions also have an amazing rivalry with the Springboks. but I think our rivalry supersedes that rivalry just, and you can argue about that, Lions fans, sure. It is a complete contrast in styles. I'm not so sure at the moment, I think, you know, we can jump fully into the bath and say, with the water all around, that this is the bath. I think that there is more to add, whether it's bath salt, whether it's switching on the spa pool and the bubbles.

I don't think just the water and us in it is exactly what Dave Rennie has at the moment. I don't think, he says it's not the finished product, And I agree with that too, Harry. I don't think it is. You know, we had Lema Sopawanga with us on the podcast today. And he brought up some really existential things.

And I know you'll love that word. But he brought up some things which aren't exactly rugby things. He talked about connection. And he talked about the fact that you have to build a team. You have to get buy-in.

Now, Dave Rennie's only had a certain amount of time before the French test, six days. And when you think about it with the demands of the public, the demands to win, the demands the All Blacks play well, the demands we score tries, all of these kind of things. You've got six days to get that team ready. But it's not just ready to play. What he said is that you've also got to get a team that was disjointed last year, fragmented, was dysfunctional.

You've got to get that buy-in. Same group of players, essentially, but they've got to change that headspace and want to believe in the coach. And the connection I made is that this is what you've got. You've already got that. Because I think on a rugby playing level, both of these teams and these players, world-class players in both teams, both of them know how to play test matches.

There's experience all over the park. They know the X's and O's kind of bit. But maybe it's the other bits. Maybe it's what we saw when you won the World Cup. And I keep going back to this, the pictures of the unity, the fact that people are so delighted that it uplifts a nation.

When you add all of that on board, maybe these are the kind of finer margins and the one percenters. That's what we need to build first. So we're a bit behind the eight ball when it comes to that. But I think going on tour for this group of players and going on tour for the length of time that they're going as well, you've got to remember there's another prize next year. And Dave Rennie did reference this after the Ireland test.

And he said, look, he said, whatever happens on this tour, it's going to be invaluable for us going into the World Cup. We're going to find out everything we need to know about ourselves, our players and everything else. So there's a lot in there. When it comes to the test matches, Harry, all we're going to care about is the scoreboard and who has more points at the end of the day. None of us are going to care about whether, oh, you guys had 80% of the ball and you scored four tries, well, we scored nine penalties and we beat you.

We don't care about anything except the results, right? But there is a lot more to it in the background as well, you know. And we've got to kind of be conscious of all of this, I think, as we approach the tour. Dave Rennie's lost his job at the Wallabies in the most unfair and kind of stupid way, actually. When you look back at it now, the benefit of retrospect.

And so he'll be well aware that it's a brutal business. and he cannot afford to get off to a bad start he's got off to this great start but i think dave reny in the back of his head would know that if he goes and just shits the bed in south africa twice in a row everything changes immediately and it's going to be the naysayers and the boo birds and why don't we do this depending on how that you know how we lost for example on the other hand um this is something that you know russi's been kind of as mv is well aware throwing players in 46 players in the first three rounds, unlike anyone else. If we drop that first match, for example, then the whole of South Africa is saying, what did you do, Rossi? Did you show Dave Rennie disrespect? Did you not get ready with coherent combinations?

How do you figure that? How much is Dave Rennie just thinking one game at a time? Or does he have things he's going to pull out of the hat still that he hasn't brought out yet? I think when it comes to both countries, and I think most fans will probably think the same, and I hope they do that. I think when it comes to both countries, we have a fair idea of how each other's going to play.

And, you know, the video analysis these days, there are guys that are employed specifically to look at players. There are cameras that are on specific players. And so you can analyse everything about them, how they do, whether they go left or right, where's their body, all of these kind of things you can do. So I think that's equal from both sides. But the 43 is, you know, a great number because I've been saying about this a week, 43-30.

It's not a score in the nation's championship, but it could be because these scores have been kind of pretty similar to that. What it is, it's the amount of players that you've used as opposed to the amount of players that we've used. Now, 43 players is effectively, you do the math, 3 by 15. It's almost like a different 15 in each game. We didn't have that luxury.

And so what Dave Rennie's had to do over these three tests, 34 players, four didn't even get used. He's trying to find out right now what combinations he's got, what players he can really trust, what he can get out of those players working with these other players. And I think so as much as us fans at the end of the Nations Championship, we would never have tolerated a loss. If he had lost one of those three games, the Wolves would have been howling already. So he had to win that and balance this out.

So as I say, we're coming from different corners into this ring where we're going to meet for this heavyweight championship prize, which is so fascinating about it, isn't it? Because, again, it just adds so much more narrative and it gives people like us so much more to talk about. But you're right. You know, if it comes down to that first test, and say the All Blacks take that at Ellis Park, you know, the spiritual home of South African rugby, what does that then do? Does he do what he did last year after the defeat at Eden Park?

Does he change the team around for Wellington? Which worked a treat, as we all know, biggest defeat ever for the All Blacks. And you keep reminding us most days. And then risk that. And what say that didn't work out?

You know, these are all questions that maybe will never be answered because they don't need to be answered because the South Africans might stomp us. Who knows? But if Dave Rennie goes there and we get wiped, the floor gets wiped, well, then his contract only goes to the end of the Rugby World Cup. And so then, you know, maybe though the powers that be that appointed him start looking and going, okay, well, yeah, he brings culture, he brings respect, he brings connection, he brings all of that. But hard smarts about rugby, we're not winning these test matches.

And again, that's the currency, Harry. And MW, that's the currency. The only currency on this tour is the win the W that all it is okay The rest of it is all just that isn it that all it is you talked about the o the big optimism over there and you talked about a w now i wanted to ask you we all know russi's you know it's a sly sly fox calling that and we were wondering whether how much of what he's been doing you know picking a different side basically for every game see i see somebody in the telegraph said in the comments that team against england should be the number one team in the world the one against scotland should be this number two team in the the world you know stuff like that how much of this what russ has been up to do you think is smoke and mirrors i'm worried are you guys you said you have a pretty good idea of each team is going to play but is that really true are you expecting anything from russie some some slight something new maybe you know a new bomb squad iteration or whatever i think the advantage that he has at the moment is everyone is obsessed with him and everything about him and everything he does and i don't know whether you have kind of magazine style shows in south africa but i bet every single show is trying to sit down and find out about the man. What's his life like? And what does he do?

When does he go to eat? And, you know, what's his love life like? And does he have a great family life and all of these things? And I'm sure he just gets get out of my face. I'm not interested in all of that stuff.

But this is the thing. We are obsessed with this guy and we're obsessed with everything he does in terms of the rugby team as well. But there's a danger in that as well. And that what we've got to do is get our stuff right. We're going to get out, you know, for want of a better phrase, act together, shit together, whatever you want to, you know, we've got to make sure that the All Blacks are absolutely trusting in the way that we play and that we are confident in the way that we play can win these test matches.

Because again, reference the heavyweight boxing, you can study the opponent, study the opponent, study the opponent. But if you don't go there and perform the way that you want to and prepare for that and play the way that you're prepared for, well, I don't know then how much study is relevant. Look, we watched the Island game on the weekend, MW, and one thing that was glaring to all of us All Blacks fans was Ireland scored three tries and they were very similar tries. They pounded the line. They pounded the line.

They got two. Then they flipped a big pass. The wing had got it. But it was three really similar kind of tries. Came into the 22 and just kept smashing against us.

And all we were looking at, all of us at Eden Park were going, swap that color emerald green for the springbok green. And that's what we're going to see. And we know this is coming. you've got a brilliant back line and you can play that way as well box kicks, the pressure of altitude you're going to try and scrum us into the ground, we know that you will apply pressure to the referee like the Argentinians did at the Football World Cup Harry, we know all of this is coming but how much of any of that is important or more important than the way that the All Blacks prepare and want to play and are able to execute what we want to do because a couple of years ago, yeah sorry No, that's true. And it almost makes me think about Mana and Chias.

And I start to think that it's those things that made, you know, Frasier and Ali blood brothers in a sort of hated, really malicious rivalry that they shared. And one thing I thought about Frasier that I always loved is what, he didn't seem to have any pain. He just seemed to be impervious. When I watched these all blacks play, you know, really encouraged by Dave Rennie, a Pacifica man, maybe he can speak to some of them, you know, in deeper ways. I don't know.

But it's not just skill All Blacks. Skill Blacks now. It's a violent team. Make no mistake about it. Ali said that when Frazier hit him the first time, it took away his breath and he never got it back.

I mean, the entire fight, the one he lost, the first one. I find that to be true of these All Blacks. And I'm not quibbling on, you know, Luke Jacobson's concrete shoulder clean out. but the the intent that lukey had on that thing i mean he he came to clean and i think that's the difference it's the same players like you point out with a few you know people here and there um but they are they are playing hard and then from the ali reference you know the rise ali got in people's heads you know like rossi does and it was the razzle dazzle and it was all smoke and mirrors with him too because he was a tough guy in the end muhammad ali was a tough boy he knew how to take a punch as well. So for me, it's more that Ireland lacks the athleticism and what I call brutal athleticism.

The French are still a little bit too figuring out what they want to do. These two teams know what they want to do. It's a bit different, but they're both like grown-ass men, really ready to fight. So I think it's going to be great. I wonder whether or not, and you know, you just imagine being in that huddle and that dressing room amongst these players as they're about to take the field.

I wonder whether or not whoever manages that the best, just the adrenaline and what they call barring up and just wanting to smash the crap out of the guy in front of you. I wonder how much of that can be kind of diffused in the mind and just, you know, controlled, you know, to make sure that whatever you're doing, that doesn't become or overcome everything else. You know, the coach has got a hell of a job because, you know, you're talking about, you've got a dog on a chain and they've got a dog on a chain and these dogs are going and they want to go at each other but you know really the cleverer dog is the one that maybe the little bull master for whatever comes up from underneath and gets the bite hold on right so you know we're making all kinds of references but look this is what the excitement of it is isn't it and we're going to build up to this and we're going to build up to this and we're going to build up to it through urc matches as well which is going to be fascinating because we're going to pick the bones like a like a rotisserie chicken until nothing's left on every single aspect of every one of these matches before we get to the first test. And ultimately, none of us know. Because when the first ball goes up in the air, does somebody knock it on?

Does somebody catch it? But we just know it's going to be ferocious and it's going to be so ultra competitive. And the prize at the end of it, I think, is almost more psychological than anything else. And this is where I think the All Blacks, as underdogs, and man, we love being underdogs, Harry. we love being backs to the wall where everyone hates us and we got no chance oh no kick our ass we go to Ireland and play in the quarterfinal Ireland have already beaten the Springboks in this tournament they've won 18 in a row the All Blacks under falls we got no chance guess what happened we turned up and we played our best game in about three or four years don't discount that factor as well no that's a good point although both these teams love to play the underdog it's very difficult for us to do that and we have to be and I think Rossi from probably years ago said we've got to stop doing that if we have to rely on that we're not going to get anywhere you cannot go back to back to back by playing underdogs you are going to be the favorites on that final back um but i'll say this this decade so far has been a rare one in recent times and that it's been box decade there's been a lot of decades in a row that were the all blacks decades so i think russi dearly wants to keep that where he can say that was my decade and i put my stamp on it and it was green um you know these things ebb and flow we know that there'll be another decade it'll be done something different but for now it's especially spicy um some of the new guys talk to us about that we see ruben love coming in at 10 he's not a he's not someone that a lot of south africans would have watched very much my understanding is then you have cam roy guard ruben love and jordy barrett which is sort of a hurricane thing um so maybe even though he's young he's he's with his guys uh who else is you know we see tuple vai you know talking a lot so we see um you know, who are the other young players coming through the system for the All Blacks?

Okay, we call it the axis, which is the 9-10-12 axis, which is Roy Gard, Love and Jordy Barrett. And I don't think that you can underestimate having this guy inside and that guy outside when you played for the Hurricanes for them. Ruben Love's a really interesting one for us because you guys have what we're seeing, three or four first fives. We've got Damian McKenzie sitting there at a pinch Bowden Barrett, but not a lot of us believe that Bowden will be playing these test matches. will probably take over another young first five as well because the 44 get named on Monday and a lot of us thinking that there'll be another one.

I think that Ruben Love has almost been protected by having Damien McKenzie there so that there is another guy on the field that can interchange. Ruben can also go back to fullback. Part of the selection process when we first looked at the All Blacks for these three test matches and I was adamant about this and I think I spoke to you guys about this as well was that give the guy the job for the first test but don't just give it to him for the first test. Give it to him for the test after that against Italy. Give it to him for the island test.

I wanted to see him play all three tests. I didn't care that much about whether he dropped the ball, knocked it on. He got a yellow card in the first minute against France, whether he was a five out of 10 or six out of 10. The assessment had to come after three tests. We couldn't play him in one, then drop him.

Like you do in a cricket team, your number three batsman comes in. Oh, he had a failure. You kick him out and give it to another guy. No, you had to give him those keys. And so I think we have that guy now.

However, he's one injury away from not playing, as we saw with Sasha. And hopefully, I've heard today that he might be back for the test matches. We don't know. The one question, look, we've got other players. There's a few young Hurricanes around.

And they're not kind of new. They've been around the fringes. They've played a couple of games, but they're trying to establish themselves now. And guys like Asafo Omoa, who came on a real impact off the bench against Ireland, just nuggety, gritty, hard. So Cody Taylor doing that initial work.

And then you've got Asafo Somersoni. These guys aren't new, Harry, but this is their time to come of age. New locking combinations in Josh Lord, Sam Darry. Again, they're not new, but they're a new combination. Fabian Holland plays on Friday, our time, in a Ranfley Shield game.

So he'll be back in that mix as well. Jacobson, again, not a young player, not a new player, but new to this environment and new to getting regular starts in test matches. Wallace Satiti last year, or was it the year before, I think he was the young player of the year, breakout performances in South Africa at number six. Again, not young, not new. On the wings, Fehi, and you are going to get to see this boy who scored so many tries in super rugby.

Josh Morby made his debut in the last couple of games, Italy, Ireland, and just, he looks as though he's been there for a really long time. Heads up. He looks very good, Marty. Morby looked very good to me. Look, and what did you like about him?

You like the fact that he's constantly looking for his teammate. He's looking for grass and he's looking for his teammate. He doesn't care whether he gets the try. He would rather, it's kind of like a footballer who rounds the keeper then just passes it back to his centre-forward who can tap it in. Doesn't matter who scores the goal, does it?

We've all scored the goal. As long as it goes in the basket at the end of the court, that's all we care about. In the front row, again, we've got guys, Numea coming in because we've lost a couple. Tamaiti won't tour. So Scott Barrett won't turn.

So it's not like these guys are brand new in green, but a lot of them haven't had as many games as, you know, maybe you might want them to before they hit. But I've got a question for you guys, and it was raised on the roundtable yesterday. When you look at that 43, you can only play 15 on the field and your reserves, of course. Is the theory that, oh, okay, these are such interchangeable parts in the engine, so if the fan belt goes, you know, we don't have to take the engine, Shall we just replace the fan belt with that? If the carburetor goes, we just put a new carburetor on.

Is that what he's trying to do? Or is there a possibility that you don't have a combination under heat that has played together enough before that first test? It's just a question. I'm not saying it's true, but it's just a question. M.

V.A., you want to take that first? Yeah, I've had to be in my body for a while now. We haven't played our best team together yet, and that's a big problem.

And also, many of those springboks that we want to play in that first test haven't played at all. Like, Sia has been injured for a while. Iben hasn't played almost any rugby this year. I'm very worried about that, to be perfectly honest. And I think, you know, you want to replace a fan belt with, you know, pantyhose, that'll work, but it's not the same thing.

And I think that's maybe what you're referring to. I don't buy this whole, you know, interchangeable party with building depth and everything. This is the All Blacks. You can't run out against the All Blacks with an untested, or let me not say untested, a little rusty team that's not that cohesive, maybe. That's what I've been saying and I've been hammering on about it and I'm sure we're going to get some feedback or pushback from that.

But yeah, Jerry. It's all very secretive. So Springboks are not telling even the provincial coaches, the club coaches, about the system. But of course their players are getting it so it's trickling back. But the system is something that's been sort of just refined over these years now by Felix and Rassi and now Jerry and Stick and Don Uman and these guys.

And the theory is, yes, that over a four game series, there's going to be five to six injuries. You can mark it down. The problem is you don't know who it's going to be. So if you're all about this, you know, got to be the best players only that know the best players and then, you know, they play and then they and then it comes on the bench. No it going to be there got to be depth of three everywhere And they got to be just there or thereabouts Trust trust the system they always say that now post match now peter step to trust the system and uh and learn it and that thing is more like an nfl playbook with my information it's 85 pages ish it's got tabs it's got colors it's very complicated and they're only letting people in the buckland in these in the alignment camps who can sit down at a desk all day with a book it's not about lifting weights anymore it's absolutely the mind game secondly on things like the scrum the box this is not arrogance the box think that scrumming with each other is the hardest scrum they'll have so they're not too worried about them not playing uh yet uh they just want to sort of store them up and just have them like balls in heat ready to come running out um but you and i both know 9 10 15 that is time to settle you need a lot of time together to start reading each other body language under heat under pressure things aren't going right you get charged down now go back to get it where am i going that is uh that's my that's my worry we have this revolving door now you know voosie sasha mani Andre, you know, that's just a lot of, you know, if I'm, if I'm a wing, it's interesting to me, if I know where you're going, you know, Mane is a very unpredictable fly off anyway.

So now you throw in the fact that it's Mane or Andre, I mean, where exactly am I supposed to be? So yeah, I am worried about that, Marty. Yeah. If, if one of these guys has a bad game and that happens, you can, you know, best laid plans, of course, we all know. And what say the number 10 has a bad game that game.

Then the quandary is, what do I do? Do I change him for the next game? Because I've been changing him every time. What does that do to his confidence? So, you know, look, this is the contrast of styles and the contrast of ideas.

And this is what we want, isn't it? Because the last thing you want in any international sporting clash, and it's been so evident during the Football World Cup, you know, when you look at all the countries and the way that they play is different. Spain play completely different from every other country on the planet. They love the ball. They want the ball.

They're quite happy to keep the ball for 80% of the time. England, on the other hand, swashbuckling. You know, they play with emotion. They don't want the ball. They kick the ball up the other end and they run after it, but they'll, you know, Argentina, gritty, nasty, elbowing dogs, you know, they'll just, they'll fight the whole time, and that's how they consider it.

You know, other teams played their own. Norway had this behemoth up front, and their whole game seemed to be based around him, and so when you talk it back to international rugby. This is the fascination, and this is why we are so engaged in debating about it and arguing about it and remonstrating with each other, but I hope that at the end of the day, we don't lose sight of the fact that, like Fraser Ali, what we are witnessing and the privilege that we have is we are getting to watch this, and we're getting to watch this build up, and we're getting to just constantly talk about it and go to sleep at night with notepads beside our bed, and I know you do this, Harry, and you wake up in the middle of the night and you're scribbling things down and our partners are waking up going, what are you doing? And I said, I'm just checking Harry message. And I just got up, you know, and because- Stop rucking me.

That's it. This is the joy of what we do, isn't it? Yes. We don't know. We can talk a million words in a million minutes and a million podcasts about this.

And this is why it means so much and why we're all so very much looking forward to it. Because none of us know until that first whistle goes and the final whistle goes. And what a place to do it as well. Alice Park in Johannesburg is the first test. And you think about last year against Australia and what happened in that test.

It was an ambush. And after 22 up, after, what, 17 minutes, the counter-rucking is what got South Africa. And South Africa looked a little rusty. They looked a little rusty in that game. Maybe that is something that the All Blacks are looking at thinking the same.

But again, you know, we go back to where we are and we've got to make this point. As Dave Renier is quick to point out, we're not the finished article. Of course we aren't. And what we've had to do is reconstruct and rebuild from last year. And I think you can't underestimate this whole connection thing or getting a coach to get buy-in from the players.

Because, you know, guys, it's like in any workplace. If you don't really like the boss or you're not getting on with the boss or you don't understand what your supervisor is saying, then you start making a few snarky jokes. and when you've had a couple of beers on Friday night, you're going, well, I'm really off. And it does affect your performance. You're not coming in every day bright and breezy, going to work, wanting to work.

It just, I call it the 100%. So that snips off 2%. And then you might kind of think, oh, the guy's a dickhead. He's making me do something I don't like. There's another 2% goes.

By the time you actually finish at 10 o'clock in the morning, you're down to about 82%. You see what I mean? And whether we translate this again to the rugby foot, I don't see how we can't, because I just see it is the same department store, different floor. I want to ask you this. You talked about the different styles, you know, the Soccer World Cup, England plays like this.

But what we've seen, and Harry mentioned it earlier quickly, he invented this stat called CPR. It rolls nicely off the tongue as well. Carries, passes, and rucks. And that's the All Blacks. That's a new game.

Against Italy, we saw more than 300 passes. I remember, and Harry worked it out. Carries, passes, and rucks, I think, what is it, Harry? 580-something. 581 per game over the three rounds.

South Africa around 240, 250. So, huge difference. Are you guys sold on that thing? Do you think you guys have the cattle to keep playing that kind of game? You know, it takes a lot out of your place.

It's very physical. It's demanding. Your fitness has to be peak and your depth is going to be tested. You know, you're running to Peter's death a couple of times. You have an injury or two.

Are you guys going to be able to keep it up? So, what we're looking forward to is when you guys get injured and the prop sits down after the first two minutes and wastes another 30 seconds and everyone gets their breath because that always happens, doesn't it, when we play, seems to play over there. We've got to tie our shoes, Marty. We've got to tie our shoes. It's a lot.

At altitude. Yeah. Look, the other thing is there's a lot of all blacks that are going to tour South Africa that have never been there and have never played up in those stadiums and never played at altitude. And Murray Mechstead on the show is always big on this. He says, you don't understand until you've been there.

You really don't. So there is that factor as well. You know, one of the stats I wanted to bring in, you know, carries, passes, and rocks, I think is incredibly important because it's the way that we are defining the way that we play, which is, you know, people call it run and gun, whatever it is. It's just using the ball. It's the way that the French are playing, those short offload passes that we saw when they lost to you guys last year that we saw in the Six Nations as well.

The missed tackles, which is the most misleading stat in world rugby, isn't it? What, 46 missed tackles, apparently, the Springboks against Scotland. And I've got to tell you about this. We do a mailbag section every week. And one of the Springbok fans wrote in and said, you guys don't understand.

This is actually a tactic. What the point is, is that the first guy misses the tackle, so the second guy gets it. And I'm just sitting in my head and my hands going, I've never ever watched a game of rugby where the coach is afterwards. Yeah, we love those first up missed tackles because the second guy gets it. So, look, we can analyze and overanalyze and theorize all about this.

But I think the most important thing is the style and the intent, isn't it? One thing that we've all noticed as well is a reduction in the amount of kicks. I don't think that's going to be the case when we get over there and tour. And we were amazed that Ireland didn't do this the last couple of times that we played them. The first five times is just bang up in the air and see what happens with it.

So there's all of those elements, moving parts to add in as well. But getting to your CPI, I think it's great stats because what it does is it defines a style and it defines how a team wants to play and whether they are going to be good at it. The stat you need to add to that, if I may, is how many times that goes wrong, like how many times you've missed a pass, how many times it's dropped, how many times that passage of play grinds to a halt for whatever reason as well because that kind of probably puts another perspective on the CPR. It's very interesting when you break it down to how much time each team has with the ball in an attacking posture. So you have the ball, but you're in your own 22, you're just exiting.

That's not counting. And it comes out to about 10 to 12 minutes for each side out of the ball and plate. You basically have 10 to 12 minutes of attack ball with, you know, you got good clean product from a ruck or a scrum or a line out and here you go. And the all black style is arduous because they're taking more possessions to get there. You know, 24-ish possessions per try, Slavica around 14.

So we are scoring in bursts and then we retreat into a shell specifically to soak and to recharge because we're playing a big kinetic type of rugby that shoots. Whereas the All Blacks now own the franchise. They're the best by far, better than Ireland, better than the French at taking the ball and starving you of it and going through these Dave Rennie phases. geez all I think about that when I think about that is how Dave Rennie is getting the guys ready to do that because like you say I'm a wide-eyed boy I walk in let's say I'm the German and Todd and I'm just rocking up at one of these stadiums what am I thinking I mean it's got to be just one of the most jarring experiences ever I mean when you go into Elspard you feel like you're going to get eaten I'll just say it that way you know it's it's no picnic. One of the stats Dave Rennie's talked about a lot you guys i'm sure are aware of this is the kind of the up and downs it's the time that it takes when you're on the ground to get up and get back in the line to make and i think i think he's emphasized that probably more importantly more important than anything else and apparently if you come under a certain line and it's up on a whiteboard and all of these things he's he puts your name and all of the numbers up on a whiteboard in the room for everyone to see so that and it's It's in different colours.

So if you hit the red, well, your punishment is you go back out onto that training pitch and you do more of these because that's what he needs from you. And so in all the other players, you have to be personally accountable to yourself, to him, to everyone else. And that down and up, I think, is crucial as well because it is the recovery. So when you're getting batted at the line, you make the thing, get back out into position. Or you're going forward and you hit that ruck.

Where do you go next? And these are split-second things. But there's one thing he even referenced and mentioned, Artie Savio, when he first came into the team, he said it wasn't good enough when he first got hold of him, he said, and he needed him to do more. So even a guy that is at that level. So that's a real fundamental change in the thinking, I think, in what he's doing.

The other thing, Harry, and M-Dub is that, look, I don't think that we can afford from our 22 to be playing this kind of rugby and to, you know, unless we're keeping the ball and soaking the clock up like you do in the NFL, but to exhaust ourselves by pounding and pounding and pounding to get 10 metres, when in actual fact, I think you're going to see a lot more kicking and making sure that I think territory is going to be absolutely paramount in this series. And it's a much underutilised word and tactic and stat in rugby these days. Get down their end. How many times are the All Blacks going to concede a try from the end of the earth? How many times are you guys going to concede that?

Against Aussie last year, there's a couple of them, but very rare, isn't it? It's hard to score in rugby from your own 22. You can launch a counterattack. But I think that is so absolutely vital for us. It saves the lungs.

It saves the body from the hits. Play at their end. It's a really simple thing. It's how rugby's always been, isn't it? But we don't talk about it a lot these days.

We saw something interesting this weekend against Wales. And it goes to your, you asked about, you know, how many of that comes to stop the ball is knocked on or whatever. We saw South Africa not mining to knock on the ball themselves and inviting a knock-on from everybody else because then we can have a scrum. And I'm worried about that. So I heard the commentator said this weekend, I'm not sure who commentated with, I think it was Tony, the other guy.

He said, you know, there are countries in the world who still like the scrum penalty. And I just thought, geez, man, that's a bit of a dig there. And yeah, what's the feeling about the scrums? Well, I think that it's a weapon, isn't it? And in Test Rugby, it is the ultimate, this is the first three or four rounds of your 15-rounder, Harry, isn't it?

Is the scrums. That's what it actually is. The clinch. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, you're not going to get so close that he's going to haymaker you, but you're getting close enough to eye him, and he's getting close enough to know as well. And that wrestle that goes on, and this is a macho sport. This is a tough man game, and I think that these players, you know, they want this. I think the All Blacks want it as much as the Springboks do. For those big men in those front row, they don't care about team talks and national anthems and planes going over and whatever it is.

just give me that guy in front of me and let's see. Shoulder to shoulder how it goes. I think it's vital. I think it's really important. I think it's an area and it's intimidating when you say that you guys are scrumming against each other and that's as good as it gets and you don think anyone else is going to compete You know to be honest that Welsh game seven tries to nil 43 points As I said you just swatting these teams aside So against us you always had a massive pack We've always kind of looked at perhaps body position, maybe getting lower, getting under.

But I think that that contestability there from all of the first phase, from that, from lineouts, from box kicking, whatever it is, from kickoffs. Max calls it possession. And so the ultimate possession is, and you need a percentage. And he says you have to have 50 to 55 in South Africa. You can't win it all.

Okay, you can't win with 40% of the ball because you can't score if you don't have the ball. And so I think that possession that you get, front foot possession from that scrum is just absolutely vital. And the first few minutes, we're going to know straight away. I expect it to be reset a few times, but I expect that that is something that the Springboks are going to look at and go, this is ours. This is our home.

this is what we like to do. We like to serve the steak first. Veggies come later. Eat this first. Have a look at this.

And that's what the scrum is. It's the only fan base that I know of where we get, I mean, there's some French clubs, I think others do this too, but the whole stadium stands up in a standing ovation when the penalty goes, when the whistle goes for the scrum. At Twickenham a year ago against Argentina, and then I remember doing the same thing in Durban against Ireland, and we were rejoicing, you know, like, let's see what you can, can you handle this? and that's like the left jab. That's the left hook of Joe Frazier.

That left hook could knock people out, just the rib and then knocked out. All the guys talk about how saps you to be in a scrum that you're getting pushed back. It's not even whether the referee whistles it. It's the fact that you got pushed back and that hurts. Demoralizing.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's demoralizing. All of them with the biggest guy in their family, all of them the biggest guy on their street, they didn't get pushed around. Now they're getting pushed back.

that's a tester and MW you're right and look I don't buy into this anyone that says and it might have been Justin said it it might have been a throwaway comment I don't buy into anyone going oh they're playing for a scrum penalty hey what are we doing at ruck time we're trying to get a penalty that's what we're trying to do that's the whole point if our scrum every time we pack down the referee's given us one of those hello we take it every day of the week and what we're going to do we're going to call for it again and we're going to get one of your players yellow carded eventually. And we're going to march you down. And we might kick three points from it, but we're going to own you at that point. I think you're exactly right, Harry. It's psychological, isn't it?

If you're the biggest, toughest guys in the team, one through eight, and these guys are making mincemeat of you. So, yeah, it's huge. It's massive, you know. And, again, what I love is that we can sit here as sports fans and get so goddamn excited about eight men packing down against eight men. and that drone shot which is to me the greatest shot in rugby is the one that looks down on top of that massive humanness that spider web of bodies that are crushing and pushing and trying to dominate and exert on each other i don't know i can't describe it it is sexual is all i'll say it harry you are trying to make someone squeal marty so that's fair um so listen to me the stupidest thing of all is that they they the powers that be will allow you and marty into the into these locker rooms and into the press rooms and we get to mix and mingle as we did at edam park and both of us were looking at each other like who let us do this in here like what kind of great idea was that i i'll just confess right now i'm chuffed to speak to cam roy guard if i can get a if i can sit down and i can talk to him for five minutes tick my box let's tick my box like i am really ready to talk to him.

Who's a bock or two that you're looking forward to running into in the bowels of the stadium and having a chat with? Peter Stefft-de-Toy. I just love this guy. I admire him so much. He broke my heart in Paris.

What was it? 23 tackles? I don't think he missed one. Just an absolute beast of a guy. One of my favourite ever All Blacks is Jerome Kano.

I think for two World Cups in 2011 and 2015, he was the most outstanding player there. And he dominated his position so much. He dominated his position so much that the opposition would look down the blinds like, oh, that's right, it's Jerome. We're not going down there. He shut a whole section of the field down.

And I think this guy has to go down as one of the greatest rugby players ever. And I know we measure it in terms of first fives and the glory boys who score all the tries and things. That's one of them. Obviously, Sia, you know, I mean, you know, he to me is just one of those athletes in the world that if you ever get a chance to sit down with him and talk with him. I love your little nuggety scrum half, the bald one.

What's that guy? Is it Cobus? No. Oh, Cobus Ranaugh. Yeah, you just got a buzz cut.

That guy, you know, who to me is everything I don't despise, but everything, the antithesis of that opponent. I really like him. I love your wingers, you know, and I'd love to sit down with him. But Malcolm Marks as well, if I could get close to that guy just because I just physically want to see the specimen. Look, look at the size of the screen behind me here, boys.

Malcolm goes from there over to here. You know, he's that big. He's that guy. You know, I'd love to sit, I'd love to sit down with Faf. I know he doesn't play anymore, but I'd like to sit down with him.

You know, we've, we've spoken to a lot of Springboks from the past. And, you know, every time, Nas Butta comes on the program, and I remember him from 81 um and you know i love talking to him so yeah there's so many of them uh and you know the privilege of being over there and being able to do this the other thing was just while that comes to top of mind yeah i was writing an editorial i'm going to put this out in the next couple of weeks just about personal circumstance that in 1981 19 what 26 what's that 45 years ago there i was as a young man on the streets right um protesting against this tour sneaking off to watch the games and the mates flat afterwards because I was such a rugby head as well but just to think about that young man then and now you know the privilege of going to South Africa to watch these test matches isn't life I don't know whether weird's the right word but isn't it just amazing how things change over time and you know I'm still that young man from 1981 yet here I am now so much looking forward to coming to your country embracing the country uh going to prize getting people yelling at me, getting people arguing with me, getting people debating with me, getting people telling me that, you know, that we've got no chance over there and just diving in the deep end of all of that. It's just, man, it's just, it is a real dream come true. I've got to tell you that, boys. You're going to love it, Marty.

There's no place that reads and lives it as much except for probably some places in New Zealand. So you'll feel right at home in that sense. Also, you'll feel right at home because in New Zealand, when I was there, everyone was an expert. The whole country was an expert. Some granny would be, you know, screaming about the finer pieces of the bind at the scrum.

Same thing you'll find all around Cape Town, around Joburg. You'll find people telling you what's what. So if you are able to get the first question in to Rossi after a glorious all-black win, what are you asking the man, the great man, Rossi? Well, I'd be very respectful, to be perfectly honest. and depending on how the game unfolds I'd be very respectful indeed but is this what you planned for?

1-0 down Nice, I think you might enjoy that one Can I ask you just before we go boys just in terms of the URC sides what do you know? What are we expecting? Are the Springbok players for the Test match is available and going to play against the All Blacks? How much of a cat and mouse is going to be? don't know no one knows the coaches don't the coaches don't know do this up to now they don't know we don't know it's probably going to be a bit of a a bit of a anti-climax those i think um to keep in con you know keep in tune with your sexual theme uh it's just all about the three climaxes of the tests i think those are just fillers and they obviously will sell tickets there's gonna be merch around it but um no i'm not expecting too much from you know can i give give you some background quickly, Marty, just some context here quickly.

The URC teams have a 56-player cap. They only have 56 players they can contract. That minus the spring box, who might or might not be available. The Stormers and the Bulls are both playing in the Curry Cup. The Stormers play the Cheetahs a day after, or two days after the All Blacks match, and the Bulls play the Cheetahs the very next day.

So the Bulls have, what, 12 or 15 spring box here, down to 40, minus the injuries, and you have to play both those squads, and they still to this day don't know who they're going to be able to pick. I mean, they might have better, you know, whisper in the ear or something, but I'm not expecting much of those games to be perfectly honest. You said UFC games, teams against the All Blacks. I don't expect you to see that. I think it's going to be a bit of a water down thing, unfortunately.

That's what I'm thinking. That's different from the way that the tours were in the past, wasn't it? Because it was a softening up process. That's what it was always called, you know, to smash the All Blacks in midweek before the big Saturday games. Yeah, and you guys going out there making the it was the whole career it was that moment i think it's all been kind of a little bit diluted but i still think maybe out of one of those one of those matches will end up being something they probably like sometimes when the maori all blacks play and they scare somebody you know like a really close somebody stepping up and make you know grabbing the opportunity kind of thing it's never going to be just a game i'm just saying you're not going to see the bulls that played against lansdowne in the final or storm has played in semi-final it's not going to be that team, never.

That's the thing. It's a bit of a pity, I think. And also, it interrupts the UFC preparation. I'm going to be sacrilegious to say it, but it is a bit of an inconvenience, almost, if I have to be perfectly honest. I want to say thank you also.

Clinton, your friend, has got in touch, and I should be on the ground and be able to go to the Johannesburg Sportsman's Club and speak, and so very much looking forward to that. I gave him your number. I gave him your number. So, yeah, there we go. Yeah, yeah.

I'm looking forward to seeing you there, man. It's going to be great. We're going to have some good times. Yeah, I agree. And as I say, we've got the 44 named on Monday, and then the All Blacks, I think, are here for a few days after that.

Then my co-host, Jamie, is there leaving at the same time, and he'll be on the ground for the whole tour. So we'll be interacting the whole time, and then I'll come over for those test matches and really look forward to that as well. But yeah, it's, look, you know, we had Ryan Fox win the Open this week, the British Open. Yeah, and that's the only third time a New Zealand man has ever won a golf major. That's incredible.

And we were debating yesterday. We have a Helberg Sports Awards at the end of the year, the biggest achievement in New Zealand sport. And there's criteria attached to it and everything else. Winning a golf major, wow. Okay, that's amongst probably the top 10, 15 things ever in New Zealand sport.

What about going to South Africa and winning this particular tour for the All Blacks? You know, how could you possibly choose between the two of those? So there's so much to talk about between now and then. It's never going to stop, is it? You know, we've had, and I'm sure you guys have heard, you know, the podcasts are going crazy because people want this.

People want to talk about this. People are so engaged with it. And I think, I can't imagine what it's like in your country because you're hosting it. But I can imagine what it would be like if you were coming here. The place would stop, man.

there'd be no work done. I mean, there's work from home. I'm working from home for a month is what it would be. This is how big this is. And this is before we got a general election.

Who cares? No one cares. No one cares. What we care about is coming to your place. That's what we care about.

How good. That's brilliant. I love it. I'd say one more thing, Amari. I want to leave you with a thought.

You know, with South Africa's back-to-back world champions, we've beat every single Six Nations team and rugby championship team in the last 12 months.

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