The Most Dominant Scrum in the URC | Brok Harris & Sazi Sandi

This man is the big beating heart of the locker room. He sings, he dances, he's reached his 50th cap, he dummied a tight here to score a try this year. He's the only man to make Andre Hugo Frenzor smile during a scrum. The Buffalo City boss, the big smoke, Sazi Sandi. He's probably the most explosive prop in South Africa, maybe in the world.

But it's hard to think when your necks getting corkscrewed, Sazi. How do you maintain your thought process when you kind of want to cry and go into a fetal position? It takes practice, I'll tell you that. Yeah, and be greedy. Don't say there'll be another time like, this is it.

This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. Hello again, Lekker Rugby Pod followers and listeners. We have this wonderful series going where I drive in there crazy with stormer after stormer after stormer after stormer. Today is not an exception. It's the coach and a player series.

And this week we're having a guy, a coach, who also played about 450 matches, which means he scrummed at about 3,531 scrums at this top level. Almost 2,000 of those scrums were in Wales. So there's actually a dragon. Actually, it's a dinosaur named for him in Wales. It's called the Brockosaurus.

So basically he goes both ways in a rugby sense, a swing pop. If you piled each scrum that he's been in on top of each other, it would almost reach the moon and it would generate about 580 penalties. Now he teaches the Stormer scrum to be the best scrum in the ERC. His name is Brock Harris. How's it, Brock?

How's it, Harry? Yeah, thanks for the invite. Good to be here. Yeah, I know you're really close right now to where you used to live in Wales. getting ready for the final round.

And your partner in crime this week is the pride of St. Andrew's College, the most famous rugby player ever to come from there. Sorry, Nick Mallet, it's not you. Head boy, like all props in the Stormers are required to be nowadays. Hookers or not, Andre Hugo Fenter is the opposite of a head boy, whatever that's called, a foot boy maybe.

This man is the big beating heart of the locker room. He sings, he dances, he's reached his 50th cap, He dummied a tight head to score a try this year. He's the only man to make Andre Hugo Fenton smile during a scrum. The Buffalo City boss, the big smoke, Sazi Sandi. How's it, Sazi?

How's it, guys? Happy to be here. Very happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm not the most famous St.

Andrews guy. Definitely start with Nick Mullet and Ryan Kinkowski, and then you can go with me. But happy to be here. I guess it's kind of daunting when you're going to St. Andrews.

the guy next to you might be the son of the standard bank ceo you know it's quite a posh school um so talk to me about your journey it's probably the thing i don't know the most about uh stormers do this great thing when i was with you in pe there was this you know where i'm from and it's family it's roots so how did this happen how did how did how did a guy like you become a tight head prop at the stormers you know from where you came so obviously i was born in east london raised in Grahamstown, did my schooling in St Andrews. And I think that's where, you know, the love for scrumming started. You know, it's always a prop. I never played any other position. So from about grade three, when you start scrumming, you know, I was a loose head.

But I was quite heavy when I was 14. I was about 115 kgs. And my coach told me, listen, yeah, I was quite a porky kid. my coach was like listen hold yourself like listen to me your tight head i wasn't very happy about that um but you know in hindsight over the years had a few um good coaches at school alan miles um lawrence christie um they helped me a lot in my development you know and i became very like scrum crazy um heading out of school and got to the dorms um had guys like shimmy um what's his name um Peter Villas as well SNA 20 Joffin Vake at the Institute um coming up to having Brock so I've got luckily I've had really good coaches along the way you know and it's kind of helped me to get to this point and even more scrum crazy as I've the more I've learned over the years so um that's kind of been the journey scrum wise and rugby wise um played at Marty's um did all my age group levels after school in Western Province. And yeah, it's actually been a blessing to be here.

Yeah, so guys, the Scrum is an interesting place. In some ways, it's a lonely place. It can be, especially for a tight head. You basically got, you know, you've got faces on both sides of you. You're feeling whiskers and ears.

People are grabbing you in unmentionables. And you still have to go through a process. And there's a bind, there's a lean, there's an extension. and sometimes you're in trouble and you've got to work your way out. Brock, you've been in more scrums maybe than any other human being.

How do you teach that? The mentals, the psychology of the scrum, which is just totally different than any other contest on the field because your opponent and you are stuck together a little bit in a bit of a dance. Yeah, Harry, I think it's basically a balancing act. It's doing that experience. it comes by doing it actually, doing it quite a lot and putting guys in different scenarios so yeah, whatever the opposition will bring to the table we try and simulate that as well, but there's no substitute for doing it and experiencing it on a regular basis I reckon you can obviously technically show videos and stuff but the big thing is you need to have time on task that i call it um yeah so get the guys in uh let them do it let them experience different scenarios and yeah hopefully it works out uh and as you go on and they get older and more experience uh like sazi when i got here um he was struggling with buying this stuff and overextended because he's so explosive um little bit of work-ons and yeah And now he doesn't have any resets anymore, except if the Lucid can't handle the pressure.

The huge story, obviously, this year is that you have harvested like 58 something penalties on your scrum, which is a generator. It's a power generator. It's literally like having power all the time for easy exits, easy entries, shots at goal. That probably translates to about 60 points right there and then. it's called a card generator for the other side and it's a discourager sazi for the other team once you know they don't want to scrum with you you're wetting your lips aren't you 100 percent um you always want to get into a game and uh present the right pictures but also a certain level of dominance where you get the other team kind of doubting and getting out of their system you know and once you've got a team there you want to just keep your foot on the throat and just you know keep applying pressure because if the scrum is going well it makes everything else easier for the rest of the team you know moving forward even if it's not in your ball so yeah it's a plus minus brock you obviously my analogy is tennis you know if i'm going for aces on my first serve every single time then i'm gonna have more faults so then i'm gonna have my second serve as well which means i'm probably gonna have a few more offenses against me you know so that huge number 58 and then there's you know the counter number um it's it's a risk reward because you're going for it therefore there's going to be calls made um there's no one there's no other scrum though in world rugby right now doing it like you're doing was that something you sort of consciously decided we have to go for it we're a scrum culture you know we're sort of the epicenter of scrums and and we're going to just own it uh because it's there's a risk there sometimes on the on the luxury calls yeah uh yeah i think uh that's the main aim is is to get the buy-in and it's a it's like you say it can be a lonely place for a prop but uh we speak about all eight together buying from from the whole pack back five connecting with your with your front row and yeah we we've got that culture of we're gonna go for it um and we will do our best to show the ref the cleanest picture as we can but sometimes we get it wrong and sometimes there's a 50-50 call that doesn't go our way unfortunately and and we don't dwell on it too much like with the previous question is we learn from that and and try and fix it on the go and not come on a monday and say listen we should have done that should have done that we try and problem solve in the game already half time we'll make new plans if something happens but if it goes well we just keep with that mindset of applying that pressure and trying to create that dominance for us sazi your scrum actually assembles quicker i'm watching it and you're ready you know you're ready to scrum it's almost old school like it's not restarting because of stormers it's it's you guys are ready you know the bind the shift the little wiggle uh and you're also having incredible force behind you from locks and from flanks uh do you ever turn around and say to bj stop it man you're pushing too hard you're gonna crumple me no no i never discouraged the guys behind me because um we often say as props you know we're so fortunate to have a back five that is as excited as us to scrum you know that that that gives you the the most confidence going into scrum knowing that whenever I go down I've got my guys with me and they will beat me the whole way and it kind of takes away a big a big factor in your in your thought process because all you know you're thinking is I must do my job what is my process and what is the things that I need to do in this 30 seconds that will make this scrum work because I know the guy next to me behind me and at the furthest the back the eighth leg is going to do his role to make sure this machine works so yeah to be honest like we're blessed to be in this kind of scrum culture you know like a lot of people would die to be in a scrum culture like this because flip it it's it's awesome especially after you get a penalty you see how excited your back line gets because they know exactly how much effort we put into it and how much we actually enjoy doing it you know so yeah you see you see in time after time it's when the back line has the most chirp is what a scrum penalty had nothing to do with it they're all running in and going crazy jumping on you you obviously it's interesting because a lot of sports you have to calm down your heart rate because you have to think in a scrum a scrum is the ultimate chess game in rugby and you just you know you're a carrying prop and you're good in open field uh all the props and stormers are handlers uh we saw nittling silky handling and that three one two whatever try front row try i'm sure he's still talking about it um but i mean you you have to then get ready for a scrum where it's really technical.

Brock, how do you teach your guys? And I mean, your guys are making big strides. You know, we just saw Zach Knittling. Paul DeVilliers is an honorary front driver, I think, now, getting into the lineman camp. How do you teach that, you know, sort of to get calm?

Almost like a kicker taking a few minutes before, a few seconds before they kick the ball. Yeah, I think it comes down to training, Harry. Yeah, we train it quite a bit. under fatigue. We won't just do scrums.

We'll sometimes go into a more defense into a scrum. So in that transition between the two, you need to find your clarity of mind and the connections. We speak about connections. So and that's a couple of seconds you need to just flip the switch again and say, listen, I've taken a couple of risks, next crumb, what is our process, go through that process, and then, yeah, hopefully the outcome is positive. I want to ask you a silly question but you talk about pictures and this is part of your preparation your process you just talked about What does pictures mean You say I want to show pictures What does that mean I mean I sitting on the outside and I have to be pleased Yeah so what pictures mean is we're conscious of the refs hasn't been in a scrum ever.

Usually traditionally backline players that becomes refs, and if they look from the outside, they don't want to see any hips lower than your chest or chest lower than your hip. So we call it just chest parallel to the ground and a picture of dominance. So we focus on our speed, try to get in our best scrum position as you, if they take a ruler, they see that nice scrum position. The 50, well, we believe the 50-50s will go our way rather than to the opposition. if we're in that positive picture.

And then, obviously, if it's not, then we'll try and have just a conversation with the ref and ask him, listen, what picture do you want to see? Because we don't want to give away penalties or free kicks. So, yeah, that clear picture of nobody's hitting down or upwards, nice and parallel to get into the contest. Yeah, once you've earned that reputation, you're getting calls sometimes on the 50-50 because people think, oh, it's the Storm with Scrum. They're dominant.

But you had to earn it. But there's so many parts of that. Some referees look at a different part of the picture, the weight, the balance, the flex, the bind, the recovery, the angles. Franz Malherber said that he actually starts a conversation during the match early on. And he's very polite.

So if they shut him down, he doesn't care. If they keep going, then he gets information. So I see how much of that communication that comes is going on refs seem to start that conversation nowadays. They literally come talk to the, they get the front rows together and they have a chat. You know, do you engage at that point or are you a quiet scrummager?

It just depends. Often before a game, we designate a guy who will speak to the ref. You don't want to have too many guys talking to the ref. And in the case of last weekend, it was Andre who would communicate to the ref and then he would filter that information through us. So in that instance, as well before the game, the ref will tell us what he wants to see.

So we have a guideline of, okay, the ref doesn't want one side going forward. He wants both sides going forward at the same time. And that's the picture he wants to see, control, et cetera, et cetera. So I take that information and I apply it as best as I can. And whatever happens in the game, Andre will then ask me or ask the loose head on said day.

And then he'll relapse the ref or if he feels like he's got the picture, you'll talk and come to us. And then we kind of just go from there. you know but i often just stick to my job and just you know listen yeah and you know the i went to look at the motto of your school your great school st andrews uh in grahamstown and it it's uh nick aspera terrant which is um difficulties do not dismay us yeah uh what a resilient motto that is uh talk to me about that in the scrum you're gonna it's not always gonna go your way you're gonna get overextended you're gonna slip sometimes you're gonna pancake and um the forces on you um you know when that happens it's got to be unbelievable yeah um yeah that motto has actually been something i've carried my whole life you know since i started st andrew's um and it's it's it's proved you know correct as time has gone on um as i said we're fortunate to have a scrum culture that we have um as props and with braki and shimmy we all just kind of whatever pictures we get or struggles we have we talk we share notes you know so that by the time you get to the field you have this like notebook in your head you know when you feel this often i go to brocky and i'm like okay i'm thinking this i'm thinking that you're like okay maybe not that way maybe this way and then from there you start cutting out the stuff that you're actually overthinking and keep it in a simple kind of process so if this happens and i instantly know okay sazi your feet are too far back or you're left with this or your connection here um and that's how it kind of just goes on so if something goes wrong you know when i was younger i think the world is ending but now that i'm old and a bit more experienced you know i kind of slow down i'm like oh flip i kind of have a little smile because i know exactly what to do the next gram and you know more often than not it works out so It's interesting, you know, in the early part of my life, it felt like everything was coming easily. All the accolades, recognition, both in athletics and sports and rugby, but also in life. Then I hit a rough patch in my life.

And Brock, I don't know if you've ever done that, but, you know, you learn a lot from failure. You learn a lot from being exposed. Sometimes you go, oh, and then that's horrible. But then I think later now, what I think is, give me some, give me some failure. give me some adversity because i think that's when i learn the best do you find that i mean now you're not doing your teaching it's almost like they listen closer to you when they got moved yeah 100 yeah so i as a player also went through it especially that transition period from stormers to dragons um different scrum culture different uh philosophies all that stuff uh yeah so that first couple of months for me was a massive learning curve of how to be a titan actually um that's i say always that's probably where i learned is that when you switched when you went to newport yes yes yeah so that was completely different uh philosophy and all that stuff and i got yeah i got scrummed in training i was like yes yeah but um and now i know what and it's good to be challenged in that sort of way and now i know if a tightrope training goes through the same that i went through there's some some boxes you need to tick um yeah and then i'll spend time with them and say listen this and that and um yeah and like i say it it comes by time on toss so um yeah and fair play to the for to the boys uh they're willing to listen and willing to try it and i'm I'm not a guy that will say, you must do it.

It's a guy, try it. If it works for you, let's keep it. If it's not working, we'll find a different way of getting to the end product. I want to ask you, I spent some time with the Bulls, I had to bring a Bulls angle here. I was looking for one desperately and I found it.

I spoke to Randall Crear and he spent many years at Scarlet's. So what's the difference between the Wales or Welsh scrummy culture compared to South Africa in general? because you both had a big part of your career as you spent there. Yeah, so basically in Super Rugby, they used the scrum just to get the game started again because of the conditions. We want to play an expansive game.

The scrums was between 8 and 12 seconds, so you can survive in on the angle. Traditionally, the tight, it's just heavy in. And then when I got here, the scrums was between 15 and 20 seconds. so then you can't survive there if you're not heavy enough so you needed to learn how to stay square otherwise you end up on top of your locks so that was the massive thing and how to do it because everybody says you want the right shoulder but you need to be square how are you going to get that angle to get your right shoulder and all that so it was a case of their mindset here was we're going to scrum for penalties in super rugby. It was like sometimes you go for one or two, but the majority of the time we were going to have high ball in play, intensity.

Yeah, so that was basically the difference between northern and southern atmosphere scrum mindset. It's quite welcome now that we play rugby up north because it's something that you learned that wouldn't have worked otherwise. I mean, it's a good move. Exactly. So, yeah, no, it's good.

And they buy into it. and yeah, I call it fool's gold. So if you go into that nice place, it's comfortable there for two or three seconds, but yeah, you can't survive there. Yeah, it sort of plays into our hands. That being said, and this is going to sound very strange for me to talk about an aspect where you're on top of the log in scrums, but I almost think they raised the bar in the two years now of what they need to see, the picture they need to see before they'll ping.

There's even a rise to me of if you have the ball under the lock's feet and you're going forward and it's not stationary, I don't know why the refs can say to use it. You are using it. You're using it to get a scrum penalty. You could technically scrum all the way the whole pitch and score a pushover try. Do you feel like there's a bit of a move?

I know there was a Shape of the Game conference and we won that debate for today. But the idea that it's not rugby until the ball is being phase played compared to a mall drive, a set-piece game, which plays up to our strengths? Yeah, I think rugby, without a set-piece, then we can go to rugby league. So I think it's still an important part of it, and that's why people watch it, and especially the New Zealanders, the English, France, they still want to have that physical confrontation of scrums being dominant. And that's where we pride ourselves as South Africans.

Bulls, sharks, us, lions, pretty dominant set piece. Yeah, so that's a big part of rugby union. So you can't hide away from it. But in saying that, people also want to see this nice, expansive game. So, yeah, we try to give them a bit of both.

But, yeah, sometimes it just doesn't work out. Yeah. You were always a carrying prop, you know, mobile. Sazia, I went back and I actually went on your Instagram and I watched a try, sort of a screenshot by screenshot that you scored and you dummied your opposite tight head, you know, a little swivel hit there. You broke the tackle of a lock.

And then you had to dodge Evan Ruiz, who was getting in the way. I think he was trying to block for you or something, but you shoved him away and then you scored a no TMO try. Obviously, you're comfortable. with the ball in hand. Talk to me about that.

How many times do you get to carry? Are you always offering yourself to me and saying, hey, me, me, me, look at me? Yeah, look, to be honest, I always want to carry. I want to get as close to the ball as much as possible, whether it be on attack or defense. I just think sometimes it just works out differently.

Often in a team environment or in a team game, you can't be selfish and try and get all the carries. You've got to work in system, and you've got to be willing to do the dirty work as well. So, yeah, I avail myself as much as possible, but I'm just as happy to hit a ruck or to tackle someone. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I've always been comfortable with the ball since school days, you know, so it's not really something that I'd run away from.

Yeah, Storm's props are getting a lot of highlights nowadays. We see Tuk's running an open field last week and telling people to get out of the way. Obviously, your primary job, obviously, is set piece. You're lifting, you're lifting on restarts, you're lifting in line outs, and you're scrumming and you're doing the mall drive. Brock, do you actually get involved in the mall drives or is that a different portfolio?

How does that work? Yeah, I stay in my lane. Yeah, we obviously bump ideas from each other, but Rito, he's focused on all the malls and setting out and systems and all that stuff. But yeah, we will speak during the week. And I must say that's also a nice thing between the coaches.

There's no egos. And he's asking this and I'm suggesting. And he's like, yeah, maybe we must do it that way or different ways. So yeah, I'm solely focused on scrums. But obviously give my input when asked You in your home patch this week Is everyone asking you for recommendations on what to eat where to go And are you recognized on the street in that part of Wales?

No, that's one thing. Not so popular here than back home. Yeah, well, it's ever since I've left. So there's a couple of fans, but the boys have been asking me we went out on Saturday Cardiff was quite busy because the sun was out so everybody was out and about so Saturday was a good day and we also had a nice dinner last night in a proper restaurant that we used to go do our Christmas dinners at so yeah, a special memory of being back in Cardiff Sazi, I always go to Stats when talking to players. I just wanted to alert you to one of your great stats is that you have only made one bad pass the whole season.

So I'm actually thinking that you should play fullback. I'm promoting big smoke at fullback from now on. I want you to be running at few speeds. That's probably out of three passes the whole season. So it's not much for you.

Fair. No, there was nine. Okay, there was nine total. So you're going at 90%. Also the ERC, as we call it, the urc has funny stats sometimes and one one thing that's interesting is um you almost almost all of your tackles are dominant you know there's a definition of dominant i get i get that that's subjective but um is that something you pride yourself to is unloading bringing the big smoke yeah it is it's something that i really enjoy you know getting stuck into people you know it's it's one of them it's been one of my superpowers since i was young and um over the years you know sometimes you take a little dip and you get back um and more so especially this year just been trying to get back into you know getting the right positions to kind of hit people you know that's where i really enjoy my game is hitting people and making them feel that i'm there and you know it also gives your teammates a boost as well when they see their you know their teammate hitting someone you kind of also want to get stuck in so yeah something i've really enjoyed over the years and it's it's so related to your primary job at scrum right there's still a hit there there's timing uh there's a loading process and so forth the timing for the tight head is different from a loose head right i mean it's very difficult the sequencing at scrum you know you got the hooker trying to get his head into your chest you've got the the the the loose head trying to bind you where you don't want him to bind you hook us through that sort of process of how you get set for that hit?

First I let my loose head bind first then I'll get my bind and then I make sure that I'm not behind my hooker, I present forward to make sure that all our hips are in line and that I'm not you know behind my loose head as well you know just the way we want to scrum and then from there I make sure that my feet are in a good position so that when I do hit I'm not overextended and I fall or I'm not in a bad position where I can't apply pressure, you know, almost being like a 90 degree, you know, a bit more or less kind of vibe where, however you feel comfortable, but I feel more comfortable at 90 from the bind. Bind wise, I try to get just a good solid bind to make sure that when the pressure comes from the back, that there's no pre-engagement and give myself enough space so that I can really move across the line once the referee calls set and just from all those little things from the connection to the hooker to my back five making sure my lock comes in and his head is comfortable as well because if he is not comfortable in the sense of it's not improperly then he's not going to give me the best pressure that the team needs and then from there you know then I just kind of get into the rest of the process as the pack of eight so that's my kind of process before scrimp so when we started talking brock dropped a little nugget there he said you're too explosive what does that mean well i'll answer that he he's probably the most explosive prop in south africa maybe in the world so that's that's saying if he's got this much much space you'll win it every time um and that was something when we started um that was actually his big downfall because he couldn't control that because because of his quickness or his speed the lucid was always under pressure can't take the pressure and then he dropped it so yeah um like you said now his feet's just a little bit more underneath him and and he's got that control now over his um explosive speed what what makes him explosive is it his legs or was it his technique cool what is it I think it's my my leg strength um at school I did a lot of CrossFit stuff power lifting um you know um I can't tell you when and when it started but I know at school my one of my coaches put me in the gym early I told you I was like 115 kgs at 13 years old um so he you know in grade eights aren't allowed me in the gym but they used to take me to the gym get on the do some box jumps and all that stuff and i fell in love with the gym especially more like power lifting um and i think it just stems from the power lifting i did at school and the squatting i used to love squatting and hated upper body um and i think it kind of just stems from there and also my family has a bit of explosive quick change my brothers were both quite fast over 100 meters um at school so a bit of genetics and also some some work behind it as well yeah yeah if you can have explosion and dynamism at 125 kgs it's kind of a nightmare brock is your point on that because i i once upon a time one day i scrummed against ox inch and and he he took me through why why he killed me uh and he said it's because i let my i let the tight head do something it's i'm responding it's it's almost like a conversation and so if you overextend or you go too quick or you're too explosive that's actually up ox's alley because now he can play with his feet because his his strength his superpower his feet um sort of so it's a game within a game isn't it it's so fascinating and i wish that commentators would expose that real time in games uh just like nfl does on line of scrimmage stuff because it's fascinating it's the little nuances it's it's interesting so if you obviously ox is one of the world's best loose heads so yeah there's a different kettle of fish when you scrum against him and you must obviously be on your a game and but yeah he's got the ability to in the scrum identify that and that's the experience part of in the scrum not after the scrum already seeing this pressure i need to do this to get the reward so and that's why he's so good but it's hard to think when you're next getting corkscrewed son how do you how do you maintain your thought process when uh you know when you you kind of want to cry go into a fetal position it takes practice i'll tell you that it takes you know the the more times it gets scrum the more you start you know forcing yourself to think in the moment and to think while things are happening you know almost to multitask i know they say men aren't famous for multitasking but in that in that sense you are multitasking you know live you know so yeah you're just kind of forced to do it after some time once upon a time uh brock uh even you know before you played you know in the old days uh there were 25 scrums 30 scrums a game just normally and i literally can look at the world cups and every four years there's less at the same time more percentage were penalized which sort of made up for the lack of scrums it's still a dispositive thing in the game you can still lose a game because of your scrum because you would leak penalties um you had the interesting a week ago you had no put-ins there's no stormers feeds at a scrum i mean when does that ever happen has it ever happened to you in your career never yeah no over my whole career i cannot recall one instance where we didn't have a scrum on our own ball. So, yeah, that was really weird. I can't really explain it. And, yeah, we had three advantages, but, yeah, we obviously played because of who we are.

So we didn't get that scrum on our ball. It was very strange. Is that a trend? We saw the same thing with the Bulls against, who was it now, Scarletts, I think. that they only had one or two scrums on their own putting as well.

Are they trying to neutralise the strength of the bulls and the storm machine scrums, maybe? Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think, obviously, they know we've got a good scrum and the bulls. So, yeah, I think there's definitely something they'll mention in the week and say, listen, boys, we need to be squeaky clean. We can't afford to give away silly knock-ons, unforced errors, because the chances of them getting penalties will be big.

So, yeah, I think it's probably a massive focus point for them, not trying to engage in set-piece battle. I've got a secret plan. Brock, don't worry about it. I'm going to talk to Sascha. And if he can kick the ball on someone's hand to make them do a knock-on, that's the set play.

We insist on scrums. Sascha, it's difficult to be a professional rugby player. you've got a lot of things pulling you one way or the other uh now you're what 27 years old so um what what what would what would uh 27 year old sazi tell 17 year old sizey about this business and what would you do differently i guess i'll probably tell the younger me to enjoy the process of it and not kind of rush and wish away time um it sounds a bit vague but i mean in the sense of you know when you're young you're not really because you recover so quickly you're not really focused on your body because you just everything just happens quickly you know you can play on the saturday and monday you fresh you run and you're getting you're on the monday and all guys are like oh just slow down like just relax it's only monday you know but i'm like just ready to go but now when i've gotten older i've i've found the joy and you know after training day i I hit the gym, I do my recovery process, I do my rehab, ice bath, treatment, you know, and, you know, sometimes get home at like six o'clock or five o'clock, but I enjoy that. And that has proven very good for me this season, especially where I've been available for the whole season, whereas when I was younger, you know, halfway through the season, I've got some sort of a niggle, soft tissue or something like that. And it's also, you know, balancing your life outside of rugby, you know, to kind of give you the balance mentally you know to be able to switch off but also give you enough time to switch off to be back and give your best at rugby and not stretch yourself too thin with too many things and and kind of having that balanced lifestyle whether it be at home playing xbox or reading a book or doing some studies or going to church you know do everything that will fill your cup up because that will give you the best possibility of enjoying the process not necessarily success but the process over time will get you that but you know i would tell a younger me to just slow down enjoy the process do all the things that will benefit you as a human being then we'll fall into your rugby life and things will often become slower in that case because you know when you have a good process often you're not overthinking as much as you would if everything is disorganized you know so i'll kind of tell my 21 years off that That's such a wonderful, almost an essay.

So now I see why you're a head boy. So Brock, it's different to do than to teach. It's famously true that very few of the best, best players become great coaches. Most of the time coaches are drawn I mean you know Rossi is an exception but most of the top coaches they were not superstars as players and they had to think their way through it They had to explain things What's that transition like been for you? I mean, in some ways, I see, I've always watched you as a player, thought it was cool that in some ways, and don't take this the wrong way, but you were every man.

You were a guy out there that we could identify with, and here you were with this long career you know you weren't some you know jonah lomu or you know duan van de merva sort of thing you just you just did it with your with with thinking it through and being tough um what's it like now to explain that how do you explain how to be tough how do you explain how to think it through you know it's different than doing it yeah no obviously i've always wanted to be on the coaching side of it um but yeah it is like you say it's not sometimes not very easy but I think with this group obviously I played with a lot of them and the coaching side of it when I say something I'm not thumb sucking it I think it comes from good intentions obviously the honesty the experience I think that's probably the thing and I try to keep it light hearted if you call it but also process driven So we've got our processes and we'll also always revert back to that if something happens. So I think that's probably the key thing is to give these guys boxes to tick when we're in game situation. And yeah, that's just something I tend to do or had to do as a player. I needed to have boxes because I couldn't be disorganized. So I had scrums, this line-outs, this small boxes that I needed to tick every time.

So, yeah, I tried to obviously get that across to these players. So, yeah, and the buy-in is actually amazing, Harry. It's got to be short and sharp, right, in the heat of the moment. In preseason, you can have these long, you know, explanations. but in the end it's got to be one or two words to to to be able to communicate in the moment isn't it yeah yeah yeah yeah not big long messages you can't yeah say a couple of stuff it's short bullet point stuff there we go and then monday it's the biggest stuff then you go into more detail you were always a guy that could soak a lot of pressure up uh brock you were always a guy that could make the other guy lose his head you know but you wouldn't uh but i saw you in a coaching box this season and this one crucial scrum where it just was roller skates i mean obliteration and you just big fist punch you know which i've called the brock and uh and i saw more emotion coming out of you is it kind of weird you suffer more as a coach don't you like if they're out there you won't you're wanting them to do something you know it's different yeah and that's the thing so you can do as much coaching but you don't have any control and and that's the sad part of not playing is like you give the control to the eight or to the yeah to the the pack that's playing on the weekend and and if it comes off yeah i'm not a guy that's massive on emotions and you can't be there the whole time but pressure situations big moment we get the penalty yeah then then i'll show a bit of emotion yeah so it's uh there's guys you want to play for it's a personal business there's a trust between a player and a coach uh it strikes me i wouldn't want to make i wouldn't want to disappoint brock you know i don't want to come back and and have him be disappointed in me uh it's the quiet coaches they get you the most isn't it you know you don't want to disappoint those guys no 100 especially brocky you know he's a person who's always willing to listen and understand and help, you know, especially when you're somewhere like that, you feel almost an extra sense of, you know, he's putting so much into me, you know, the least I can do is give that back.

You know what I mean? When you're on the field and the message that he's given you, you know it's not coming from a bad place, it's coming from a good place and also from a place of experience because he's been in those positions. and you know often you know in in games or in training sessions a few of the things that he's spoken over the years maybe things he's forgotten that he's taught me it kind of plays into my head you know subconsciously and consciously at the same time um so when you're in a game where you get an opportunity to play you know you feel that responsibility and gladly so to be like flip you know brocky's putting so much to me over the years and he doesn't understand the impact he's played over the time since he's joined until now and we don't often say that you know often enough but you know you have a great sense of pride in who you're playing for it's it's great to be inside the stormers culture as i've been privileged to be and see the where i come from being so different um and the bridges that are built between people between people that maybe wouldn't have met except for rugby uh brock are you enjoying that side of it you know the ability to just listen to stories and hear where people come from and the and the challenges that they had to overcome yeah you know i i really enjoyed it and it gives you a little bit of a perspective perspective um yeah so um yeah so for instance um abupa that to where you're from how he needed to ride the bus get up at four in the mornings then you'll be late for school at eight i'm like but how does that work like and then you went through that and that just gives you a bit of perspective of like here um guys not bailing out um persevering all that type of stuff and some easy some not uh but yeah we all have a place in this team and and rightfully so um yeah so that's really a an awesome thing and it's a powerful thing to take all those backgrounds and generate, streamline it into in one direction and one purpose. So it's really nice. One more round before the knockouts, but isn't it kind of in some ways knockouts already?

Is that how you're approaching it for this week, guys? I mean, in some ways you want to go into the knockouts on energy with momentum with your processes working um at the same time you know you don't want to uh to lose the plot so how are you approaching this final round in cardiff no this is massive this is yeah it's probably the biggest game of them all of the season um so we're already in the quarterfinals but we need to do well on friday to to try and secure um what's coming up next. So ideally we know traveling in the UFC is tough. So we're in a position where we can make it easier for ourselves. I'm not saying we can't travel.

It doesn't matter where we play. I think we're good enough to go toe-to-toe against anybody anywhere. But yeah, it's always easier to try and play at home. So yeah, Friday will be a massive game against the Cardiff Blues. Yeah, so Cardiff kicks a lot.

They're actually in some ways different from a lot of the other teams in the league in that they kick and chase. They don't have big high carry team. They don't actually, you know, not gain line monsters. It's a clever, jackling, rock-messing, mucking kind of team. You know, like it could be kind of a street fight, kind of a squabble.

When you go into a game like that on the road on a Friday night, you know do you just kind of what is the what is the mental preparation that you guys go through for that i think personally in games like that you i i always think keep it simple you know what is the basis of rugby you know stop dominance gain dominance and in often in games like these when you overthink it that's where it gets away from you there will be a plan but as a player what is what is your core role and what is your responsibility and as i did it's to stop momentum give them into more scrum get up work you know um that's how you think of it so the one the occasion doesn't get ahead of you and two that you can just stick to the core values of the game and actually apply yourself properly and be able to stay present in big matches like this joel that that to me that is the basis of it i rock i'm i think maybe we're looking at a coach in the future here already. That was a really great summary. It's been a funny old season for the Stormers. In some ways, during the middle of it, we felt some of the darkest days, in some ways disappointing. Other ways, euphoric.

I mean, the trouncing of Leinster at home, the skunking of Glasgow. There's been a lot of good things, too. And here you are. I mean, Brock, you sit there where, in some ways, destiny in our own hands. In some ways, not.

I mean, because Glasgow is playing the same time um but it it you would if you got this opportunity before the season started you'd say thank you i take it this is where we want to be right yeah definitely in in the yeah in the last couple of seasons we've never been in this situation so um yeah we need to look at all the positives and and like you said now it's it's in our control yeah and be greedy don't say there'll be another time like this is it you know uh yeah take it all uh guys it's been absolutely wonderful we love the series because it's interesting to see not only what's in your hearts and minds but also how you relate to each other and how that um that bridge works between player and coach and absolutely chuffed that you spend some time with us and wish you the very i mean nba wishes you a lot of luck i wish you even more than that luck you guys go all the way i don't mind as long as you lose against the bulls i'm happy i'm happy that's my only condition so yeah i support you all the any south african team against any team other than my own team i will support them that's what we do over here so yeah i like the stormers i must be honest i enjoy these conversations i always i like getting to know the guys behind the guy running out into the field because it's just somebody that you know goes into a scrum or something but now I know you know how you think and I've seen you in action I was wondering about you know when you a pupil at a school and then next year you you go to study and then you become a teacher and you walk into the same place and these people are looking at you funny just the other day you were you were one of them you know I was wondering that kind of that must be quite an interesting one so yeah it's also a thing to talk about but listen guys it was awesome thank you so much and I appreciate you making time for us thank you yeah thanks Harry thanks yes good luck guys Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod. Only on Megaphone Rugby.

Thank you. Thank you.

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