The Coach Doesn't Always Know What the Stormers Will Do. That's the Point | Dawie Snyman & Ruhan Nel

Sascha, Damien, those guys, they've just got that natural instinct. For me as a coach, I never want to take that away from the players. I want to let them express themselves. They must have the feeling of freedom when they're on the pitch. I sometimes sit there and watch and I'm not really sure what we're going to do.

So how's the opposition going to know what we're going to do? It's not a case of, I'm feeling this, let's go for polls. You're taking a lot of things into consideration. We're trying to implement a game plan, maybe make the other team's legs heavy so you also have to be aware of that. You can't just go maul every single penalty, you know, because you always have a responsibility to try and protect your forwards as well.

Once you go 3-6-9, two scores ahead, the other team tries to attack a bit more, you're backing your defence, you get opportunities through that. So, it is a little bit of a balance thing, but like I said, luckily it's not one guy that sits there and he's like, okay, we're going to do this. I think a lot of our sort of errors or lapses come from actually a good place. The guys are almost trying too hard. We sort of threw everything at them where it probably wasn't needed at a certain stage of the game.

of the game and we just we just spiraled you know and then you try harder and it just becomes worse you know so you almost become your own worst nightmare so this is the lecker rugby pod only on megaphone rugby welcome back to the latest episode for the long-suffering bulls fan like i am to watch another stormers um podcast very we are we've got lined up this week yeah how's it everyone in like a rugby pod nation also our hearts going out to the people in the floods. I hope you're staying dry and warm and being safe. It is true, Enver, you must be suffering a little bit here with the sweet, natured, humble and happy, brave little stormers. The good and brave stormers, week after week, the series of a coach and a player in ways we haven't seen them before. You know, we loved having Ben Jason Dixon on with Rito Schlingwani and actually literally watching BJ learn things from Rito in real time that he didn't know he felt, like guilt in the box against Connacht of even having the guys play.

And then we had the emo episode where we had John Dobson and Dion Fari. And Dobbo and Branis, they wore their hearts on their sleeves anyway. That was full-blown emotion. How to manage emotion. It was great to listen to Rito and BJ talk about building and the actual scaffolds of rugby.

How you actually construct and scale a mall and how that looks. So this week, really chuffed that we're going to have attacking game planning, how to play above your heads, how to bring someone else down, how to play with one extra player, maybe one down. I mean, they're great. Davi Sneiman, attack coach for Stormers, and his partner in crime, Ruan Nal, who's often been a captain in this, one of the most difficult seasons for the Stormers yet. So are you excited, Envia?

Are you ready for this? Yeah, no, I'll just grin and bear it. I'm kidding. I'm actually looking forward to it, especially to Davi, because I know Darby and one of our friends don't really see eye to eye about the Stormers attack plan. So I'm going to hear all about this.

Welcome, Darby. What we need, though, from you is we need you to mount to the challenge. You know that, you know, because I was embedded, then you had to be embedded. Everything is just, you had to be bigger and better. We need the big, bad bullies, big money bulls from Loftus to have the similar type series.

So I want to get into the weeds. Don't worry, I can arrange that. I'll make a plan. All right, so let's have our intro, our big grand intro. Davi Sneeman, obviously, bears one of the most recognizable names in rugby in South Africa.

He comes from all the right roots, great college, coached at Paul Ruiz, been 15, 16 years now within province, skills, execution man, but also a balanced man who builds attack around pack and back and a multi-disciplined fella. And then alongside him, we're going to have Ruan Nel. He was the guy that has proverbial rags and riches. No craving week, no grand como. He was just playing course haste rugby in tux when someone recognized something in him.

And he's the everyman. He's the guy who learned everything the hard way. Wonderful person to be around as well to just explain rugby. And obviously played sevens where everyone's a sweeper, everyone's an edge defender, and everyone rocks. So nothing is beneath him.

I'm happy to introduce Davi and Ruan. How's it, guys? how's the guys hello ernie welcome yeah so let's jump in ruan man you're top of the log you you have been a captain for much of the season how crazy is it sometimes you know i know you're gonna sit out this one this week in ulster because of a bit of a knee um but not bad um how crazy is it sometimes to look at your career and say how did i get from here to there it's not the most typical journey yeah it's been uh yes like you say it's been a lot of ups and downs um look i i think um it it's i always just say like i don't believe i'm the most talented player i just believe i'm an average player who really works hard you know so um but yeah looking back at my career it's obviously turning 35 this year it's been an unbelievable journey so far um yeah like you say started with courses rugby i took actually ask um you know how does this work where do i I played trials to make a hostile team. And back in the day, it was still vivid as months at Tix. That's a Dachais.

Sorry for my Afrikaans. But I don't even think it exists anymore. But yeah, I had to go play trials to try and make that team. And then, like you said, I was just lucky enough to – a coach saw me, and he knew Coach Akis, who's now coaching the Bulls. Coach Akis then was coaching the Lions, and then Coach Akis was kind enough to obviously give me an opportunity to come and train with him.

So, look, I don't think I'm, you know, the only player who had to take the hard road to make a success out of his career. But one thing I can say is even if you had an easy road into the professional setup, it is a really tough environment. So it's one thing getting there, but making a career out of it, it's a completely different ballgame there. So very fortunate to be obviously where I am and to have the very long and successful career that I've been having up until this point. I suppose it's a double-edged sword.

you know if you have physical there's very few players who have the physical edge at the top level of the game you know as a boy they are as a boy they're walking around there they're just bigger stronger faster whatever you know a guy like andre hugo fente um so so but most of us angry hugo fente so um you know but there's something else though that you learn about not having to rely on that when you you cannot just run over or run around everyone then you have to figure out the game you also bring the sevens acumen where um there's just it's almost like you're always a man down i mean every line break could possibly be a try um so what did you what do you think you learned about thinking through the game i guess that's the question you were thinking through rugby and what do you think that's brought for you to the table at the top level now the urc yeah look i think it's it's no secret obviously i think one massive benefit coming from the seven system is you you you the hard work is really embedded into you and it's a cut through environment at the seven system i'm sure you guys that's been well documented at all as well um look coming to 15s and urc i'd like to tell people you know the sevens game is much quicker 100 because you're running faster but your time on the ball is much slower you know so So you've got actually a bit more time to make a decision. You can see a defender, you know, that's chasing you. The switch will be on or whatever the case might be. But coming to the 15s game, the game felt slower for me because obviously naturally you're fitter. But then your decision-making had to be so much quicker because, you know, the guys are on you much quicker.

You don't have time on ball. It's not as much as what you would have, you know, on the 7s game. So that's probably the biggest thing I had to work on coming into the 15s game. you know it's almost like being proactive in your decision making um you know knowing which line you're gonna run by the time the 10 has the ball or whatever that case might be where the sevens i felt you had a little bit more leeway with that but obviously fatigue is a massive element in the sevens game as well so um but yeah just really grateful that obviously some elements that you learned at the sevens like your hard work um you know seeing the benefit or the fruit of that hard work how it carries over into positive results is something that i believe at 35 years old you know that I can still pretty much do well. And I can always bank on that, competing with the younger guys now, as your Marcus and them coming through.

Yeah, that's a tough one. I also think 13 itself is one of the most critical positions because anything good you do can lead to a try. Anything bad you do can lead to a try the other way around. So you're on a knife edge all the time and you're proverbially, maybe more than any other position, switch from attack to defense, from defense to attack in a split second. So you'll never be able to give away.

You're never able to just concentrate on, I'm going to have the storming run from 12 into contact. You're always thinking about the next thing. Davi, Doc Craven's famously evaluation of a footballer was four points, which is the bigger the game, the better he plays. The next one is he learns very fast. Third one is he sums up the situation on the field very quickly, immediately, and finally he can play more than one position, hopefully two or three.

I'm just looking at your back line. I'm looking at the guy next to you right now, to your right. A lot of guys can play a lot of positions, and a lot of them are adaptable. There are people like this, whether it's talking about Sasha, whether it's talking about Gaza. There's just people across the back line.

Is that something you're doing by design? Is it just the guys you got handed? How does that work? I think it's a bit of both. We've got quite a fluid system where you have to adjust.

I think it's not just one position you're playing, you're trying to play the game that's in front of you. That's what we try and teach the players. You're going to find yourself on the wing sometimes, run or in the midfield, so you have to make decisions in those positions. But then we're also lucky to have players that's so talented that can actually play different positions, like Damien and Sasha. They can slot in anywhere and they'll make a difference just because they're such good rugby players.

you know so um but also the the you have to get the balance right i think that's important you can't just have a guy jumping around in positions probably one or two specialized areas and a skill set that's quite important for each position um and yeah then trying to get the combinations right you know because uh i think it's one thing about say moving gaza around to position but we always do that to make sure he plays in combination with someone next to him and that that's quite important for us. When I was at Belleville and I just sat in on one of your sessions, I was surprised at how interdisciplinary it was. Everyone was listening so that everyone understood everyone else's part. And obviously it's difficult in rugby to segment and compartmentalize attack. It's not like NFL gridiron where there's an attack in offense and then there's a defense, they're literally different teams.

Everyone's got to be on board and understand each other. it also made me think about you know on the second or third ruck let's say that Emi Khan carries Sasha's off his feet and Gaza comes to clean so what's you know what's your first receiver second receiver I mean there's a hundred rucks in a game for each team maybe is that kind of how you see it is everyone has to be ready to be in a different role yeah definitely I think that's that's we we want to play heads up rugby you know so and almost not prescribe too much obviously going to know first two phases that's sort of how the picture is going to look like but after that we want to encourage guys to make decisions and play what's in front of them so that's important and if you sit with a guy like Sasha he wants to take on the line he wants to take his opponent on and if he's on the ground then next guy has to make the decision so I think we work a lot on that and also train like that so that the guys get used to it too. Ruan, you're playing outside of that. Sasha, he looks bigger, stronger, and almost by the month, able to actually run over Adam Hastings and look at him and say, I'm going to do it to you. Is that different for you at 13?

You're looking in on, normally that's not coming from the 10 channel, getting over the gain line and setting the ruck there. Yeah, look, I think it's a great quality to have. It's just an extra toolbox, because playing 30 for so long, you tend to pick up that not a lot of tens would take the ball to the line you know it's for instance from a from a scrum you know the ball's probably going to a 12 you know they're going through 12. a lot of a lot of northern hemisphere teams go to 12 you know with 13 running short and 10 is normally the guy out the back so defensively you can quite set up and pray for that because not a lot of tens are running threats or actually carrying threats you know they'll be more of a link or a playmaker so you can make plans around that but when you have a 10 that actually goes to the line with the ball all of a sudden you have to be a little bit more softer because there's a running threat as well you know he's not a guy who's gonna just take the ball and get rid of it and try to get to space you know he'll be the guy like darby just says you know he'll be the guy that actually gets you that go forward sometimes over set phase you know like i'm just speaking in general from all tens that's a that's a running threat you know so um like darby said you know if that happens obviously sasha whoever's playing 10 for us even you you know that they've obviously got the feel to really take the ball to the line and from there we can actually just take over you know and either bring the forwards into the game or space opens up you know take the space it's going open out wide but i do think it's a different it's a different threat when your 10 actually has the confidence and the physical ability to take the ball to the line it's like a picking up from the scrum you know it's uh it just changes how you defend how you're thinking about a launch because all of a sudden you're considering more options but when you know a 10 is not really actually a running threat or carrying threat you can actually make plans to pretty much shut that launch down fast So it's a great skill for him to have. And obviously something that I'm very happy happens with me and not against me.

It's kind of cool to have that close a seat to watching a young man's career that we already know looking at him, he has skills that are very difficult to find in one player. Davi, you're the shape of attack. I look at the top nine teams in the ERC, as we call it nowadays. So Storm was a carry in the least, but the top three in the meters per carry. Kick second most but also end positions in a kick more often than most Don go to six seven phases unless they have to You guys are regaining a lot more often than most and don go to six seven phases unless they have to uh you guys are regaining a lot more kicks than everyone else and then obviously you have um you know set piece dominance so when you look at that kind of thing are you going across the hallway to norman laker and saying you know hey but i don't want to leave you with a pile here so my attack is also shaped because we are conceding the least tries you know we don't want to put ourselves in in jeopardy all the time by a lost ball going the wrong way, you know, exit by kick, end possessions by kick, by choice, not because someone did it to us.

No, definitely. I think that's one thing with Norman. I mean, we've come a long way. I've worked together for quite a few years, so we definitely understand each other, understand each other's systems. But it's like you say, I think if I'm almost going to be selfish just about attack and trying to keep the ball in hand and have sort of great phase plays or multiple phase options.

It's almost not, I think, where the game is at the moment. You have to have the balance right. So my job firstly is to make sure the Stormers wins rugby games. So if it's by defending or if it's by set piece or if it's by the way we play, that's what we need to try and do. And also we have to adjust to our squad.

We've got a certain skill set. like you said, we are good in the air. We've got the X-Factor players, so we have to try and play in a certain way that we create space for those players. And it is a little bit different than just multiple phases. One of the flashpoints, if you're just reading Stormers fans, outlets, people talking, chattering, someone's out of their arse, someone's informed, it'll come up Warek Galant.

They'll say, does he know what he's going to do? and do the players around him know what he's going to do? It strikes me that what you're saying is you create pockets of autonomy for your players and they have go, they have green light. You don't want it to be so prescribed because, you know, top of the log, you're the hunted. And if you're too predictable, we've seen what happens with teams that are predictable.

They get caught in the end, especially in knockouts. Is that kind of how you see Warwick's game is that he's always looking for something, but sometimes it's just instinctive. yeah it's definitely sort of the way um you know a guy like warwick uh sasha uh damien those guys they've just got that natural instinct you know and it's for me as a coach i never want to take that away from their players you know i want to let them express themselves they must have the feeling of freedom when they're on the pitch you know so um and yeah i mean i'm sometimes i sometimes sit there and watch and i'm not really sure what we're going to do you know so so how's the opposition can know what we're going to do you know so there's a bit of unpredictability around it um which is quite exciting i think it's it creates energy in the squad um i mean and everyone knows that the lights must be on uh when a guy like warwick has the ball you know because uh we you're not too sure where it's going to go yeah yeah you're looking for the the the try assistant has to come from something unpredictable ruan you had a had a ringside seat for sasha's 360 dummy extravaganza that he puts on sometimes the around the shoulder boulder holder where he literally goes pirouetting through the line um are you gonna try that soon is that something you're gonna bring into your repertoire well look if that happens it has to be yeah i don't yeah i don't know we have to be 50 points ahead on advantage as well so you might pull a hamstring yeah yeah look at that no it's definitely not something i will i will try i let the let the guys who's got the attacking players stick to that and i'll stick to obviously what i what i think i do best so no so as as captain and and i think even when you're not playing the captain per se on the day at 13 um you're a vocal player you're a guy who organizes and you you can you can see things so how do you see the shape on the field obviously it's much different when you're right there in the mix you know is it instinct is it pictures is it memory base um you know the idea of creating gaps and filling gaps, I suppose, in the heat of the moment. How do you see that? Yeah, I think it's a bit of both.

Obviously, I think it comes from time spent on the field as well. Like Darby said, naturally, I think when you design a play, maybe after one or two phases, you're trying to exploit the space. But most of the time, the game is played in general attack. You're trying to build up phases. It's probably just with time spent, you have a natural feel of the game, knowing if we go to that space, this space should be open.

You know, so it just so happens, you know, so space is open, guys communicate, and you're trying to get the ball there, you know, so I remember when Marnie used to play for us, Marnie was so, you know, Marnie's well known for his cross kicks. You know, that's the quickest way he could get the ball there. Sasha might not get the ball there through a cross kick, but he can use his hands or his feet to try and get guys into that space. I think, you know, on the attack side of things, it's probably a feel for the game that you need to have, just knowing how the game evolves through the play, through the phases, and you know how the game if we kick there this opens up if we carry there that side should be open up um you know so that probably just comes you can either do that do that through analysis or just let's say it's weird like i said if there's on the field as a player you feel that space opening up you feel the momentum is going you know let's stick with the momentum or um you know the reverse side should be on and then defensively same thing you know once you understand kind of the attack side of things or what sides we're trying to look for on the attack side when you're defending, same thing for us, when you're defending and then, you know, they're probably getting momentum on the outside. This is probably where we'll be the most vulnerable, so we're trying to move the ball there, you know.

So, it is a bit of experience, a little bit of analysis, but also a little bit of feel, you know, that goes with it. I don't think there's a PDF, you know, where you can say it's step one, two, three, and, you know, if you follow that, you'll be fine. It is a lot of moving parts on the field. It's not a perfect environment, you know, so, which is probably, like I said, it ties to the experience of it as well, you know. The more pictures you see, obviously, the better you know what they will try and do after that most probably um so yeah i guess um i guess that's uh that's the balance you have to get right in the team as well because the more pictures guys see obviously the more voices there can be as well um but it's it's getting everybody on the same page to you know have the same feel seeing the same picture knowing what to do when that opens up as well so yeah i think unique among all the top sports being a captain in rugby is different um as someone who was almost always captain of my teams before i was sent off from every game uh i i remember being hard on myself about that i think captaincy carries with it you know obviously the one that talks to the ref you're the one that can set the tone you can sometimes actually change on the field and you have to um the flow or what's going on and sometimes you have to you know own that and maybe it's you know maybe it comes back on you obviously post-match uh in the week that follows you do a big review of your job as a player ron now as player do you also do a review of you as captain is there a captaincy review for the week yeah so monday mornings we do have we've got leadership meetings um so we've got leadership meeting between the players alone the leadership group and then we'll probably have a meeting with the coaches as well um you know like the i wouldn't say the main leaders but let's say the captains myself branas neatas whatever that might be with the coaches as well to check and you know and i mean like there's plenty of moments where we've won games and then we felt we could have probably made a better decision or we made our own decision so we definitely review that but you know i said it a couple of weeks ago it's it's it's not a it's not a case of uh i'm feeling this let's go for polls you know it's uh you're taking a lot of things into consideration obviously the forwards are trying to we're trying to implement a game plan you know maybe mike make the other team's legs heavy so you also have to be aware of that you can't just go more every single penalty you know because you always have a responsibility to try and protect your forwards as well you've got a responsibility trying to build some scoreboard pressure because that that also has an effect on the other team psyche you know so once you go three six nine two scores ahead the other team tries to attack a bit more you're backing your defense you get opportunities through that so it is a little bit of a balance thing but like i said luckily it's not one guy that sits there and he's like okay we're gonna do this um it's uh it's funny when the ref goes you know penalty storm is tackling rolling away how much communication happens in the next 10 seconds to try and find what's gonna be best for the team you know i look to the side normally i look at dave he's got a different feel to the game he'll show me you know rather balls touch you chat to the forwards quickly and now what are we feeling such how are you feeling for the kick and then based on that we're trying to make a decision for the team what's going to be best for them yeah but it is a i actually said it post-match a couple of weeks ago there's obviously a threat in trying to win a game too quickly as well i think like rochelle this year we went like four quick tries we went over the line two of them one given but But then we're almost into an energy slump.

It's because you're having this big energy expenditure. They're not really defending because you're cutting them so quickly. And all of a sudden, they find their feet. You're a bit tired. And then you're almost fighting to get out of that energy slump there.

So there is a balance to it. But luckily, it's not a one-man show making the decision on the field there. And that's hard to know yourself that well. I mean, it's one thing to raise your hand amongst your fellow men, especially if you're guys. I don't want to be the weak guy.

But you have to. The energy slump's a real thing. um darby take me through the storm attack now have you peaked yet what does peak look like uh maybe what is the performance that's been the closest to optimal so far in the season uh yeah i don't think we've uh peaked yet um so not sure if we exactly how that looks like um i think it's probably a state of flow um where sort of all like we said there's quite a lot of moving parts. So if you've got a feeling of the team's flowing, good decision-making and playing almost the right options every single time, because I always tell them, listen, if we don't take the right option, the next option is going to be more difficult. So having three good decisions in a sequence, that usually gets us flow.

And then obviously guys will start making better decisions. So think about the game that we've probably hit our straps. I don't think we were too far off of the Glasgow game. I think it could just feel like there was good momentum in the game. You know, there was variation in our kicking game.

Obviously, some nice attacking moments. And hopefully, I mean, that's a recent game. So if we can just keep building on that, it will be great going into the last few games. Yeah, I'm not a bad opponent to have one of your best performances, I guess. The kick space is so complicated now.

with so shepherds guards escorts whatever you call them supposed to vacate the area so it's almost like exchange I'm kicking here I'm chasing but then I'm leaving space where the two people are chasing behind and I have to fill that in how much time in attack now in attack rugby are you having to spend around the kicking contest the aerials and sending you know more than one chaser yeah now i think that's massive part of the game now um i mean everyone obviously um when he got to the stormers um we were uh at the top of our game in terms of the fence you know still are uh you're doing really well in that department and i mean you can tell you it's it's quite tough to break down modern day defense through phase play you know so we we try to create different sort of scenarios you know or try and get a team into a certain rhythm we we control the tempo of it, you know, and control the space that we want to try and attack, you know. So, you know, a turnover on a kick is probably where we can get the most space for our players, and that's why we'll tend to go to those contests or those scenarios if we don't get space on face play, you know. So, yeah, and I think it's a great change in the rules that it is a one-on-one contest now. you can't get shepherds and um you know sort of block people not to get into those those contests i think it's going to open up um you know another skill set of rugby which is going to be amazing you know so players that's really good in there and you know the athleticism in that space is it's going to be great to see and then you know just the exciting moments of it because there's all floats it's it's quite fast and it is quite dynamic you know so um but it's it's a big part of our game and we do spend a lot of time on it no it's it's the quickest ball ruan of all it's A lot of casual fans, if they come to events, they've even said to me, why do we ever box kick? And I'm thinking, have you ever seen a phase play go from 22 to the dry line?

I mean, it hardly ever happens. It's difficult to do that. So somewhere along the line, there's going to be a kick or there's going to be something happen. But you want to do it on your terms. Obviously, one of the tries that you were involved in this season, I think it's one of my favorite tries, Stormers this year, you follow up a kick and then I think you keep the ball alive on the touchline.

Maybe Similani takes it and scores in. The idea, the quickness of all that, almost impossible to defend, no? Yeah, like Dobby said, once you put the ball up in the air, you're trying to almost disrupt that old defensive system. So you get in the air, all of a sudden it's a scraps battle, you pick that thing up, there's seams, there's no longer a defensive line set. So you can generate quick ball through that, you can take the space that's available.

so it just opens up so many more attacking options for you. So like Darby said, we do spend a lot of time in those transitions, you know, trying to win those scraps back, knowing what to do with that ball once we get it there. But, you know, being on the receiving end of that as well, if you lose that ball in that scrap battle, they pick it up and they start attacking to almost try and build two rocks post that to try and gain a little bit of more structure in your defensive system is one thing. But even if you gain that control back, now all of a sudden you're sitting with a center in the midfield, a lock and a prop that's stuck at the edge, because it's quick bull you know so once again like i said that just ties into more attacking opportunities there you know so that's probably where the game moved as well especially because you no longer have that escorts like you said where you can almost protect that catch up it's a 50-50 ball and um you know it's it's i won't say not often but um you see it more regularly the teams are just going for the slack back with the guys in place trying to win that scrap ball that that's being slapped back and then trying to move it away from that contact area there so um there's uh yeah there's a it's it's a risk and reward thing but obviously when you've got got a strong set piece you don't mind actually going up if you knock it great we go to a contest now we force you to front up there as well you know so um i think we probably saw it with a box as well you know like they don't mind going for the scrum or whatever the case might be so um there's a lot of positive that's obviously coming from that as well i do think obviously there a lot of kicking but i do think there a lot more attacking rugby that we actually seeing coming from that transition probably three four minutes more ball in play uh per game um with those kicks going up in the air which is obviously what the people want to see They want to see the players attacking more the ball alive a bit more on the field as well And Darby, obviously the space has stretched as well because of 50-22. And so people having to put someone back.

Are you always having to sort of, in the back of your mind, if you're kicking and chasing you're always having to configure it as well of okay so what's the kickback um and stretching that how do you how do you pass through that yeah like just thinking about earlier we spoke about just set plays where you probably have two three phases planned before uh we actually plan kick scenarios where if we kick it here they win it that's what they can do if they do that that's where we want to go you know so it's almost like a sequence of of of attack or trying to trying to trap a team into a space where we then set to to have a crack you know so it is it's like ruan said earlier as well you just understand where if a ball goes to a certain space in the back of your mind trying to teach the players that's sort of how the field's going to look like you know and and obviously analyze players look at their tendencies what they like what they want to do and try and figure out how we can get it to our advantage. Ruan, you are a physical defender, obviously. You've got seven turnovers for the IRC season so far. Stormers are way far and above everyone on dominant tackles, just percentage of dominant tackles. Defense as attack is what I'm getting to here.

The ability to change a game and then do that quickly um how are you doing that um you know without betraying state secrets um what's what's the shape here looks to me almost like you're funneling people into the kill zone uh almost on purpose you know a lot of salience on the on the edge getting people to run into where you want them to run into you know ben jason dickson or somebody yeah look it's funny you say that yeah if we can get people running to bj for 80 minutes i'll be happier so winning that contest most of the time um no that's it's you know once again like you know probably your first three phases defending is sorted out you know like based on analysis you know if they go the fireman line up i know you got two loosies out wide these are the guys folding these are the guys staying so you can really try and apply pressure for those first three phases obviously what you're not trying to do is give away momentum off that launch initially you know because then you're obviously on the back foot defense is a bit softer they've got shoulders to work with so i guess any team would try and really stop momentum from the get-go second phase trying to catch them behind that varnish line and from there it's pretty difficult to attack once you're going backwards you know your forwards are not in a position of strength to actually carry to go to get you go forward so naturally what you're trying to do is the easiest way to go forward from there is to put the ball in the air you know so um that's probably i think most teams it's at that yeah like you say it's it's not stay secret i think when teams defend they're trying to make you kick as quick as possible or they're trying to you know get a a poach or whatever the the case might be there's also like you know if you're not aggressive trying to get the ball back we see the northern hemisphere teams a team like leinster really good on attack but they you know they go through phases like they'll keep the ball they'll build phases glasgow same thing you know these guys don't exit with a kick they'll exit with a run um you know so once you start forcing teams to kick and don't necessarily kick a lot to exit becomes a very uncomfortable place for teams, you know, so how you get out of that is something they have to figure out, and you just remain in a strong position or in a position of power there, so, yeah, it is a big focus for us, obviously, I think the Stormers has been known to have a good defensive system from way back in the day, I think before all of us were here, you know, the Stormers were known to have a good defensive system, so yeah, it's quite nice knowing that you have an aggressive defensive system, trying to get that ball back as quick as possible, and then, you know, hopefully from that, either force a terrible kick or a kick out set piece in the 22 or kick to get a transition or whatever the case might be. But ideally, we don't want teams attacking for phases against us. Just unnecessary pressure. I think also you guys are sitting at the top on pilfers per phases. So you don't go long against the Stormers without having a jackal threat.

I'm just looking at the team sheet for this week, for tomorrow, at Ravenhill against Ulster, final two rounds. And it looks like there's a possibility. There's a scenario under which Paul de Villiers, Branas, Efan, BJ, Keke and Diamani are all in the picture. That's just a bunch of Lucys. Is that sort of what you're thinking here is that, you know, Ulster is a high carry team.

They like to keep possession. They'll go through the phases as well. Obviously, they're missing a few players that they probably prefer to have. But is it something you think maybe an opening here is that, you know, flood the zone with Lucys? I think it's a little bit different on a 4G or artificial pitch.

It's tough to get into breakdowns, you know, so just the speed of it and also like the cleaners coming in. So, but yeah, it's quite an exciting bench. We know we want to finish with speed because that's what the Aster brings to the table. They do play fast. So it's potentially a nice finish with all those players on the field.

Emi Sasha Gaza is fire on a 4G as well. I mean, I'm kind of looking forward to what that looks like. Is it going to be fun for you almost to have a, I don't know, a more vertical seat? Maybe just be in the coaching box and take a look and see what that looks like when you have that quick a ruck ball. Because it looks like, to me, Imad Khan gets to rucks really well and fires from there.

Yeah, look, Emi is a great talent. Obviously, he's still a very young nine, but I think he's been using his opportunities very well. Even with under 23 games, you know, Emi has got just got the natural instinct to try to attack, you know, to try to attack, have a quick ball at the rucks. So, yeah, I'd rather have someone over-eager, and you can always coach him to slow it down, you know, make him see the pictures, maybe he went to slow it down away or not. So, rather have someone that's really over-eager than someone that you're trying to make a fire under his oh, sorry for my English, you know, to try and speed up the game from there.

But definitely, look, it's not easy sitting on the side, you know, like, as a player, you always feel like you can contribute positively, you know, in some way, whether the team's doing good or not, you know you can't help but think like flip but i feel like could have made even more of a difference so um it is nice obviously to sit back and watch these guys play because you don't necessarily have the stress of performing if i can put it like that um but you do feel like flip i'm missing out on something you know so um but yeah whenever i mean like whenever whenever sasha and them are on song it's a it's a joy to watch you know so like i said really happy they're with me and not against me sorry i just want to see your thunder i just want to ask david a question could you mention 4g being so quickly i spent some time with the bulls and i explained it to me a little bit but what exactly is the problem with 4G going overseas? Not problem, you know, what are the challenges? The Bulls told me it's so much faster, I think four or five meters, I can't remember if it's per minute or second or whatever, but it's that much faster, the ball bounces differently. What are the actual challenges of playing on a 4G pitch? Because we hear about it, we don't understand it.

Yeah, I think it's just that grass sort of gives away a little bit with your studs. So anytime there's contact on grass, there's a bit of a point where it slows down where there's there's no slowing down on on a 4g it's almost the same speed all the time you know um small example uh yeah we we team that likes using our feet uh like beat beating players um you know one-on-one 4g it's almost it's difficult so you you have to be a team that runs more lines where it's more attacking structures where we want players to beat uh you know to beat players or be a player and get someone into space you know so yeah almost the contact you almost bounce off the ground so the moment you fall there's a little bit of balance it's not that you get stuck stuck on the floor you know so i think that's that's it and it just runs faster because because of the surface it's so consistent you know so i wear the grass or uh that is uh it's just different now do you change the players from you know prevent them from doing what they naturally do like sidestep like you just mentioned or the things that they're used to doing now suddenly they have to stop doing you can't even practice on the field because we didn't have those fields in south africa yeah look we we also we had a session yesterday but um yeah you can ask someone you can feel it on your body you know it's one session and lower backs are sores it's because it's just such big adjustments so we actually don't like to spend a lot of time on it when to prep for a game like this we don't we don't really change too much one or two technical things um yeah how we approach the breakdown how we approach the contact areas probably stay a little bit longer on our feet you know that type of stuff um but i mean uh and then small like i said uh if you like using your feet you have to be a little bit slower where in grass you can get you can actually run fast and then use your feet 4g you have to slow down just to get your balance right otherwise you're not going to be that effective so do i change the game plan or the mindset too much but more tweaks and in terms of how we approach areas how does how does the 4g affect rolling or stopping them all uh i think the initial stop is difficult more difficult than um yeah so if you if you get a mole that that's flying from the start to stop that thing is almost impossible uh where you can probably recover a little bit more on grass if you can get your feet in and and um you're sliding you're sliding on the fence yeah yeah like a sled or like a scrum sledge um also sorry yesterday we did a bit of a part of the fence and you know we we you know we're quite aggressive defensively and you know to change direction and to cover another attack is more difficult than a 4g just because um where grass you can sort of check and then then swim off or go to the next defender we could actually see we made one or two mistakes like that yesterday just just because of the surface okay okay they get frozen almost yeah so um you can always use that to your benefit obviously even if you're not familiar with yourself, you know, you could use that. And we have the players to do that. Obviously, there's a lot of speed. So take us through sort of the setup for this game.

I think you have Similani on the wing. He's been floating around the back three, I guess, all through all season. Do you see him as both? He's just a back three player or do you see him more as a wing or a fullback? Actually, he's center maybe.

but he's also done a great job at 13. I think that's probably his position. But one thing about him, he's really good in the air. So that's why we used him for his game against Lens. He played 15 and Ospreys, I think.

So did a great job for us there. wing as well now. So we had one or two moves around in that position. But I think it's just what he's bringing in that position now at the moment for us is the defensive element of it. Because the teams we're playing now, you have to be really sharp in those channels, make really good decisions.

And because he's been playing 13, like you said earlier, I mean, 13's got so much experience of making good decisions defensively or you have to. That's why we're using him on the wing just to make sure that that area or that space is well covered for us. Our teams are getting really big, Ruan. You're looking at guys on the test level, you know, Gary Ringrose. You're looking at guys like Rico Arnie.

You're looking at Rangie, Kanan Moody for the box. Guys who not only can man their position on the ground, but they can also go aerial. Is that the way you think the game's going? It's going to be more aerial, and then you're going to have maybe have to think about size out there on the edge? yeah definitely um yeah like you said you know i think uh i think damien actually mentioned it a couple of weeks ago in the media as well when he was taking a bit of of questions why he was playing on the wing and like you have to be versatile if it's not in position it's in skill sets um you know so i mean when when when guys kick open side contestables you know your 13 and wing is probably going to be involved in that area even the aerial contest or being loaded for that scrap of getting into that breakdown pretty quickly as well you know so if you're going to have you know I'm not going to have but I mean if you got size on your side it's much easier to secure that breakdown if you can handle that contestable you know if you got size it's much easier to get in the air and win that scrap battle you know so obviously sides I know like the old cliche like you know size doesn't really matter in rugby you know but I think like certain positions obviously when you have size it's just beneficial for you know so yeah I definitely think the game is obviously moving towards that space we just touched on it about you know the attacking opportunities that comes from it but It's scary.

Even the younger boys we see coming in, I was like, what the hell did I eat when I was at school? Because these young boys are just getting bigger and bigger, quicker and quicker. Definitely, obviously. It's obviously a very exciting time for rugby to be. I feel like our outside backs are way more involved now.

I like it. Dave, the size thing, it's getting bigger, obviously quicker. that means g-forces contacts are going to be more um they're harder at the same time rugby is trying to protect but also speed up the game it's to me it's a lot of things that don't go together so you know um the decisions around cards sometimes are mystifying but whether you're mystified by it doesn't really matter it's going to happen so do you do a lot of game playing and scenario painting around being one down, two down, what do we play, how do we play, being one up, which is also sometimes you're watching a team, I think Leinster was two down and they, you know, they played it well. They were able to survive it because the team that was playing them didn't do the right thing. Do you kind of go through those scenarios?

Yeah, we definitely do. We, we, like this before captains today, we had a driver's meeting. So that will be the guys that's on the field and we'll go through scenarios. Because sometimes you think about a card, but it's also positional. You've got to scrum off off.

It ended up against Glasgow. You're receiving a restart. How are you going to exit from those positions? You almost have to have a really good idea of the position that's off. What's going to be the plan What the line plan Who going to scrum I mean Ruane been scrumming a few times now for the Stormers here because we don want to debower our scrum But then, okay, now we have to defend with one less back or whatever.

So I think there's quite a lot of thought going into it and also the other side of it. So we're playing against a team. There's a back off. It's an outside back. So where's the opportunities around that?

And, okay, I mean, you can plan for a lot, but also you have to plan on the day as well. So just because you need to make a sub if it's a front row or we're going to take a back off or we're going to take a forward off, you know. But it's depending on obviously your position and how that set piece or that area of the game is going. And Ruan, you're in the actual conversation that leads sometimes to the car decision. It must be, I mean, you're a polite captain.

You don't, you're not snarky. I saw Caelan Doris over the weekend, and ask the ref, what the fuck was I supposed to do? Something like that. And so making the ref tell him what he could have done in the breakdown that would have been legal. You don't pose those hypotheticals.

You pretty much stay on top. But are you trying... Is there a way we're trying to slow it down maybe sometimes? Take one more look. Just one more look.

How do you coax the referee to take one more look and maybe see if Marcel did ground it in between Oliven's legs? You have to bring it here. Sorry. I was going there I think that's probably one of the few times out of desperation I was probably just begging for them to check but at the end of the day I don't think a ref is going to stand there and if they have the angle or if they can see a grounding clearly that they're going to be like it's not grounded so I do feel like there is a balance between nagging a ref and just being like guys like that looking at it when we come with a head shot for instance I'll tell the ref just check the headshot there for us and then i'll say cool you'll check it i mean like what more can i do now i'm not gonna you know rave he just said that they'll check it you know so um look but where are you getting that from ruan where like are you getting it sometimes from touchline yeah so we'll get it from the touch probably like goblin them having a you know like a tv angle they're saying like listen maybe just check that that looked a little bit um like it might have been higher and then i just flag it to the ref you know and he like you'll stand there and he'll say cool we'll check it for you i mean like that's job done you know i'm not gonna i'm not going to throw a foot in front of him you know or go stand on the ground you know sit on the ground my arms folded and wait until he gives me a decision like you said they'll check it then you know much more i can't do this so it's also a fine balance between you know having it direct nagging a ref because they're also human you know like they also got a job to do so i mean job done my job as a captain is just to go there tell him listen we're seeing this maybe just check this this is what we're feeling this is what we're seeing that's job done you know so and then it's over to him and then obviously if it if it continues you just continue you to flag it but um look different captains probably have different approaches to it i just don't feel the need and they're like nagging nagging nagging nagging um because i mean like if he says he's gonna check it and they do check it and nothing comes from it you know like boys let's just go on with it so um it's it's like it's it's probably like like the headshot thing as well you know like a player says he's been headshot but he's still running around going crazy making tackle poachers but he's saying check the headshot after they've scored a try so i'm like guys can you see how it looks like we just defended another six phases now you want me to go back and say i'll check the headshot there like if it was really that bad sit down on the ground you know they'll probably check but yeah you're playing a long game there too of credibility the boy cried wolf um and all the great refs ref whispering captains that i can think of they were very credible they kept their credibility so if you always hair on fire then the referee is going to start to know that and i know for sure because i've talked to some refs that they already have the book on some players like now that guy always says that you know versus wow you know Ruan says that maybe I should take a look um I've got a plan here I I get so upset when the ref's the wrong spot on the pick and go to the line and they're completely shielded because they're not in the wrong the right spot and so the held up is easy um what you should do is take actually have uh Andre who go do this have him pick up the referee and put him in the right spot because he doesn't care if the referee likes him anyway the problem is he won't be able to catch a refit oh that's a sledge um so ruan tell me about the the idea of being the longevity how do you stay in shape uh what's the diet and does it get differently with every two or three years as you get older look i i do definitely think the older you get uh you know the more you have to look after yourself so i don't think that's a secret you know like it's uh it's longevity is obviously the aim you know so um yeah obviously that's that's likely likely i think when you love training it's just a natural thing that happens for you you know so if i can think like a guy like jesse like jesse is also a 30 30 something now and he's in incredible shape you know it's no secret when you speak to the guys in the springbok camp how good he looks after himself you know that obviously creates longevity you can see the way he still plays and so obviously a lot of us it's getting older you have to spend time in nutrition your recovery um the way you train also training smart i have to say that as well you know people think the way you train it's like you know balls to the wall flat metal you know just also about knowing when to turn it on when to turn it off so um just you know father time is a is a yeah so um it's um it's uh it's about knowing when to when to go and when to not you know but luckily like i said if it's if it's if it's been a part of and you just enjoy what you're doing and it's been a part of your life for so long um you know you'll do whatever you need to do to try and stay in it for as long you know hopefully you can continue to be um effective as well i think i don't want to be taking up space and being not effective because i also don't think that's fair to other boys that's pushing for position you know we welcome competition but um you know just hanging around because for the sake of hanging around is also not healthy for a squad so i'm looking after myself and obviously still knowing if i wear the 13 jersey that i'm wearing the 13 jersey because i'm the number one 13 you not because of it's a sympathy card or something that I've done in the past. So, Davi, take us out on this note.

Obviously, there's a big game, but also there's two big games coming up, and then there's the playoffs. What are you looking for from the team, from an attack standpoint? What are the key indicators for you that it's going to be a good day, and what are the things that you're trying to stand out? Yeah, I think probably consistency in performance. like I said that Glasgow game sort of felt it's where we want to be as a squad and a team that's just the way we played just how we connected on the field options we took a certain flow that we had in the game so probably try to get to that space where we have that flow for the next few games going to the home stretch and the business end of the comp I think that's probably it and I think we've got a good idea of how to get it right.

So we've sort of pushed the right buttons. I feel the training's going in the right direction. The understanding of what and how we need to do it is there. So yeah, it's actually quite exciting. Players tell me all the time, sometimes they lose concentration.

We see it. If we play it, we've done it ourselves. It seems almost inexplicable. How could you lose concentration during the match you've been preparing for, thinking about, dreaming about, but here you are looking at some guy in this 10th row, what he's drinking. I don't know.

Just something will happen and you lose concentration. And this is a coach killer because obviously it can undo a lot. I saw that on the weekend. I saw it. Actually, Lenster lost concentration and let Tulan back in.

What's that? How do you coach around that? What are the mental tricks you can do where people stay in the moment for every moment? Please, if you find out, let me know. It's weird.

You can lose momentum in a game so quickly. So you're just on top of a team and you feel everything's going right. And just at the wrong time, you concede a penalty or a card or something. And I think a lot of our errors or lapses come from actually a good place. So the guy's almost trying too hard.

It's like, just BJ, you don't have to tackle six guys and then do this and this. Against Connacht, it seemed like that. it seemed like um we had this thing now we're trying to i don't know play too quickly sometimes yeah we actually we sort of threw everything at them we probably wasn't needed at a certain stage of the game and we just we just spiraled you know and and then actually then you try harder and it just becomes worse you know so you almost become your own worst nightmare so um but i think so obviously one or two things the last two weeks is that um trying to keep it really simple i think the simplicity of um of how we want to play and what we need to do in each scenario is quite important and also the players understanding their roles because the moment you sort of jump out of your role and trying to do someone else's job that's usually when we sort of lose this momentum we make those mistakes you know so um but it feels like the boys are dialed in and and everyone's ready to to finish strong the season man i'm excited i'm ready envy unless you have something uh to negate this i i declare this uh this part he wanted to ask me about the attack i know now we've got to we've got to call him only making six bosses that's still the mystery we have a colleague that's fixated on the number of passes what i said to you is why would you want to pass if you can do this and i sent him two pictures of mooring adam hastings now i wanted to ask you this i don't know i made a bit of a prediction you're either going to play the bulls in the semi or the final depending on how the you know top eight works out and i'm a bull supporter i'm i'm just being you know a bit facetious here but you know is that still the biggest game of the year for you that you're looking forward to you know to see as you're going forward i mean that any bulls game bulls game is special it's i mean you can ask you on that's it's sort of the one you you want to play you want to be involved in it's one you want to measure yourself in um i mean there's a massive amount of respect for us uh for the bulls and and and the rivalry um and yeah i mean whenever we play them if it's a league game or if it's a playoff game that will be a massive game and um yeah always a great game i think it's the battles and just how the guys get stuck in you know after bulls game we always we're probably only can start training on wednesday again because the boys are they put everything on the line you know and that's almost a real south african derby we we it's test level yeah i wanted to ask you this because when When we asked Dobbo last year, just after Johan was appointed, we would rather play against the Jake White Bulls than Johan Akerman. So for us, all your coaches the same question. And we'll ask you now, what do you think about the direction the Bulls are going into?

Is it ominous for you? Or are you happy that they're going that way because then you can beat them easier? No, I think Johan is a special coach. And it's just going to take a bit of time. So he's going to build something special at Loftus.

There's always great players. so he's got a great squad so now they're going to come strong uh and even now that i think they're a little bit not or how can i say tonight people aren't talking enough about them uh they're actually in a good position you know they'll definitely fill their boots the next few games and then they're in the playoffs and i mean the bulls team in the playoffs is a dangerous team always so uh you know he's going to get stuff right and uh the bulls will be really a big force for the next few years you know yeah thank you they're the favorites and beer we're just a little underdog happy to be on that for the other one harry come on i'm so tired of you you take it out yeah you can sleep well the bulls will be it will be there i sleep very well thank you i spent time in the booths like i did with you guys i spent the whole week there and i was blown away i'll be honest we spoke to new and everybody else you know it's interesting to me how you approach the attack compared to uh new approaches the attack i want to ask you one more question i forgot about i asked new this question did he get rugby in his in his porridge every morning you know and same with you you coming from a rugby family was it the same for you did you grow up with rugby like that probably a little bit different i think uh sort of my dad took more of a background uh was more in the background he didn't really push me in that direction i think he didn't want to pressure on me to become a other player or a coach you know but where my uncle was a little bit different the moment he saw i was interested in coaching he sort of got on top of me you know so and he he he's a man that he's quite a hard man you know he was a hard man so he would he would phone me on a sunday and obviously if we won i would answer and if we didn't i would i'll leave it till monday you know but yeah it was uh i was really lucky to to obviously my uncle and my dad just to have that sort of experience and and and rugby knowledge uh and always uh supporting them them supporting me that was that was also always nice yeah okay i'm done sorry uh for interrupting right towards the end i have to put some bulls questions in there so that was beautiful i want to over under on sasha's six to seven passes i want to know what what the correct number is so i can tell you all right cheers guys thanks man this is the lecker rugby pod only on megaphone rugby Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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