"The Toughest Part of Rugby" | Bulls CEO Edgar Rathbone | The Long Way to the Game

Rugby is unfortunately a bit different where you get audited every weekend and every weekend it's emotion and people tell you what they think about you and that's for players that's for administrators that's for coaches that's the tough part that's that's that what that's what either gets you up or gets you down i mean then you realize what the exchange rate does right so we could have a sold out stormers match but we would make more revenue playing a round of 16 against to lose and you must understand that the integrity that comes with that because he could very easily have stayed with for us for two years and faked injuries just sat in the gym and rehabbed and earned his paycheck and be happy with that but he was happy to say that listen the the right thing to do and the integrity of the person he is i'll walk away from a two-year contract this is the long way to the game only on megaphone rugby welcome back to the long way to the game our fan-centric podcast and today we have the special guest special honor of having edgar afbord ceo of the bulls so first foremost echo welcome back and thank you for making time for us no thanks india it's uh it's always a pleasure to chat to you and and paul it's uh it's obviously the first time chatting to you but i've been i've been listening to your inputs and it's been really insightful so looking forward to it yeah thanks edgar i'm really excited to talk to you and uh especially you know fans have a lot of opinions about rugby teams and rugby organizations but often we're not well informed. And so I'm loving, I'm looking forward to kind of getting your perspective of what really happens behind the scenes and what it takes to run a rugby organization. No, look, it's a, it's a moving organism. So it's every day is different, but it's a, it's a lovely challenge. So looking forward to the chat.

I want to just say, listen, look at Paul's background there. And then we talk about it again, when you stuck in Stella Bosch in the storm, not sure I think, and I'm stuck in Pretoria in a small room and Paul lives on an island. Thank you you very much, Paul. Yeah, look, it's a small flex from Paul, just the background. Yeah, just normally as a, yeah, like a wall behind him today, he's got the ocean.

I mean, thank you, Paul. Listen, let's go into business. Eka, thank you for inviting me to spend a week with the bulls. It was something that I was not really expecting, but like I said, we can't be outdone by the stormers. Paul is a stormer fan, and I've got extra pleasure by, you know, being out and say the bulls went even better.

Not two days, but the whole week. So thank you for that, and let's just ask you this very weird question what was your thinking allowing me to do that look and i mean i think the first the first chat we had uh in actually actually in akis's office just before the invite came was uh was it was a brutally honest chat where where we sat down and said listen let's put all the cards on the table whatever's griping either party uh let's put that all on the table and have an honest chat. And after that, we felt comfortable that, listen, I think we've met equal ground and we've improved right by your week there and how you dealt with yourself and just how you integrate with the team. So it was a fantastic week to have you there. Good answer.

Thank you very much. I know you're burning to ask some questions. up your questions here let's hear it and i i want to just relate it to that ask you a question like ceo is a busy person there are lots of things competing for your time and so when you make time to come on a podcast like this it's it's a big deal for us but my question to you is it's not a trick question is why do you do it like what's in it for you that sounds too transactional but what's the value to you or what do you hope to get out of it when you come on a podcast notice no look i mean paul it's it's it's really not about me i think i believe in the product that that that india is putting out i think it's real i think it's it's not sensational early driven and it's not looking for the next inside scoop i think we you're trying to tell real stories about real real things happening in rugby and and that's why i'm comfortable doing this you know it's that there's really nothing in it for me um i think envy is a is a staunch bull supporter and he's been a he's been an honest bull supporter which is also a good thing you know we can't just be good weather friends you know so it's a very comfortable to be here yes and he's constantly trying to convert me to be a bull supporter and to his credit i can say by introducing me to many booth players and family and people like you i actually do watch the bulls now and share for them except if they play the stormers well you know you never know how the season will pan out paul so um maybe there's one more game to go let's talk about your history edgar you were appointed as a ceo of the bulls at 33. i mean the bulls is probably the biggest union you correct me if i'm wrong but i think you are that's a big job at a very young age i'm not saying that you couldn't do the job that's not the point the point is you know i i've been remarking about seeing you on akraman last year when he just started the job he was big eyed and see the occasion is getting to him and not in a bad way but you know the sense of the the pressure now being the ceo of this huge union you know how did you handle that and how did it come about more more importantly yeah so envy was yes it was it was obviously a massive privilege um i was fortunate enough to have seven years at the alliance before that so i felt like i i had a good grip on on the industry and and and what was going on. I was actually, before the Bulls opportunity came, there was an opportunity abroad that came along and then COVID came and I wasn't able to take that.

And then I got a phone call about there's a possibility coming to Bulls. So for me, having a young family, my wife was pregnant with our second child at that stage. It seemed like the ideal next step. You know, I had really Great times with the Lions and I had a good learning experience there, but I felt like probably a new challenge is needed. I think the biggest benefit that I had as a young CEO is the fact that it was COVID and that we did have six months to sort of myself and Jake to sit down and pan out the future and look at the squad and look at what we need and then go ahead, you know.

So it wasn't you were thrown into a competition and suddenly there was match on match on match. And we've all seen it, you know. We went through a stretch in 2022 when we lost 10 games in a row. We went through a stretch this year where we lost seven games in a row. And if that happened to me at a young age, early in my career, I think it would have been a much bigger challenge than it was when it actually came along, you know.

So I was fortunate in how it started. And also we've got unbelievable shareholders and a very strong board, you know so i was comfortable that i had the support around me to to guide me through those first six months and and sort of help me find my feet in this world that's interesting why why did you get the call why did i get the call for example i mean what made you the ideal candidate uh you're asking the wrong person because i don't important myself but but uh look yeah i mean it's a it's it's a good question i think obviously people was impressed of what we did at the lions and what we've got right there. There's also very few young people in the industry, which is quite strange in leadership positions. And maybe the Bulls thinking at that stage was that maybe we should head in a new direction and try something different. And I was fortunate enough to get that call.

I want to kind of touch on that young thing. My perception of the rugby administrative world is that it's traditionally been a little bit of an old boys club and older people, ex-rugby players. As a fan, we often think they're out of touch with kind of modern day game and stuff like that. So when you come into this position at the Bulls, which is one of the kind of hallowed franchises, and I assume the coaches are older than you, some of the players may have been older than you. like there's a lot of pressure when you become a ceo just that's a big step and then it's the bulls and then when you walk in and you're younger than many people how did that feel did you did you inside the bulls get any kind of i don't want to say pushback but a little bit of a who's this young guy here and then in the broader rugby establishment you must interact with other rugby administrators and powers was was there a little bit of them accepting you or did it go smoothly no look paul it was it was definitely accepting from the start as i say i think it was i was privileged enough to have seven years before that where you get to know most of the people in this in the industry um and and in a team environment it was i said from the start and my very first interview i did i said because someone asked me, listen, how do you feel about working with a World Cup winning coach?

I mean, you're 33 years old. He's won a World Cup. How do you deal with that? And my outlook on that from the start was, and my very first chat with Jake was that, listen, I'm never going to know more about rugby than you do. You've won a World Cup.

That is your department. I believe I understand the business behind rugby. That'll be my department. And as we go along, those two will migrate closer to each other as we get to trust each other. The rugby industry as a whole has been very acceptable to younger people.

You know, you bide your time and you listen a lot because you need to listen. And you build up your own respect by giving your inputs at the right time and making sure that you actually know what you're talking about, you know. So there is a lot of respect in the rugby industry and you need to adhere to that still, you know. Sorry, I just want to interrupt all quickly because I know he's burning to ask you the next question, but from my experience in business, I was also the boss at a young age. I learned the lesson never to say women to anyone, for example, because it immediately puts you at a disadvantage.

Did you learn the same lesson? 100%. No, 100%. There's only two people I don't call by their first name, and that's Dr. Mitzepa and Dr.

Rupert. I don't go to a first name basis there. That's a problem. I always experience that the older guys, you know, they know better than you. Who are you now?

And if you say, oh, no, man, it just upsets the power dynamics. Sorry, Paul, back to you. No, that's okay. That's the most difficult for me, reintegrating back into South Africa after 30 years is that suddenly everyone is calling me, I wish we could all agree to stop. It's a very weird thing.

I wouldn't call you. I have kind of two. When you took the job, of course you had the experience at the Lions, but not as CEO. Did you come in with kind of an assumption of what the biggest challenge of the job was going to be, of being the CEO of a rugby franchise? And did that change?

Were you correct? The things that would make you take the most of your time, was that it? Or did you learn it's something else which takes the most of the time of the CEO? Yeah, so I come from a very commercial background and ran the commercial program at the Lions and the finance program. And when I started the Bulls, what started taking up a lot of my time was agents and player contracting and sort of the dealings around this one.

never got involved with obviously coaching or game plans or side selections. I believe that's firmly in the hands of the head coach. So I wouldn't say it's my perspective changed. I think it was a quick learning course to understand how the dealings behind it works, specifically negotiating with agents and what is a fair deal and how do you deal with players. and we always just try to be fair.

I mean, that's sort of been my motto where if I've signed a person on a four-year deal, five-year deal, and he exceeds expectations within the first two years, he will be upgraded with a new deal. Because the worst thing I think a CEO or a board or anybody in rugby can do is that just say, well, we really got this player to bargain. Because you will lose that play in five years' time. or whenever his contract finishes. You need to be fair to players if they exceed your expectations.

And again, that's been an amazing thing of our shareholders and how they've seen rugby and how they understand that it's not the same as normal business. A 19-year-old can get a three-fold increase when he turns 20 and get another three-fold increase when he becomes 21 because that's just how he develops, you know, and it's not the same as business. And so that been really refreshing to have that backing of the board that understands that you know was that a big change for you coming from more of a cfo position again not to stereotype cfos are often seen as they're very focused on the numbers they're very conservative they they they don't like the kinds of scenarios that you just laid out in terms of was it a good option or look i've always i've always believed that you need to be fair so so so that hasn't been a big change but but the bottom line and and understanding what player salaries does and understanding that side of it gives you a bigger understanding on the finance side because it's very easy to say that listen guys it doesn't make sense uh financially but you need to balance that earning potential of a player to what the earning potential of the company will be because if you cut your squad too deep and you go listen we're only going to have x amount of players and we're not going to pay more than that you almost cut off your earning potential as a company um and that is it's a fine balance to strike uh between between those two and it's not that easy the morning i arrived at loftus i sat in my car and i said where the hell do i go to now and i called you and i said what do i do and he said no worries i'll come fetch you and that was an eye opener for me you took me around the entire squad um i'll talk to you about a certain player coming up to you right then that i subsequently learned something about which is interesting i'll ask you if i may talk about that or not but what you said there to me it was very important very insightful you said to me i asked you how do you divide your time you said 60 of your time is spent on rugby and 40 of your time is spent on on the ceo job of it what do you mean by 60 of the rugby you just said you don't you're not involved in rugby plans or whatever i know you said about agents and likes i saw you in those um you know briefing rooms standing at the back you know clapping and in the dressing room at half time everywhere what does that mean the 60 so india it's again i mean it's the coaches is is in control of what happens on the training pitch what happens on the pitch what happens in team selection i'll never i'll never interfere with that but it's understanding the environment and being around them enough to understand the dynamics that's going on there. So you need to spend time in that environment. You can't be aloof or just sitting in your office and think you're just going to run the business side.

You need to understand what's going on there. And secondly, yeah, unfortunately, rugby doesn't have a transfer window system like football has. So football has two transfer windows of three months or whatever it is. Rugby, as soon as you get out of it into your last 12 months of a contract, you are open to negotiate with anybody and you can imagine that means that for a 12-month period either way players are negotiating agents are negotiating and you're building your squad towards the next year or the other after and and going ahead you know so that is an ongoing job and obviously just just being there to support your your your head coach you know you can't bury he can't carry the weight of the team on his own he needs to have a signing board he needs to be open to chat to you whenever you can um and that goes for for your under 23s goes for your curry cup goes for your junior teams um that's important you know and and then after that or together with that you need to you've got your president that you need to that you need to keep informed you've got your board that you need to keep informed and vice versa you know so yes the business side if i I talk about the business side, it's the rest where you go, your sponsors are important, your suite owners are important, your season ticket holders are important. That takes up a lot of time.

And then you've got your stuff. So to find a balance. And that's why I said, listen, I think it's 60-40. It might change from day to day. But as a whole, in a season, that's probably where it is.

Right. One of the most eye-opening things that I saw was literally in the first 10 minutes, we walked into the gym and Jan Saffenten came up to you and said to you, listen, he wants to talk to you. and you had a sort of an all-knowing smile on your face you knew what this what this is about and subsequently the news broke that he decided to retire two years early but that was an interesting situation suddenly you face with a player that's not going to stay there for three years ex-being block one that you built a lot of plans around and and i hope for how did you handle that that's an interesting thing that i saw there i mean i must say i've got i've got the utmost respect for jan and how he dealt with it um he really put his family first and put his health first and said listen when i'm 40 50 60 i want to play with my kids i don't want to be restricted in that and and you must understand that the integrity that comes with that because he could very easily have stayed with for us with for two years and faked injuries or just sat in the gym and rehab and earned his paycheck and be happy with that but he was happy to say that listen the the right thing to do and the integrity of the person he is, I'll walk away from a two-year contract and the earning potential of a two-year contract because it's not fair to the other party. So yeah, I mean, for a player to do that is heartening and it just speaks to the person that Jan is, you know. So if you ask me if he was the right signing, I would say 100% he was because that's the human being is.

And something else that I noticed, you talked about being in the briefing room, is the fact that I saw personalities emerge that I wasn't aware of. You know, there's certain big perceptions in your mind, there's guys like this and guys like this. And yet when we were there, there were people speaking out, they were leading, like leadership positions that I was a little bit surprised about. Is that part of the reason why you're spending time there? You need to see that, Enver.

You need to understand the personalities. You need to sort of see them on an off-field basis as well. So we do trips with sponsors at the end of the season and we take some players with. So you spend about three days with them to understand the person behind the player. And again, that's why I mean, I find the social media critics to players very harsh sometimes.

And I actually had a chat to a journalist the other day where in the past people would say listen guys are going abroad because uh it's media pressure but i think that's changed the book now where it's almost public pressure you know that social media pressure plays a massive part on players and that's that's why we see players going to japan and and just being out of the spotlight and and suddenly they come back refreshed you know so so i mean we we in salemash today to to celebrate uh villi's hundredth cap with with paul reos if people can just understand what Vili firstly means on the field, but secondly, what he's done for the development of players like Sebastian Neklerk and Cheswil Jost, that we all see now coming through the system. You would look at with different eyes at Vili, and the reality is Vili still played 100 tests, you know. So he's a world-class player, and that's where I sort of just wish the supporters or the social media guys out there would see the player behind the person behind the player on the field and understand what he's about. That's important to me. I think that's something we talk about a lot on this channel, just in terms of how over the line sometimes us as fans are in terms of what we think is okay or not.

And I have a couple of directions. You mentioned the Vili thing that you're going to today. We kind of moved this meeting because you said you were going. I'm aware also around Wilco Lowe's dad. I don't know if you you went but I know you were actively planning to go to the funeral and stuff like that.

For a COO has so many demands on their calendar. Without meeting you my sense is that's a really important thing for you. Why is that so important? I know how much it would have meant to that family specifically, the Wilco thing. Why are those things so important to you?

so so paul i mean i think again i care about the person that's that's at the bulls um i also so so me and johanna had lots of chats about walker's situation because obviously there was lots of media speculation or social media speculation so why he's not playing and yes he's going to the stormers and all this nonsense uh and we actually came my family came through a part when my mother-in-law passed away with cancer so i saw that in real time happening to my family. So I understood what Wilco was going through. So that was, and him being the guy is, and the family guy is, I knew it was important for him to be there and get away from the rugby field because you only have one chance to be there for your parent dying. And luckily he got that opportunity. And yes, I was at the funeral.

and to see Wilke talk about his family and just how much he cares and what it means to him. Yeah, it was a heartening situation and he's an unbelievable human being and he's a great family man. So I'm very happy that, sad that he had to go through it, but very happy that he could be there and away from rugby and actually go through that process. You know what? the one thing that really struck me the most, and I've said this before, is the fact that, you know, it might be the bulls or the stormers or whatever, and everybody sort of puts them on a little bit of a pedestal and talks about them like they're this thing.

But it's not this thing. These are people. These are normal people that have feelings and impressions and, you know, ideas. And that's the one thing that I got, that I got, and Harry got the same from the stormers. They're just normal people.

And we have to keep that in mind, I suppose. And it's, I get upset about that. And we'll talk about that a bit later. but yeah that that to me is the most important thing so if if people ask me what's the toughest part about rugby is exactly that you know so if you if you're in business and you um and you work for a listed company right you go about your day-to-day job on a weekly basis and you get audited maybe every six months and you publish results and people tell you what they think of you every six months rugby is unfortunately a bit different where you get audited every weekend and every weekend it's emotion and people tell you what they think about you um and that's and that's for players that's for administrators for coaches that's the tough part that's that's that what that's what either gets you up or gets you down and and uh and yes we can ignore social media and we can ignore whatever the media says but it's it's not about us it's about your family reading it it's about your wife reading it's parents reading it and they take it personally and that's the toughest part right when my kids are still young so at least they sort of shielded about that but but but other people's kids aren't you know and that and that's where you're right that's where people need to understand that these are human beings that that get affected by it i i would just say it's a weird thing on a podcast to say to the ceo that you've never met what you did with wilco meant a lot to me personally i'm quite emotional i knew what the family was going through we decided not to talk about it when all the speculation was out. But what you did, I immediately said to Enby, I'd never met you.

I said, that's a good man. And so, Enby, you could cut that out if you want to. No, Paul, you always get emotional, man. It's kind of your thing. Yeah, I know.

But in this case, it was just I knew what that family was going through, and I know what that meant to them. And I know what a CEO's job in a typical company is. And you made a better decision in my mind. So I do want to ask you the opposite side of that. There must be times where it's hard for you to make decisions and communicate the decisions.

Of going in a different direction. We're letting a player go. We're not extending a contract. Or letting a coach go. How is that for you?

Who does the communication of those decisions and how difficult is that for you with what you've just said about how important it is for you to be close to the people? Yeah, Paul, I mean, that's the toughest part, right? and again that's where hopefully relationship comes in where they the person or the player on the other side of the table can understand what your heart is and that you'll always do what's best for the team and this proud union that we're representing. It's never going to be personal. Yeah, it's the toughest part.

there's no sugarcoats in it again Jack had 2 or 3 years left in his contract, he wasn't planning on replacing him and suddenly you were facing this situation now you have to find a new coach how did that work so I mean again there was there was internal discussions as to firstly who we would like to get um because who you would like to get and who available is two separate things um so we we may skip did our own little short list of who we would think of uh and i had conversations with all of them as to who would be available or could be be available. And then we shortlisted further with availability and then had interviews with the individuals. And Johan really stood out in the sense that look, sometimes you get coaches who the Bulls is just the next job and sometimes you get a coach who the Bulls is the job. And that was the sense I got from Johan from the start. You know, it's, this is what he's always wanted to do.

This is his dream. And he's really got a passion for this team, you know. So, and that sort of, there's lots of variables you can think about about appointing a coach. But that was the one thing that really stood out for me where I said, I think this is the right way to go. And also knowing Han is a person and how he deals with squads and the culture that he drives.

I thought this was the right next step for us and I'm very happy that obviously we've been proven right and Jan's done an unbelievable job after a tough start for him and it was always going to be a tough start you know, it was a tough time for him to come in without a pre-season without his spring marks unplanned Wales test it was almost the perfect storm for him know and and and for him to stay resilient through that and and and get his players to buy in around his plans has been has been a pleasure to watch you know and we're very excited into this next sort of few games that we're going in as to what can happen before we continue please remember to like and share this video with your friends if you if you if you want to uh youtube likes that we like that if youtube likes it and then make sure you subscribe to this channel i'm sure you already but if you're not just check and make sure that you are a subscriber it doesn't mean that you get notified that seems to be a problem of youtube lately so what we've done is we've created a whatsapp channel the link is down in our description below so you can click on there become a member of our whatsapp channel so you get informed of every new video that we post every new article that we post you never miss anything other alternative is that you visit our website megafonrugby.com and you sign up to our email mailing list so you also get updates regularly and the last thing please consider joining our channel as a member we've got three years and And every little bit helps. It helps to keep us afloat and grow this community. So, yeah, without any further ado, back to Edgar. Can I ask you for a rugby CEO?

Like rugby seems like such a different business, like a typical business. It just seems like it's more complicated. My sense is it's harder for rugby unions to make a good amount of money. And maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later. And fans are always very easy.

like we don't understand why they don't just sign this player or why they don't just buy. How constrained, can you talk a little bit about just how constrained you are sometimes in terms of the flexibility you have to do things where money is the reason it doesn't happen versus other things? So I think our biggest stance on that has been that we've got certain bans of salary for certain quality of players and we try not to move out of it um so you need to be exceptional to get to a certain band of salary um and that and that sometimes is tough and sometimes you lose players because of that you know but as soon as one player jumps out of that band it it disturbs the whole balance of of your squad um and that's why we've tried to we've tried to keep in that i must say the last the last 12 months of what we've seen in the market has made it really tough um and there's a big shift coming within south african rugby in terms of of where salaries are moving and and whether we'll be able to to retain players going forward um because because demands are getting tough and and what we've seen is that the the demands or the the of your players that are not spring box and playing week in week out for us on a urc level those and and we can understand it because i mean that's they are playing week in week out so those those demands are coming thick and fast you know so it is a challenge currently and it's it's a tough book to balance um and we're gonna have to make some changes going forward into because because i think revenues in in terms of sponsorship and that is getting maxed out. And we've seen sort of suite revenue almost, I mean, I think we've got six suites available at the stadium out of 327. So you are maxing out revenues and now you need to start looking at this, but how do we control these costs?

And whether that's, whether global season is going to change that, whether we need to manage expectations on a carry cup level, because you can then, I mean, I know NVA, you always mention that Franco says he's got 38 players. And I do think for a URC, EPCR squad, 38 to 42 players is probably the right number. But our supporters also have the expectation that, listen, we can't lose every game in the Curry Cup. It can't just be a development competition. Thus, you need to have 15 other players.

but if we start trimming down on that we understand that listen there's going to be a downfall on the curry cup then then we're probably on the right track but yeah yeah the bulls are a tough place and i know i said it in an interview the other day that the bulls is the one franchise for me where i think a building phase doesn't doesn't count i don't think the supporters buy into a building phase we we want to win we want to win every weekend um and we understand that and and that's the challenge we've taken up you know and that's that's what we need to live by and we and we're happy to do that you know we're having a whatsapp conversation once about budgets i don't remember may i ask what is a typical budget for a rugby how big a business is it because i was surprised to see there were only like 40 or 50 people not playing rugby at the union you know cutting lawns and that kind of thing how big a business is it really yeah so i think your average franchise in africa probably sits revenue wise between 250 and 400 million rand and that depends on obviously a various amount of things um we've we've seen our revenue double from pre-covered numbers up until where we are now uh which is a good thing right but but but similar to that we've had a change of test match model so we have to go look at other revenues where previously had massive reviews coming out of test matches and i still think there's a bit of work to do around the test match model and how we can get better aligned uh both parties as to just fighting in the right direction i'm sure that'll happen going forward but i i think the biggest work on for us at loftus and we're trying to figure out what the issue is is is crowd numbers i think that could be higher uh whether that's the roadworks on linwood restricting people or kickoff times i think kickoff times is playing a massive part but the road books i'm pretty sure um but it's we need to get our supporters numbers up uh and i know the next comment that's going to come in the comments is yeah just make ticket prices cheaper uh the reality is the ticket prices are cheap um and and if you give out complimentary tickets the return on complimentary tickets is 25 of people attending because if it's a saturday and the weather just looks half bad that person got a free ticket won't come to the stadium so it's not an easy solve um we are fortunate that that sundowns is one of the partners in the stadium they play lots of matches there and that has boosted our commercial program and especially the suites so we're fortunate about that but but but we need to increase attendances on normal matches. May I ask you a question of that? The perception that I have is that in rugby these days, the money made from fans coming to the stadium is not the big driver, that it's sponsorships and TV rights. I think you guys now for the first time get a cut of the URC. There's some URC money flowing in.

Is that true that the spectator seats in bums is not? What percentage of your revenue is it? And is it going down or going up or staying flat? Yeah, it stayed pretty flat. And it obviously depends on where you finish up in competitions.

So as a percentage, you probably look at 5% currently. So it's really quite small. It is small. And that's why I think that's a big work on. with the change of us getting shareholding within the URC and competitions like the EPCR where you now, if you play a playoff abroad, you actually share in the revenue of that playoff.

I mean, then you realize what the exchange rate does, right? So we could have a sold-out Stormers match but we would make more revenue playing a round of 16 events to lose, which is, I mean, it's mind bogging, right? But that's the reality. But that's because of the exchange rates. But yeah, again, I think it's a small portion of it right now, but it's a number we need to get up.

Has there ever been discussions that you've been involved in in SA rugby or world rugby to borrow some ideas from the NFL, where the franchises are all financially quite healthy? They're not all equivalent, but their franchises in big high TV markets, but there is a very robust revenue sharing model, which means that everyone feeds at the trough almost equally. I don't mean that. And then there's a second benefit of that, which I think would benefit rugby, is that it breeds competitiveness. Like, you know, the teams are closer to one another because one doesn't have a budget that's six times the other one's budget.

Has there ever been, are there discussions like that? So look, I think we've got that in South Africa, right? Because the franchises all get the same amount of team money. Whether you play a final, a quarterfinal, it doesn't really matter. So you've got some of that.

I think the commercial models within all the stadias and all the teams do differ. So I still think there needs to be a reward for people or companies that run a good business and run proper revenues that will make them more competitive. but in terms of TV money, we are all equal in terms of the future. Whether that's the right thing or not, I've sort of got a different meaning on it because if we do play a home quarterfinal, a home semifinal, a home final, for instance, then surely that's more content for your broadcaster provided by you and you should be compensated for that. But it's never been that way in South Africa.

and whether that will change the future is unsure. So I'm going to go to a completely different level. Like Envy has bugged there, which I'm sure he has bugged you about, is Sweet Caroline in the stadium. And I apologize on his behalf. For me, the big deal is when the stadiums are so empty for these games on TV, etc.

, that it takes away from the atmosphere of the game. Have you guys ever thought about sometimes moving to like you know playing at the university of pretoria in a smaller stadium or just putting your cameras so they look at your main stands so they can see more fans and that's my sweet caroline so i apologize for this question but it's the only time i can ask it so so i don't know if you realize we've actually changed the names uh the wedding of sweet caroline to sweet belmont in the the stadium. I don't know if Paul's picking up. Look, so in the southern hemisphere, there's been lots of discussions around this TV angle, especially at Ellis Park. It's not, our stadiums are built, main stand is on the west end and the other side is on the east.

So if you play an afternoon match and you put your cameras on the east side, you'll basically be in the sun and the TV picture won be good So it impractical and it not possible in South Africa where some stadiums in the north are built north to south So that's just the makeup of stadiums in South Africa. The second part of it is moving matches to smaller venues. The complication of that is twofold. Firstly, your team feels at home at his own stadium and NBA has been to our change room. we've changed a lot and it's really a home away from home.

And secondly, you've got, as I said, you've got probably 320 suites sold on a yearly basis and those fans, they want content. So to move it away from the stadium, even if that suite owner wasn't planning on coming, it toughens up that conversation with the suite owner going, okay, but now I need to make alternate plans for you. And that's the same. I mean, I read a lot about why aren't the Lions moving away from Alice Park. It's not that simple, right?

There's commercial value around Alice Park. They've got test matches. There's naming rights. There's boards. There's suites.

It's very hard to just replace that and move to a smaller stadium. Although, as we see in the UK, it's a great atmosphere once you move to a smaller stadium. And we had that at midstream. And we had it last year. and we possibly will have it in the future again.

I mean, if you look at Tuck Stadium in the Varsity Cup, it's a great atmosphere and you could have 6,000 people in there. It'll be fantastic. That would be great, but you'd cut off a whole other leg of your business if you do that. Could you talk a little bit about that seven-game losing streak? Just how much pressure and tension does that put on you as the CEO and Yuan and the whole organization.

That must have been for an organization like the Bulls. Quite tough. Can you talk about that just a little bit? Like where does it come from? How does it feel inside the org?

Yeah, Paul, it was really tough. It's a funny thing. I don't have social media, so I don't read it. But I mean, everybody tells you what social media is saying. And you do take it personally.

But I always had the feeling, and I somehow got this video somewhere in that streak, where we had the thing about if you put a block of ice in a room, right, and the room temperature is 26, you turn it up to 27, nothing happens to the ice block. You turn it up to 28, nothing happens. Turn it up to 30, nothing happens. and suddenly at 32 degrees that ice starts melting. And that was always the feeling I had with our squad where we were doing things incrementally better, incrementally better.

We weren't getting the results. And as soon as you get to that tipping point, results were going to flow. And I vividly remember the Poe game where we had the defensive block right at the end and John Rose stole the ball. And I remember the feeling of that happening and us winning that game and the sense of relief and knowing that, listen, hopefully that's the 32 degrees we needed to get to and results will start coming now. So I'm very happy for the team that it's worked out that way.

And I must compliment our leadership group within the team on how they stood up. that tour was season defining and it was led by the players as to how they pulled that group together On Monday you put out a press release to announce it we all knew we've all known for a long time no secrets in rugby yeah I mean there are no secrets in rugby but the interesting thing for me that I also learned is the fact that information sometimes gets leaked and it gets leaked too soon for example the Tinas de Beers saga is a good example you wanted to sign him but the things fell through because there was too much information floating around what is the direction the Bulls are heading in with these new signings? Kirwan Bosch, there was a lot of, you know, what's the word, people fainting in the street and the kind of thing, why are you signing Kirwan Bosch? What is the thinking behind signing him specifically and the other players along with him? What direction are the Bulls moving into?

So, I think we, so firstly, I mean, let's start with Kirwan. Kirwan played in brief. um Edward Couture was the ex-CEO of brief of Sharks was at brief or is at brief so I had a conversation with Edward and I said listen how's Kugan going uh obviously after the Tinas thing happened um and he said listen Kugan's matured so much in his time in France he's getting married now uh he's really a changed player and he's playing really good rugby and I've always rated Kirwin even when he was in South Africa I thought he had massive potential I mean he had games where against the Bulls specifically at Loftus where he was kicking out to shreds so he's always had the potential so if he's added another layer onto that it's fantastic and I think the time away from South Africa probably would have helped with that. The rest of the players are all extremely quality and talented individuals I think we are, especially next year, in a World Cup year, it's a really challenging time where the reality is you'll only have your full squad available and rested by about mid-March because of the World Cup calendar. So your team underneath your spring box needs to be hell of a strong.

And that's been a big part of our recruitment drive this year to make sure that that bread and butter beneath it is really strong. But look, I think within this group of players that we have signed, by the time we get to the next World Cup, there's a few of them involved in there as well. In terms of how recruitment works a little bit for the Bulls, and maybe it's simple for you, but it's unclear for me. How much do you have like a plan with the coaches that looks a year out and says we want to play this style of rugby, we have this gaps, we need these skills, these talents, and then you try to build towards that versus it's just necessitated that you look who's available in the market and says who fits what we need the best. Is it a mixture of how does that process drive towards these kind of signings?

Yeah, look, I think it is a mix. There's a certain type of player that you look for, and then it depends on who's available, right? So, I mean, you could you could all i think that's probably the most fun part of being a fan or being a fantasy league player so you can say listen this is my dream team the reality is that dream team will never be available at the same time as we said you can only negotiate with the player if he's within the last 12 months of his contract so um that does make it challenging but but look a big drive of ours over the last few months have been we first look at character as to what person will fix fit into the bulls and then look at the rest. That's been a massive drive and I think that's why people like Luan Gilomir has brought into our system and he's had a good chat with Akers as to what his role will be and how he'll develop in our system and we're lucky to then get him into there. Sango has obviously been with us previously and been a sucks captains you have him back in Pretoria is massive you know and Andrew Libenbach back in Pretoria is massive and and and just the character that Dylan Mart has is is unbelievable I mean he reminds me so much of a Cornel Hendricks uh it's actually scary you know so it's it's really good people that we're getting in firstly uh and that normally translates into good rugby on the field I know we're running out of time I have so many questions left to ask you but that gives me opportunity to schedule another interview but your relationship with SA rugby I mean that's another one where you have to sit in the room with the grown-ups kind of thing what's that like and you just mentioned the test model being changed and the effect it has on you and we talked about that and also now you know the costs of plane tickets and fuel and everything else soaring because of things that are completely out of your control that that's a challenge I mean your income is being cut on the one hand your expenses go up on the other side you just said you maxed up your sponsorship, how do you approach that?

How do you work with SA Rugby, for example, to get around this? And is it a shared kind of approach to make sure everybody is okay going through this tough time? The relationship between ourselves, all the franchises and SA Rugby is a different one to a normal relationship where it's I mean, if you don't get along with the supplier, you tell the supplier, listen, find something else to do. If you don't get along with the employee, tell them, find something else to do. the relationship between SA Rugby and the franchise is symbiotic so whether we get along or agree on something or not we need to find a way and I think that's what we're all working on and that's what we're all working towards and we're finding each other in that where we just every decision that we need to make firstly needs to be in the best interest of the spring box but also below that look at the interests of the franchises because the reality is the spring box can't survive without successful franchises underneath i mean we could think that all our spring box can play in japan and france and it's just not a reality right so we need a strong franchise system and we need our usc teams to be financially strong and and and stable and that's and that's what we're all working towards um So the shareholding within the ULC has definitely assisted in that.

But I do think there's a few other things that we still need to iron out to get closer to that point where the system as a whole is sustainable. The value for me of conversations like this for us as fans is that it educates us so that we're more informed in the shouting that we do about the rugby franchises we love. and I'd say in a very nice way you've shut me up for something I've been on for the last year about the empty stadiums and you said two things that even though I think I'm a smart person I never thought about like the sweets and those and the sun and everything and so I really appreciate it and we hope that that helps all our fans to be more informed of their criticism and their passion I wanted to ask you is there some other thing like that that if you look at what all of us passionate fans are yelling and saying that you think I wish they would just understand this it's not as easy as that in terms of the constraints that you're in your organization deal with no look I think Paul I think we've we've addressed most of it I think the most important thing we need to understand is that every person in South Africa in his profession doesn't wake up every day feeling 100% and going, he's on his top form every day, right? But we do expect that from our sports stars. And yes, they are highly paid, but so is some individuals in the business place.

And we need to understand that we're human beings and there's things that happen in their lives and they can't be at 100% the whole time. And if we just keep that in our back of the minds the whole time, that yes, he's my hero. Yes, he's an unbelievable player. But he is a human being. I think that's the most important thing.

After that, a lot of things will iron itself out because you would have compassion for the player. You would understand that win or lose, you're still a supporter. You'll come to the stadium. A lot of those things will just remember that small part that not everybody of us is 100% every day. What brought it home for me was I was driving home from Loftus one night and Mornay Schmidt pulled up next to me at the robot.

And just like a normal guy going home from work. And that's when it sort of clicked for me. These are normal people. And I met him and everything else. So, Paul, I'm going to interrupt you a little bit here and say thank you to Edgar for making time for us.

I know you have this Valila Ruthing tonight. So, thank you so much. And I honestly want to talk to you about a bit more when we can, if we can, at the later stage, because this was such an eye-opener. Thank you. Thanks, India.

And, yeah, thanks for a great conversation. And thanks, Paul. was it was it was great to have a chat with you and we uh we both got a bit emotional at one stage but it's but that's part of it right that's why we end this yeah thank you very much edgar it is indeed an honor for me literally an honor for me to meet you and talk to you this is the long way to the game only on megaphone rugby Thank you.

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