Stedman Gans Never Forgot His Dad's Long Walk | Long Way to the Game

I felt a bit of pleasure going on to the field. I think coach put me on at 76 and I just had to remind myself we had this call in my seventh days, just next job, just think about the next thing we have to do and that's what I had to do. Whenever I feel like Ace Ledman you're doing this and you've accomplished this, then I remember it's not about what you have done, that's not why you are where you are and it's a part of it but it's because somebody else walked 15 20 kilometers when you were a little baby so the rule i've got is i don't read the positive comments because if i believe those i have to believe the negative ones as well but it can have a real negative effect on you definitely this is the long way to the game only on megaphone rugby welcome back to the Long Way to the Game podcast, our Fan Century podcast with Paul Avernant and today we have a special guest, one that we were supposed to talk to before this weekend and I'm so happy that we we did it because Sedman, welcome to Long Way to the Game and what a game you had against Glasgow Warriors man, I loved it. Thank you Paul, thank you MBR, thank you for having me guys and yeah, it was a lucky one. I'm glad to have had an impact in that semi-final, you know, what a blessing.

And we maybe start with that, Stedman. I have a lot of questions about the rest of your time with the Bulls. And for people that stay till the end, I think you'll learn something about Stedman that I just learned so many things in researching for this interview that you do outside of rugby that I'm quite interested to ask you about. But I want to start with that game. And the time is 79 minutes and 12 seconds in the game.

and Glasgow are attacking left and right out wide, and all of us are just dying watching. And then you make that dominant tackle, and not just that, you bounce up and you jackal the ball that basically closes the game out. Can you just talk about what's going through your head and how that felt like? Yeah. I felt a bit of pleasure going onto the field.

I think coach put me on at 76. And I just had to remind myself, we had this call in my seventh day, just next job, just think about the next thing you have to do. And that's what I had to do, because I went on to defend a scrum, and we knew going into this game that Glasgow, the attack from said piece is very good. And so I really had to focus just to get that job done first. and then that was my mindset for the rest of five or six minutes that was left of that game.

What is the next thing you have to do? How do you contribute? How do you help? And yeah, that just happened just by itself because I was just focused on, listen, yeah, this is the situation. This is what I have to do now.

And I couldn't believe it myself at the end. Well, you went on for only three minutes or four minutes. You came on earlier because Koenig went off for an HIA. And then you also made a huge impression there. If you have to go on unexpectedly like that, how does that work?

Does it catch you off guard? Are you guys prepared for it? You said you had to go on the 76-minute defender scrum, so you knew what was waiting for you. But suddenly to go on and then come back off again, how does that work? Yeah, that was a bit of a surprise.

And I just had to say mindset. Just think about the job that you have to do face-by-face, play-by-play. But yeah, that one, it caught me off guard. But sometimes it's better that way. Then you don't overthink it.

You just go out and play your game. Stedman, I wanted to ask you about that. Did you feel why you're in the game? I don't know if you know, but the Scottish commentators were saying that once you came on for Canaan in the HIA assessment, it felt like the Bulls kind of stabilized a little bit, that it calmed down. And they talked about you quite a lot.

Do you as a player feel that when you're on the field or you're just oblivious to that, that you're having an impact in some way when you came on? I definitely felt the momentum sift. At the time I didn't necessarily contribute to myself, but I definitely felt like we were bit on the back foot towards the end of that first half and we managed to swing it back into into some positive momentum starting the second half. But I wasn't thinking, well done Stedman, you did this. That wasn't my train of thought at the time.

And can I ask you, sitting on the side of the field, what was the mood like when 24 minutes into the game, you're 21-3 down? Do heads drop or is everyone just, we've got this, we've got to focus? And that's that, I think that's the thing that makes this team special. We were all just, it was giving us energy to say, listen, yeah, now we we in this battle, we've, we in this tough situation, we're gonna fight back, let's fight back. And the bench was talking to each other behind the balls.

Every time the team was close to the line, we would go behind the balls to cheer them on to like what we see from the side, like tell them what we what we're seeing and how we can help from the side. And every time we would make idle behind the poles and would analyze what we're seeing, like when we get on, this is my job, this is what I do, this is the messages I need to take on, that sort of thing. So yeah, it was, it was, it was, we were energized behind the field, off the field. And what was at halftime in the locker room, what was the discussion at halftime? around belief.

We have to believe. That was Coach Akkar's main message. I believe and I need you guys to believe and everybody was like, we believe we're going to turn this around. We could spend this whole podcast just talking about that game and everyone knows I'm a Stormers fan, but on Saturday I was a Bulls fan 150%. I want to ask you in that final minute, it.

The dominant tackle was awesome, but then you have to make that decision. It's a one-point game to jackal the ball. Does that go through your head? If I get this wrong, I could give up a penalty like in very kickable or it's just instinct at that point when you go for the ball? I think it's instinct at that point and you go through those habits in your training and it's been years where I've trained that particular tackle and get up and steal.

So if it's not part of something you do regularly, it is a dangerous thing to do at that time of the game. But because I've worked on it for so long, it came a bit more naturally. I want to go back to that half-time talk because everybody was saying there's a different Bulls team came into the field. I spoke to you recently as well and that's not necessarily the case i mean you only have a very short turnaround time and you said coach you on says he believes and everything but how do you believe you know it's one thing to say something and to hear your coach saying it but what you know what happened in that what does that what happens at halftime i'm interested in that whole thing and secondly what makes you believe what the coach actually says to you well i think what coach tells you that in that particular moment um you believe it because of what happened earlier in the season. There was a time we lost seven games in a row, and the messages he gave us during that difficult period, it came through.

And he said to us, it's going to turn, we're getting there, we're going to get to a point where we play the rugby, we want to play. And that all came, and that all happened. So I think that's one thing that creates that belief and also the group um fortunately for us we are we're an experienced group we have a lot of guys that's been in those types of situations before and and the other thing that also happens is just that bit of a break from the game that also makes a big difference because when the momentum is so against you um and you feel under pressure you feel under pumped for long periods of time when you get that because when we get into the the halftime we've got a a minute and a half ourselves. Just that minute and a half, just with yourself, just to get your breath, relax your mind. That makes a massive difference.

And I think that's what we saw when the guys came back onto the field. The whole group was just calmer. And we can just play the rugby. We know we can play. Maybe that's enough for now about that game, although we could talk about it more.

I do want to ask you, so in two weeks from now, one and a half weeks. I will be supporting the Bulls as if I'm a Bulls fan. Envia is very happy about that. But it would help me if you win because we want the Bulls to win, but also to help me get over the Stormers' loss against Leinster. And so if you could just tackle a little harder and hit them harder, that would be great.

I will do my very best for all the South African teams. Stephen, one thing that we need to set the record straight here, last year's final against this very same Lens, they had the very same final for the UFC. I'm not sure last year, I think it was at Vimo this year, at the Grove Park, which is an even bigger stadium. You need to set the record straight, man. Are you guys up for it?

What's the feeling in the team? You had to come back home, now you have to fly back there again. Number one, why did you come back home? Why don't you stay? The Lions stayed there.

It didn't help them much, it doesn't look like, but still. And then, are you guys mentally up for it? Do you think you can take the mighty Lens at home? I think so. I definitely do.

I think the team's definitely going to be up for it. It's final so you don't necessarily know what the result is going to be but i think we'll give ourselves a shot i think we came home because it's better to be with with friends and family we're not going to do a hell of a lot of training in this in the last two weeks before the final so to stay there it just didn't make sense for us we would rather be we've got a like a family day on Sunday. And I feel like the team feels this is a time just be close to friends and family. Just reconnect because that's the sort of thing that carries you when it gets tough in a final. Now, I alluded in the beginning of this call that there is a lot of interesting things that I did not know.

And Envia, as a Bull supporter his whole life, didn't know about you off the rugby field. And I want to leave time for them, but I want to just focus on your rugby career for the next segment and ask you about that. You were born, if I understand, or you lived in the Western Cape. That's where you grew up with your family. How did you end up playing at Wirskogl Voterkluf, which is my alma mater, and then playing for the senior Bulls team?

Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, so we actually moved to Pretoria because my dad came and worked in Pretoria. and I like to tell the story that my dad used to work for a mining company just outside of Fredenburg it was called the Makwa Sands at the time and he worked incredibly hard to work his way up from in that organization to be called up to headquarters in Pretoria and that's how I end up at Oersko Wartekloff at the age of 14. And that's a big driver in my life I've got I've got this picture behind my desk. This is, so what happened is the day before my dad had his first interview at that company in the Marcos Sands, his lift dropped him and he decided that morning he's going to wake up extremely early and walk to that first interview and that's how he actually got the job because he he was so sweaty and they couldn't believe if he walked all the way because it's actually very far.

And they saw those characteristics in him and I had him before that. And it's that start that I always like to tell people that that's why I'm in the position I am today. When he got his call up to Pretoria, I got my call up in life as well. And so I keep this, I keep the road he walked that morning as a reminder. I feel like a statement you're doing this and you've accomplished this then I remember it's not it's not about what what you have done that's not why you are where you are and it's a part of it but it's because somebody else walked 15 20 kilometers when you were a little baby and I assume your dad knows that you tell that story and that you remind him that that shaped you is Is that correct Yes yes he does And and does your dad get to see a lot of your games or be it many of your games now Yeah, he's almost at every game at Loftus.

So yeah, he loves in Joburg. So he comes through for almost every game. What was your dad's reaction to the weekend and your play? He was just so proud. He couldn't stop talking about what the commentator said.

And he sent me the video straight after the game, gave me a call. Yeah, he was very proud. And will you laugh again now? Because now I'm just covered in goosebumps again. I know.

We always get goosebumps in these interviews because we always hear these interesting things. I love it. That's such a good thing. So I just want to say something to my friend Ari Hogard. I confirmed yesterday the pronunciation of your surname is Gans, not Gans.

Thank you, Ari. I heard it from the horse's mouth, quite literally. And so Stedman, so you end up at Wurzko Waterglyph. And if I understand correctly, you went directly from Waterglyph. You got a contract in the kind of senior bull setup.

Is that correct? Can you talk a little bit about how that happened? So I actually went to the under-19 setup first. So I was in a junior contract for three years, under-19 and under-21 for two years. But towards the end of my under-19 year, I wanted to go to do a pre-season at the 7s because at the time I was very small and I wanted to do some contact work, wanted to get a little bit more fitter, work on my skill, that sort of thing.

Me and my agent at the time, we saw a lot of benefit in me having a pre-season with the 7s and that was the end of 2016 and early 2017 I made my debut for the sevens and that became four years in the seven system. So it was meant to be a little bit more than a December, became something completely different. And so you ended up with the Blitzbox, is that correct? Correct, correct. So I spent four years there.

I came back for Cardi Cup every year. I was there for 2017. And then at some point, I think in 2020, you win SA Rugby Sevens Player of the Year. How did that feel? Yeah, I couldn't believe it, to be honest.

I mean, my very first post on social media was a post of the Blitzbox when I was still in school. and the caption read, my dream. And now I was part of that group and I played with a lot of those guys in those photos and I'm a seventh player of South Africa. So, yeah, unbelievable. And why did you decide to not stay with sevens?

Why did you turn to 15th? Yeah, that was more a longevity decision for me. I knew that if I wanted to have a bit of a longer career, I'm going to have to switch to 15 men so that I can go to different clubs. There's just more opportunities in the 15-man game than sevens at the moment. Why would it be a longer career in the 15s?

Because 15s is physically far more demanding. You play many more games. It's tougher on your body. I suppose the body is better than everything else. Why would it?

Just explain that side to me a bit better. At the time my thinking was, as you get older, the first thing that's going to go is your speed. And you can survive if your speed starts to decline in 15 men. But if it starts to decline in 17, you're in real trouble. And also the opportunities you have.

We've got four major clubs in South Africa. And then obviously you've got Europe, Japan. And a lot of markets opening up for 15 men. Where in 17, you don't have that opportunity. So taking all of that into account at that time, that's why I decided to switch codes.

And how did you go back then to the Bulls? Was that just kind of a natural thing or you talked to them or they were recruiting you from Sevens? How did you end up back at the Bulls? So after I made my debut early 2017, my contract actually shifted to a dual contract with the Bulls and ST Rugby. So I had a six-month, six-month deal.

And towards the end of my last year on that deal contract, we actually negotiated with the bulls to come back full-time. And that's when I went over to just a full-time 15-man deal with the bulls. How difficult is that transition between 15 and sevens and sevens and 15s? For me, it wasn't that difficult because I came back every year. I know for some guys that has left for three, four years and then tried to come back into 15-man rugby, they found it difficult.

But I was back and forth on a six-month basis. So it wasn't that big of a jump at the time. And also I played junior rugby and that helped a lot because if I had to jump into a senior setup, it might have been a different story. Is there one of those two formats that you prefer if longevity wasn't the issue? would you play sevens forever or you prefer the 15s game?

No, I wouldn't necessarily say that I have a preference. I love both of them. When you came back, you came back under Jake White. Was he part of the reason you came back? You know, it's Springbok World Cup winning coach and everything else.

We're not going to talk about everything else about Jake, but I'm just, when you started there, was that part of the attraction to come back to the Bulls and he's there? I think I actually came back under coach John Mitchell, if I remember correctly. I made my senior carry-cup debut under coach John Mitchell. So, Coach Jake, no, I just went back for the Olympics when Coach Jake was with us. And that's why it might feel like I came back under Coach Jake, but I was at the Bulls already.

I would say in looking at your career, there were times most likely where you got in the Bulls set up less playing time than you hoped for. And then there are times where you're kind of like, if I look at this last weekend's game, you're an integral part of the team. How difficult was that for you as a player that you're not always getting on the field as much as you want to or starting and you're coming off the bench? Is that difficult to kind of deal with that and handle the pressure of that? Very difficult.

As a rugby player, you want to be on the field as much as possible. but it's in those times that you kind of learn what it is to be a man you have to learn how to deal with those pressures how to how to deal with disappointment and that sort of stuff and so i feel blessed that i had those times and i and i know they're going to come again in the future when me and my wife was walking back from the coffee shop we actually spoke about that and It's during those times where we've learned our most valuable lessons. So in hindsight, I think it was very good for me. But in those moments, of course, it was tough. It was tough.

You want to play. And you always feel like you're the best. Yeah, I'm wondering about that. Because, you know, nowadays it's not a 15-man team with a reserve bench. It's a 23-man squad.

There's a very specific reason why you start on the bench, for example. Like you saw this weekend, the impact that you had. You know, we call it impact plays. But there's a reason. So, are you comfortable with that role?

Like Paul just asked, you know, the fact that you can make such a big impact when you come on? I am comfortable with that role and I take pride in that role because there's also a lot of trust that comes with it. I mean, for a coach to put you on that late in a game and you're one-pointed, he's trusting you in a way. I wouldn't necessarily say that I prefer it over anything or over starting. But I know for this season, that's going to be my role.

Maybe next season, I'm going to have a different role. And I'm going to have to learn to adapt to that role when it changes. I asked you the other day outside the gym there, do you prefer playing 12 or 13? And you said to me, you don't care, you just want to be on the field. But I mean, there must be a bit of a preference there.

12 is much more physical position, 13 is much more defensive orientated. They're not the same thing. So what do you actually prefer? And I'm not going to tell you on this so you can – it's our secret. Honestly, I really enjoy both.

I love the technicality around defense that comes with 13, how you have to analyze a team and understand momentum of a game and that sort of thing. And that really – it becomes a more intellectual game and that's something I enjoy. Did that, because now you sometimes even play wing, was that kind of just sort of by happenstance that it developed those difference or is it something that you consciously set out to develop that versatility across the back line? I think that just happened by happenstance. I didn't necessarily go out trying to develop, especially when it comes to wing.

Maybe on 12, I always wanted to be a little bit closer to the ball, make a few decisions, help my flyer out with some technical and tactical decisions on the field. And at 12, I had an opportunity to do that, but more than the 13. But when it comes to winning, I just think that happens. And so just a few games ago, you reached your 100 cap for the Bulls. Could you talk about that a little bit?

Did you, when you started, ever imagine in your wildest dream you'd play 100 games and then talk a little bit about how that felt on the day. Yeah, no, definitely not. When I started, I didn't even think of anything like that. 50 caps was a hell of a lot. And yeah, to get 100, I was just, I felt so blessed to have the opportunity to play for so long.

Honestly, I mean, I've seen in my 10 years at the Bulls. I've seen guys come and they have to leave with injuries at unfortunate times. Just not being selected for long periods of times and that can have a real devastating effect on your career. So for me to be in a position where I can be in and around the team for so long to reach the 100 caps, I just felt like very blessed. Something that stood out for me in this research was the fact that you were never a stormer except when you were a little boy but you've always been playing for the bulls you are a bull through and through and i love that i must i just want to say that there's something that's important close to my heart yeah and uh i like that that fact that you're so steeped in the bulls culture and history and everything else and talking about culture and history just briefly tell talk to us about the difference you know you coach you are akerman has made not so much in terms of you know the way the bulls play you said the other day just earlier i mean you said the seven games you lost he said keep keep just be patient guys we're getting to the place to play the rugby that we want to play and that caught my caught my attention what does that mean are you guys now playing different to what you did before what has changed under under cut shewan akraman in terms of the way you're playing in terms of the way we're playing i think one thing that um that that i find different is um We have a plan, we have a way we wanted to play, and when we didn't get the result, we stuck to it.

We sometimes in the past, we would make adjustments to get the result, but then you don't, towards the end of the season, you don't have an identity. And I think what we want to do now is we want to be a fearless team, we want to be the sort of team that when there's an opportunity to run the ball, we want to take it. And we're not getting it right 100% of the time, but we are given the opportunity and the confidence to do it every week, and I can tell you that. But I think the most important change is the culture and the culture of gratitude, accountability, and people first type of culture that Coach Johan and his team is driving at the Bulls. that's been a massive difference and it's helped me a lot even in the first six months.

Can I ask you, I had in my notes here, in my research, the term gratitude came up a lot related to you and you just brought it up again. Could you talk about that a little bit? Why is that so important for you? The story about your father that you shared with us in the beginning Why is gratitude such a big deal for you I think for me it brings my life and life in perspective because it takes me outside of my own head and everything I feel that I done and it puts my focus on to everything around me that worked out to the best, that worked out so that I can be in a certain position and that's what gratitude is um it uh yeah it's a driver that um when when you feel down there's always something to be grateful for so it keeps me positive in difficult times and i feel like in my life um there's so many situations or i put myself under so much pressure that if i'm going to allow myself to focus on the negative i can go into a spiral but if i if I'm grateful for what I have and it keeps me going. You know, Stedman, we speak to a lot of rugby players and coaches and everything else and we've said this more than once.

What's so interesting and so noticeable is how intelligent these guys are. I'm not saying that they're clever or not clever. The way they think about it. You talk about, you thought about gratitude. I mean, I've never thought about gratitude in my life now that I think of it.

And I suddenly think maybe I should have been thinking about gratitude. You know, what makes you think that? or be like that? What makes you such a, I don't want to sound a bit right here, but a deep person, an introspective person? Where does that come from?

I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. The word gratitude is something that Coach Acker introduced. I used to talk about being humble, and what I meant by that is, be humble in what you think you've done to be where you are. But Coach Acker talks about it a lot, and he uses the word gratitude so he gave me the language to explain what i'm what i'm feeling a bit better but but the way i think about it i don't know where it comes from maybe it's the way i was raised um i was after after my it wasn't my hundredth game the game was right after it i was sitting in a water hut where all the players gather after a game and i was sitting next to my dad and he said um gancy did you ever think we were going to sit here and because we were sitting team and he was looking at all the players and the coaches and the families around him.

And remember when he grew up in Saldana, it was, he could have never imagined that. And I think maybe because he sees life that way, I have the opportunity to do the same. And I use that to transition into your kind of life off the field. So recently when Envia kind of mentioned that we were going to talk to you, it came in the context of like a piece of information that came completely out of left field for me because it was related to a business discussion at the Bulls. There was kind of a discussion going on amongst ourselves.

And then Envy said, yes, I'm meeting with Stedman. And I said, but why in this context? And then it came out that you actually also work in the commercial department of the Bulls business organization, which blew me away. which blew me away could you talk a little bit about that is how did that come about and what do you do yes um so i think it's two years ago i had a knee um surgery and i was going to be out for a really long time and i was like i can't sit at home i'll go crazy and so i went to i went to again the team and i asked can i do an internship um and just follow you guys around i just i just I would love to see how the business of rugby works. And I did that for seven months, and it was such an amazing experience for me, and I enjoyed it so much that after my internship was done, I very boldly asked Edgar, listen, I want to work here.

Can we look at something? And he's like, perfect. He actually wants somebody. And in the beginning, it was just to build a platform where if the Sox played against the Bulls at Loftus last year, when the Sox came back this year, he wants a platform where he can go to everybody that was at the game last year and talk to them. That's where the whole idea started.

So that was my research project. So I'm a business associate within the commercial department of the bulls. And I am now tasked to build that sort of platform where we can gather all our data points so that top management can make better decisions. And I've been busy with it for a year and a half now. And so is the driver for that is both to know your fan base or your customer base better, but also to look at sort of the end-to-end customer experience that they have?

100%. So it's about customer engagement and customer satisfaction, but also to give back some more value to our sponsors because they would also like to know who they're advertising to, who are they talking to when they talk to people through the booths. So it's also to drive the value up that we are giving back to our sponsors. That's kind of a weird question. Does that then mean that you have two contracts with the Bulls?

You get paid as a player and get paid in the business context or it's just under one umbrella as a player? No, it's two different contracts. Okay. Different contracts. Yeah, but I still don't have leave days.

can't say that out loud statement you can't say that and can i ask you so you are an active player as we just talked about on this podcast and so you're weekly you're practicing and you meet the coaches and edgar in a certain capacity and then on a different day, you're in a different capacity, you're as this business associate. Is that sometimes weird or awkward or it's just natural within the bulls organization? I wouldn't say weird is not the right word, but it is a different type of conversation or relationship that you need to have because in certain instances, you would want to talk about business and then contract negotiations come up. So there is difficulty that comes with it. But the relationship I have with Edgar and the team has always been deeper than just a player.

So I think that also helped in this new role I have because they talk to me as people that really wants to help me grow and not just an employee that's around, you know, and that helps save this new role. I don't want to harp on this, but I mean, I spent that time in the Bulls and I kept saying afterwards, what a people-centered organization this is. The people that are in that organization, how wonderful they are. And maybe wonderful is not the right word, but they're such great people. And, you know, down to earth and open to ideas.

And, you know, I like that. And I suppose you thrive in that environment. And talking about that, you're not just this. You're not just a rugby player and you're not just part of the Bulls commercial side. You also have your own coffee business.

And that's actually your true passion, apparently. you said to me the other day. I remember the very first time I bumped into Loftus, you know, I stumbled in the white light and I don't know where I was going. Lunga still offered me one of your cups of coffee, if I remember correctly. And yes, yeah, about that side of it.

And yes, so social being we started in 2021 just after COVID. We actually started as a coffee trailer at Loftus serving the team and the management at Loftus. Also opportunity the bulls gave me and from there I started roasting for myself and people started asking about my coffee beans and I started giving some away and then started selling them and since then I've totally given up on selling coffees like in a cup form. We're doing beans for offices, retail and consumers online. And you're a barista as well, you can make coffee if you wanted to.

We can if we do events and activations and that sort of thing. How did you get into the coffee business? Is it something like, are you like my wife that just absolutely loves coffee? Or was it a business-driven decision? This is a way for me to make good money.

Yeah, in the beginning, it was just because I love coffee. In my seven days, you travel a hell of a lot and you start to develop or you start to learn, listen, when we get to this country, this is a coffee shop we go to. and we there this is the spot we go to and at the time i was following philip sneeman since africa and kyle brown i was following them around and they showed me the spot so i built up a real appreciation for coffee and when i came back to the bulls full time it was a matter of we couldn't get any good coffee because of the covert restrictions and i and i just asked it listen here can i put can i put some proper coffee uh down there at the gym for the guys and he said go for it. Could you talk a little bit more about that because I'm more of an outsider to the bulls but I've gotten to know many of the people that work now through this podcast by interviewing them including Edgar. It feels to me like it is not standard or normal to have that kind of flexibility in a business leader to help a young person like yourself with your coffee business or with the internship and that type of stuff.

Am I right in that, that it is kind of in the way that Edgar and the other business leadership operate, that they're looking for opportunities to develop people outside of their rugby playing? Definitely. And when I say gratitude, that's one of the things I refer to because the type of management we have at the Bulls is one. I know of a few guys that has gone to EDK and said, listen, I want to start this business or service or whatever it might be, will you be able to help? And they're open to help and they go out of their way to help, even if it's just advice.

I've spoken to board members about plans I have, ideas I have, dreams I have, and they offer their support and encouragement. So it's not normal. are blessed in that way and that's why I just love being at the Bulls and being part of this organization because it's not just about therapy but it's about like you said now helping people set up their life to become better people. Stephen, something that we've picked up talking to players, for example, you mentioned earlier you were injured, you had an operation on your knee and you had to go spend, you would have spent seven months at home if you know for recovery or whatever And we've heard, we've learned now, often when a player gets injured, he's sort of sidetracked, you know. He's outside of this inner circle.

And that puts a huge mental challenge on it. You developed something called InWord to address psychological issues of rugby players. I mean, I can't stop talking about stuff that you've been doing. It's going to take another hour to get through all of it. Talk to me about InWord.

What is that? Yeah, InWord is a service that I've actually handed that over to Kelly. She is a psychiatrist at the Bulls and she's taking the lead on that project now. But I started that a couple of years ago, also with the help of the Bulls management. It's a service for the players whenever they go through these tough times and difficult times.

We don't necessarily want to talk to somebody that's internal or within the system. I don't know, guys, they like to keep that sort of stuff private. But it's just an avenue for you to reach out to mental health professionals to get the help that you need in the conversations. Yeah, so that is, I'm not as involved with that project anymore. But I got that off the ground Yeah but you identify the need for it because there a big need for it The players you know off the field who are they What their identity You know what type of man are they There's some big questions that need to be answered.

That's not necessarily answered by, you know, how much you train and everything else. It's more. You spend 80 minutes a week on the rugby field all the other times. It's off the rugby field. And that's where all this other stuff comes in.

And you start young. You start as an 18-year-old and you don't have those four or five years at university where life starts slower and you start to figure out who you are. You start as an 18-year-old in a high-performing, high-pressure environment. You're often given money that you don't know how to handle at the time and you deal with that and that fixes a lot of your problems at the time. So sometimes you can get to 25, 26, get a massive injury and suddenly a lot of these questions needs answering.

And that's when you need some sort of outlet, some sort of professional help to help you navigate through. I don't believe anybody else will be able to give you the answers, but somebody can help you ask the right questions to get you there. I want to kind of run a little bit with what you've said. On this podcast, we talk a lot about how fans and the media can sometimes go overboard in the way they react to game results or players, how they did, etc. And recently, there's been a lot of stuff in the news about coaches even talking about the keyboard warriors.

And it's always a very controversial topic, but for us, it's not. Can you as a player in the context of this mental health, talk a little bit about what it feels like for a player that's a professional athlete that gets paid a lot of money but when you read and hear the things that people say about when you have a bad game or rumors that get spread when people don't have information but they make up stuff can you talk about that a little bit yeah no it it can affect you in a very negative way especially when you when you're done um then you use. I don't know why, but your brain, it just believes those sort of things in those in those moments where it shouldn't. So the rule of God is I don't read the positive comments, because if I believe those I have to believe the negative ones as well. But it can have a real negative effect on you.

Definitely. In your mind, in your mind, do you feel like players always say when they're interviewed they always say yeah we don't really look at the social media and we're not affected by it but when you have private conversations you often hear what you just said and is it true that players do end up seeing it or hearing about it and that it does have a big impact on them yeah some players you get to the stage where it's unavoidable it's gonna you're gonna end up seeing it it's not like you're going out to go look for it you're not opening the comment section but it gets to a point sometimes where it's going to enter your world one way or another and people don't necessarily realize that. If you get tagged, it pops up as a notification. So what do you do? I know Dion Friis said that.

You can't not see it. It's going to come up. So the question is how do you handle it? And another thing that's been popping up lately, the abundance of fake news sites on Facebook, for example, You know, like yesterday, the shocking post about Kane and Moody and everything else, obviously designed as opposed to destabilized the team. Because honestly, people don't know that that is fake news.

What would you say to people when they see something like that? Something quite outrageous, like the referee got the biggest penalty in the history of referees because that's a bad game. Or like Paul said, he was definitely bright and stuff. And people believe it. What would you say?

What would you advise about how to deal with this kind of fake news? How do you know it's fake news, for example? How do you confirm it without being told that it's fake? Yeah, for me, I always look at the source. Whenever I look at news, if it's not a major outlet or if it's not repeated in a few of them, then I tend to not believe it.

Because there's a lot of small guys popping up at the moment that just they're creating clickbait. so I wouldn't necessarily go on one source especially if you see it on social media and you've only seen it and it's very shocking news you've seen it on one very small source chances that that guy will have that scoop is very low so I wouldn't necessarily believe stories like that so what we're going to be doing in conjunction with the bulls if there's something like that coming up I did it yesterday as I specifically debunked one of those ones and said on my channels everywhere I could this is not true I'm going to mention those names I don't want to give them oxygen but I want people to know when they see those sites on Facebook that they are fake sites I'm telling you right now people the one is called Iron Horse and the other one is called Blue Bulls Empire those are fake sites people they are not posting true stories or anything else they're simply wanting you to click on it because they get money from that that's it so the outrageous stuff that they're publishing there is not the truth and you should ignore it take it from megaphone we know it and if there's something that we notice that's actually true we will say that But I'm going to go all out to debunk these kind of things. I think it's quite important. Sorry, Paul, over to you. I wanted to ask, really, you've made me question.

I've always thought that I've worked hard in my life. But as we go through the list of things that you're involved with or actively doing off the field, you've had me kind of have to question my own work ethic. Is it true that in addition to that, your work on the commercial side with the Bulls, your help getting the inward mental health thing off the ground, your social beam coffee business. You're also studying for an industrial psychology degree at the moment. Is that accurate?

That is accurate. I actually, last semester, I had to pause because of my schedule, but I am actively pursuing a degree. Hopefully, by the time I'm done with rugby, I would have finished it. But like you're saying now, it does get tough with everything I'm trying to do at the moment. I have two questions related to that.

What made you pick industrial psychology? And how difficult is it with you with all your other things and that you're an active player to make time for that studies? I think just the way we spoke about it earlier, the way my brain works, how I think about stuff, it tends to be a little bit deeper. And I do believe that when you can get it, when you can win the battle upstairs, the rest becomes a lot easier. And I wanted to understand myself better.

And I think that's one of the reasons why. I've also taken up a big interest in business. since that last update so that might change scheduling has become a big part of my life and my wife sees a big gap in that setting our blocks and i look at it as departments at this stage so when i'm at the bulls on tuesday like yesterday i'll be in that space now where that hat when I'm away and I'm doing work for Social Bean. I'll be in that space and try to block out and ignore everything else. I do get a lot of complaints that said when you don't reply, but people don't understand that they're talking to me on the wrong day.

I'm founder of Social Bean today. You can't talk to me about commercial stuff. But yeah, it is a balancing act. You talked about a lot of things, and you've mentioned your wife now a couple of times because that's the one thing that's most important, you know, juggling all these balls, your family, you know, traveling away, you just came back from overseas. You talked about your long flight that you had to endure to go to Dublin.

You had to go another direction, another route. That's quite a tough one. Your family, I see a little picture there behind you. Talk to me about your family. Yeah, my lovely wife there.

Yeah, everything, everything. I always tell my wife, I think a man can endure a hell of a lot if he knows why he's doing it. And I definitely know I do it for them. I do it for my father, for my mother, for my sister. And that gives me, that's a big why to get up when I'm tired.

Her biggest worry for me at the moment is burnout. So she's constantly trying to just organize weekends away or weekend at home for me. Because she sees how busy it gets. but my thinking is I feel like this is going to be alive for some time, for a couple of years and then at some stage it's going to come back to normal because everything we wanted to set up will be in a place where it can run on its own. I think maybe that's a good way to start wrapping up this interview you and what I wanted to ask you is if you look back at your rugby career so far, what is the highlight, the thing that stands out the most for you?

And then as you look, start looking beyond your rugby career, like we've talked about now, what do you hope for when your rugby playing days and what do you hope would be what you do then? Looking back and forward is difficult for me. Looking back, I would say my highlight in my seventh career was my debut for the Blitzbox. Like I said earlier, it was a childhood dream. I really wanted to play for that team.

And when I got that call up in Vancouver, I couldn't speak on the field. I remember Branko Repria telling me, open your mouth. But it was just such a big moment for me. And looking forward, I just want to be proud because there's so many different departments that I'm trying to keep alive at the moment. I just really want to be proud of the effort I put in.

Even if nothing works out, if my wife tells me, statement you really tried, then if it ends like that, I'll be happy. And you need to convert that fourth final in five years into a title statement. That's going to be something. yeah and and i was i was gonna say and next saturday next saturday i was saying yeah that's the funny thing suddenly it's on a friday afternoon because some rock concert i mean what a joke anyway the irish can't organize a yeah a party in the brewery i'm kidding people don't kill me i'm just joking stephan thank you so much for this we really appreciate you making time for us i know you're a very busy man like you amply does uh illustrated to us just now good luck for next week you know safe travels everything and we are 100 behind you the whole south africa i'm sure thank you very much india appreciate it thank you paul and then i just want to say i got up at 2 a.m in the morning right now it's 3 30 in the morning to do this interview and i feel like it was one of the best decisions i made and some of the best time i've invested to have this conversation with you i I learned a lot, but I leave here kind of inspired and just loving to see the person you are.

And what EnVyUs says is our experience in these interviews is it's our overall view. We learn that these players and coaches are thoughtful, kind, smart, intelligent people and makes us love them and the teams that we're fans of even more. and i just wanted to say for you in particular what an impressive conversation this was and i hope that everyone watches this to the end and sees everything that you're involved in and i'd say the same to kick ass on a saturday in a week and a half from now and bring the title back home to south africa thank you very much appreciate it appreciate your time this is the long way to the The Game, only on Megaphone Rugby.

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