Is Jacques Nienaber The Sacrificial Lamb for Leinster’s Failures? Birthday Special Lekker Rugby Pod

So from the very inside of Leinster, I'll give you a quote. Worst coach we've ever had probably cost us three cups. Doesn't see things. Is completely blind. But really good in the boardroom.

And really good at saving his hide. Whatever plans you had, you're going to get stabbed by a root somewhere. And it's whoever adapts. And whoever is okay with the street fight. Whoever is okay with just closing your eyes, putting your arms around your head, and just going down the river and just believing yourself and the people around you.

That's who's gonna win. That's probably where Glasgow's weak point is. You know, let's pick five guys from each team to go out into the alley and fight. I'd pick the Bulls. So if they can make it that kind of game, I think Bulls win.

This is the Lekker Rugby Pod. Only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the special anniversary edition of the Lekker Rugby Pod. I just stumbled across the fact that today is our two-year anniversary. Well, happy anniversary, I suppose.

I don't know if that's a thing to say, but it's been a while. It's been a road. Yo, man, it's been great. I cannot think of anything bad. I think maybe personality-wise I'm this way anyway, but in truth, this has been a lot of growth.

We've grown in audience. We've grown in subscribership. We've grown in opportunity. We've grown into access. but also along the way we became friends and that's cool because let me tell you looking behind the curtain there's a lot of you know rivalries and envy and not so much friends in this business and it's really cool to have taken this this leap with you when you gave me the invitation I was intrigued and I wasn't sure how it will work worked a lot better than I thought was going to work and I thought it was going to work pretty well I was about to ask you what were expectations when you started.

Were there any? Oh, when they say the happiest country in the world is Denmark, and they drill down into that. And they realize it's because the Danes have very low expectations. So they're always happy. I know I tried to always imagine the worst case scenario in all parts of my life at all times without any relenting.

So that has resulted in a happy Harry. Because I really just think, wow, this is great. Everything is great. But this thing, this north-south, this sort of odd couple, this loyal, stable Praetorian with this roguish Capetonian who cannot get his head out of his arse, this thing, yeah, I think it's fantastic. It's a microcosm of so many other things.

And every time we've put this template on top of a scenario, a situation, a person, a guest, it really works. It always, it's crackling. And I think, yeah, it's better than some of our parts because I don't think we could have come up with this in a solo way. Yeah, I agree with you. All right, I wanted to ask you a silly question, but, you know, when did you realize that we are actually, this is actually working?

I mean, you and I just started the first episode we ever shot. My cat was doing the walkabouts on the bookshelf behind me and it was all kinds of challenges. and I was struggling with the English late at night kind of a thing and when did you realize it's actually working? When Jake White called me and shouted at me it's a nerve Let me teach you a rugby lesson I really knew my name I know that's exactly what it was Your favorite guest if you want to look back quickly Oh wow It's probably this side by side thing we're doing so it's a double guest and I gotta say I probably enjoyed Rito, Shlingwani, and Ben Jason Dixon almost too much, where I forgot my outline. I had such good questions, and I just lost my way.

Just listening to such a great motivational speaker, but all the guys, you know, and I think probably the derivative of that is relationship with John Dobson, Dobbo, what a great man, and that's been one of my favorite things too, just to get the insights, and I don't betray them. there's an awful lot of things he shares um as as a lonely job as jacques need up i just pointed out at the top you know it's difficult so um yeah probably that and then um i think the idea of the knowledge behind the scenes which i know you're getting a lot of us by the bulls it's it's very intriguing i'm really enjoying the behind the curtain stuff yeah for me the difference was when i spoke to someone about it last night actually is we never got to interview joke once he made many many promises but he never made an appearance we've spoken to job to your akraman twice already we've spoken to deal the brain we've spoken to dabo and that's also double after we had to either mend some breaches there and that to me is what the big difference is any enough praising our own backsides yeah let's move on to the big news of the moment jock ninaba what is going on there i mean that that journalists i call that you call it you you coined the phrase but i actually use it in a whatsapp conversation it's got a lot of duasitude you know i'm actually thinking of making that our caption honestly that is just ridiculous it's a high level it's a lofty level of leinster dualsitude wow um if you get into the leinster um mindsets and you realize a couple of things one is ireland got rich but if you say ireland got rich what really happened was a particular part of ireland got very rich off of changes in the economy of being on the edge of europe of being the exact middle you know between new york and london sort of uh the outpost but also highly educated ready to go ready for this new economy but as they got rich they took on some swagger too and there's a so there's a breed of subculture in the darny brook south dublin area that the rest of ireland doesn't necessarily appreciate and it's uh it's very haughty it's very almost reminiscent of the class system. And so they've gotten a little bit ahead of themselves in some ways. And I think this Jacques Ninabe thing points it out in the death of logic. So here's my run through.

Before Jacques Ninabe was hired, Leinster needed something. They wanted something. They said, please, please, please come, come save us. It wasn't like they were sitting on top of the mountain and then Jacques came and messed it up. They couldn't get over the mountain and every time they got out physicaled by a french team someone pointed out this is never going to work unless we get someone who can stop teams who's one of the best stoppers in rugby history ever who could work out systems and stop them oh jacques ninaber so they go hand uh and they're going begging for jacques to come jacques delivers them something they hadn't had in a while which is a cup, by stopping the Bulls, just stopping them.

And this is a high-scoring Bulls team, as you know. It just obliterated that attack, humbled the Bulls, got the cup in the trophy room. There it is in the cabinet. Now, the next thing to solve was going to be Europe. What's Europe's problem?

The French teams can match the budget and then some of Leinster. So it's not going to be just rocking up and being better, stopping someone. You're not going to stop Bordeaux. So it was about containment, Jacques. Please contain them.

He did contain them. They scored two tries, one off Damien Peneau's knee and the other one off on the intercept from a system that's run by Thier Blandahl. Heard of him? Nobody has. He's 35 years old.

He's a Kiwi. And for some reason, it's never his fault. I don't know what pictures he has, but they developed attack and never went anywhere. They scored 19 points or something, way below average. Jacques kept Bordeaux at average.

Even if you put the two tries, he didn't let in on his ledger. So actually, I think he did perform fine. And then all you hear about is Nienaber. You don't hear about Leo because Leo is Mr. Leinster.

He's involved in every board committee, subcommittee, non-profit drive. He has history. But they came to Jacques. I mean, he didn't. It wasn't like they were on top of the mountain and they want to get.

So they brought him. He gives them a cup. They fall short in a cup where the attack was the thing that just got stymied. It took forever to score. They were knackered.

And then they say, well, the defense is tiring out the attack. It was the attack that scored first. And they looked literally like they were dying after that first try. And they never recovered. So I don't understand what the brief is to attack Jacques.

But clearly, that was the main attack. My sources tell me, from the good part of Dublin, the part that is exceptionally fun to be around very fair-minded very careful with facts is that leo has been a problem for a long time he's like the old man who won't quit he keeps saying oh yeah but i'm gonna turn over the reins you know i'm tired of doing this you know you just do it but every time something happens he takes the reins back just enough where it messes up the whole system he's profoundly uninspiring he repels knowledge and he doesn't have any way of taking in the new rugby so you're putting uh you're hanging out someone to dry if you just said jacques take it then he would do something and the attack would not look like this anyone saying that jacques has control of this attack this is so far from what jacques would put on the field it would be be much more like box and and and bordeaux which is quick strike counter-attacking use defense as attack and then go click attack everyone flood the channels and score it's it's not this you know building 25 phases that's never been jacques way so the whole thing is scrambled and then you have this guy i don't know how to pronounce his name o'connor who writes something and it's um it's self-aggrandizing it's like he's the center of the story suddenly we're supposed to live through his emotions i'm in your seat mr o'connor oh how wonderful it would be to be you to finally grill someone a nice man like jock nidaber who's just trying to do his job and he's constrained by his employment agreement from saying what he really thinks so i'll get you gotcha get you got you all the time and then at some point he kind of he's hot full and he blows uh and good for him i'm glad he said it i'm also kind of good for the stormers maybe we'll capitalize but um you know there's something really rotten going on now where everyone's just pointing at each other and and they're in a circular firing squad i wonder how you pronounce that name rodri rodri rodri i don't know i mean it's rubbish rubbish so corner rubbish so corner there we go that's like a south african spin on it for you so thank you to all you know this bashing and stuff but i mean honestly there's a bit of an agenda going on here leo is obviously setting the ground to to offer up someone as a sacrificial lamb and that's going to be juggling over a double world cup winning coach of the spring box i mean okay he was with russie doesn't matter he is still a rugby world cup winner and he went to lens that took a bit of a downgrade for his family he didn't want to travel anymore and this is how they teach them they call him the devil you've you've made a deal with the devil honestly and i'm getting really worked up about this now and not because it's this you don't talk to people like i mean i've sat in many many press conferences as have you I haven't seen this level of almost disrespect, I suppose you can call it. And clearly, listen, like a lamb led to the slaughter and just left alone. We just heard now, Leinster doesn't even have a media officer at the moment. They just let things happen.

In the week before the semi-final, after they've lost the Champions Cup final. You know, like you just said, there's not even something rotten there. That smell stinks to high heaven, if you ask me. The fix is in. So what's happening now is, this is classic.

And so they're doing a drip, drip, drip. And then it'll feel like it was Jacques' decision. And that's how they portray it when it ends. But it didn't have to be this way. My thought experiment for everyone, and I would beseech you, our Irish listeners, to answer this fairly.

If you had a poll of all the players and all the coaches, assistant coaches, head coaches in the top four leagues, as well as the test nations. So all the big guys and also Erk, Prem, top 14, super rugby and you said defensive coaches stack force rank them you know just do that jock's gonna be in the top five in everyone's list he'll be top three in most and he'll be the top in plenty tire blind doll for attack who the is he no one knows he won't even be in the top 50. uh hopefully hopefully he turns into a good coach bless him um leo cullen average to below average good at getting people to stay because he has lots of money uninspiring and as i said repels knowledge he doesn't have the ability to change adapt um evolve so from the very inside of leinster i'll give you a quote worst coach we've ever had probably cost us three cups uh it doesn't see doesn't see things he's completely blind but really good in the boardroom and really good at saving his hide you ever run into a guy like that we all have in every business so he's probably gonna survive but uh it wasn't that that's not right and if they could see why they lost so here's the problem i've always said this you've got to know why you lose you've really got to know it's not enough to just go wow that's that was horrible i'm humble we lost that's terrible i accept the loss you have to analyze why you lost in order to win and um we've seen that with coaches who can do it with less resources like uh franko smith you know and know why they lose they can actually tell you exactly why and it's really interesting when you hear it because you go oh that's it you know and i think eddie jones never figured that out about 2019 and it scuppered his whole career after that and it can bedevil you it can make you crazy it may have been what also afflicted a bit uh for jake white so when when something happens when you think you You should win and you lose. That's terrible. In this case, Bordeaux was favored.

So it was always going to be a tough one. And they didn't get close. But I think the analysis of why they lost is way off in much of Dublin. Not in the thinking part. Not in the part that actually made Ireland rich, by the way.

The people who actually thought through and are brutally honest and efficient. But there's a lot of this sort of parasitical class that runs around and they just act like they invented it. and they don't know anything. Rubbish O'Connor, I would challenge him to come on our show and just go head-to-head, and let's go through the game and see why Lentz got beaten so badly. It ain't the defense.

Let me just give you a plot twist preview. Now, it's quite clear that he was drip-fed, I suppose, talking points. You said you run the rugby program, implying that he's actually running the attack. He never said that. He said he runs how much time they're going to spend in a week on this, and they've only got 180 minutes in the week to prepare.

But now they're trying to paint it as if he's running the attack as well. That's something else. But what I did like about Jacques' approach to this, and he could clearly see he was quite worked up, is the fact that he saw it for what it was and he called it out. He says, you know, you guys are being pressured so that the CEO can fire me at the end of the day without the CEO firing me kind of a thing. And that's what he can see it coming, clearly.

So that to me is one side. The other question is then what happens? Does he leave a year earlier than he should if he was, he just signed the other day to stay until 2027? Is he coming back to South Africa? you're going to take up sharks director of rugby or bulls whatever or where is he going or was he going back to the balls to the box i suppose if he leaves early i just pinged uh hendrik cronier and i asked him so does russi get sean edwards or jacques ninawa there's another story brewing the two the two best defensive coaches in in our era let's just oh in the century okay i'm not even sure that there were defense coaches in the 80s when i was playing defense was optional um and it And it was a lot of arm tackling and lunging and really easy tries.

Defense is a whole new animal. And these two guys, Sean and Jacques, I mean, amazing. They should open up a consulting business and just call it that Rugby D you know Jacques and Sean or is it Sean and Jacques and make sure that everyone comes to them and they make a pretty penny but yeah I could see Rossi licking his lips and saying you want to be that stupid okay we're gonna have him anyway but we'll have him early but what about a guy like Jay Flattery I mean he's he's pretty well said I'm saying the box setup is quite settled but you want to disturb that a little bit you know a year out from the cup i suppose and just before the season starts maybe yeah that's the one thing that you know i mean those are like troms that's boy keys like like zoc and rossi could mend fences it could be delicious they could argue really well um the shutdown effect of jock nina but in that run that he had was is unparalleled i mean jerry's trying to get to that point where you can shut teams down and perhaps that's really not where rugby is going so there might be an argument that jerry fits better into the felix rossi counter-attack mode than jock i don't know i don't know that i cannot really like so here's the thing it's hard to judge jock right now in leinster because it's difficult to know what he's allowed to do and and what he's working with um to some extent when you have centrally contracted players through urfu you have to play them and it might be that jock would like to drop some people and play more athleticism and find more of that but he has to stick with the sort of you know the plow horses and no he's not allowed to to get those tricky horses that can you know turn quicker and it's a big back line um that was my impression when they played bordeaux is they were difficult it was difficult for them to turn and they they didn't scamper very well hugo keenan is the only one that looks like a scamperer um jamison gibson park always knows where the ball is going to be but his body cannot give him you know he can't get him there anymore um so when jock's working with the superior athlete that he has in camp uh buckland you know i understand that i could i understand the argument that jock is working with such athletes as difficult maybe he's overrated you know i get that argument but he he knows what to do with them and there's something to that too is it's one thing to be given kurt the irons at prime tristan colby uh you know athletes like afele face or or athan hooker or there's some really crazy athletes and i get that kane and moody but someone still has to be able to mold them together and make them eat fire and you know spit out nails and and jock's emotional leadership there is is what i'm talking about gary ringrose has been quite public that the gary ring rose we know now which is a highly physical fear fearsome guy that's a ninaber creation he wasn't that way before talking about silos you're talking about there might not have been defense coaches in the 80s or the previous century for that matter nowadays you have attack coaches uh defense coaches and you know transition coaches isn't links that still a little bit too in a silo this is your defense you focus on this and this is attack and we'll focus on this and never that never the two shall meet kind of a thing isn't that part of the problem yes um if i was hired to be the fixer for leinster i would say we're going to break these walls down first so you work really hard you know on on defense you say get the ball back but you don't get the ball back to then go i'm giving you the ball now attack now you go attack for a while you might win the ball and immediately kick it over the top again and go back on defense but in a better place because because it's more territorial than it is possessory. So if I just keep giving the ball back, but in a worse spot, worse spot, worse spot, I'm almost giving you all the possession you want. So how does that get coached on a defensive standpoint?

Paul De Villiers turns the ball over, Ben Jason Dixon counter-ucks, and the ball spits out. Now, what does Imi Khan do? Maybe he kicks it right over the top again. So is Imi Khan being defense, or is he being attack? which coach is in his ear at that moment.

You've got to have synergy around where you want to play and how you want to play at breakdown, at mall, because you could switch in a moment from defense to attack and on the kicking game. So when the kicking game starts to go, we call it kick tennis sometimes, but it's more about making you make a mistake. What do I think when I'm sitting there in the middle and I'm Evan Ruiz and I'm watching the ball go over my head and I stop and I stop and I stop? Am I on defense or am I on attack? so rugby isn't so neatly placed and Leinster does that to their peril Ireland doesn't the same players put on a green shirt and they they look a lot more um connected and it's very interesting so you know I would always look at the top first and say Leo you've been there a long long long time and the and the failures rest much more heavily on you I don't know why they're equally shared with Jacques somehow or maybe even more with Jacques he just got here he's produced the cup you couldn't and um and it looks like you made a bad hire on attack or you should have said it to everyone it's going to be a while before our attack is good again you know Tyler's still learning his business but if you looked if you did a google search and you said Jacques and you had Tyler Nina Abba versus Blindal um you know it's going to be 1000 to 1 against Jacques and I don't understand that at all it's clearly obvious harry the problem is not the defense the problem is the attack i mean any a blind man who for stick can see it anyway that's there's enough of that let's talk about this coming weekend semi-finals the the very same leinster playing against the poor baby stormers as you call them severely depleted stocks usher out for what's it three months i suppose um serbeles and nightclub big setback we talked about to him last week i've of all those side by sides i actually enjoyed that one the most because i was most surprised by the two personalities i love that one specifically and i'll put the link up here but talk to me about that firstly you put out a little spreadsheet that we talked about in terms of the cap gap you know how much experience international experience lenser guys have compared to the stormers they're severely depleted stormers like i just said i'm not making excuses right in advance people before you crucify me again i'm just saying the reality is it's the fact there's a lot of players not playing for the for the stormers that ideally would have been playing so down to down to almost a bare bones i suppose even if even if um all the stormers were there sasha korbas you know primarily it would still be a cap gap um even if you put france malherbert in you know one of the highest caps just because it's unbelievably unusual how many capped players leinster has so there's 20 20 player in the top 20 caps if you took all of the two teams together of everyone they can choose from right now that are healthy and you say what's the top 20 guys with caps 19 of them are leinster and the ones damien willem sir so um and then beyond and underneath that there's another there's a much more lenster as well so it is actually a mismatch uh in caps and i use test caps just because it's the most correlative factor with um knockout rugby and if we put you know world cup knockout wins then actually stormers would have six to nil because damien willem says won six knockout games sorry to be cheeky lies lies and dabs statistics but the statistic of test caps is actually in instructive and it's informative uh and leinster's lost people too as well like arki sleiman um you know um so i'm not i'm not doing any kind of trickery there i'm saying that's a that's a fact now dobbo has done a different thing with that dobbo said you know obviously he announced his five-year project when he came on our part the first time and it was year one and you know we're year two now and arguably ahead of schedule uh because challenging for a semi-final and for him it's it's almost like a better barometer of the project because it'd be one thing if everyone was there kubus to sasha uh starting 9 10 would be great um and with sanatla was unbelievable in the wing on the kick chase you got all your people there you're ready you know your line-out callers maybe you had jd shickling who is probably our best lock um you know in place but they don't and double is taking the opportunity to enjoy this week and instill guys with pride and also the power of possibility and so look at this you know yuri matia look at this what a cool thing you have instead of you know talking about sasha all the time talk about yuri like what do you see you know he's got a fantastic skill set you see you see it in times where he does things that other flies don't do he does things that sasha doesn't do i mean sasha does more things that yuri cannot do but there's stuff that yuri does it's very very good um give a guy like imi khan confidence like hey you know you you gave up a few points last week with a few things you also took a few back let's see a better performance and it's to me it's one of those great opportunities and dabo's thinking this will give us a better read of where we are in the project than if we had everyone because then we're relying on the big guys let's see where our depth goes let's take a red hot swing it's a free swing um all the power all the all the pressure rests on leinster this would be the biggest choke and leinster's got some great chokes i mean in the history of chokes and chokerdom um leinster is the choke king you know they are the choke kings but if if they could choke this weekend it would be the best choke ever it would be amazing like there's no way they should lose they should just walk on and and you know we should just be happy to be on the field with them.

You know, they should put 60 on us and they should not let us score. So congratulations if you choke. And you know, I imagine the recriminations will be even better. Press conferences in Leinster, in Dublin right now, are the coolest thing to watch in rugby. They're even better than the game.

I was about to say, better than the game. Yeah. I think the Stormers can get in there and win. And here's why. There's five ways that lancer has seemed to give opponents opportunities head-to-heads always really matter with players so 35 nil is not a joke first game of the irk um it no one in stormers thinks it'll be 35 no what i'm saying is the confidence that comes from actually like holding your opponent down and just walking all over putting just literally putting tire tracks on his face you don't forget that and if you're on the revenge side you can often try too hard and get all caught up in that so i think on the emotion factor and confidence factor uh with the same cost of characters it was yuri you know it was it wasn't like the stormers were stacked in the first game either and and they took care of business um second thing is the scrum is um unavoidable and you know the two front rows motongo porthen um you have mkunu and you have uh fushia just Just munching, like obliterating people with really strong hookers, JJ and Andre Higofente as well in the scrum.

Backed by a pack that really cares. Brock Harris, tip a hat to him. He's unbelievable. The 60 plus penalties won by any scrum. It's the best in the world in just winning penalties.

I'm not talking about other metrics, but that one. Andrew Porter has sometimes given up six penalties in a game. I was at a game between England and Ireland where England was carded in the first two minutes, and they were still in the game at minute 60 because Andrew Porter couldn't scrum. So I think that's green light. First one is the head-to-head.

Second one is the scrum. Third one is they require so many phases to build attacks because their attack is sick. Then guys like Paul De Villiers and a host of characters who get over the ball love that. The pilfer per carry, pilfer per phase, very high for the Stormers. And it's from that that guys like Imi Khan, young guys, Yuri, Imi, can really springboard.

I don't know who's going to start at 12. It might be Johnny Roche, might be Dan Duplassie. But that kind of fractured ball is what they like. And Willemsa feeds off it too. And the fourth thing is they've got problems at 10 as well.

Leinster has never settled the season on who is my leader, who's my field general. it reverts then to Jamison Gibson Park and you know what South African teams can do to a team that depends on a nine we'll find him and we'll put him in the rubbish bin so he will be in trouble all night long so that's the problem is you put it on nine then you get Antoine you know and then suddenly the goat looks like a lamb that's the problem because the ten hasn't stood out they haven't had Sam have his moment They haven't had Harry have his moment. I don't know who wants to make that kick to win or not win. That's not fun. Whereas I think, you know, I think Matias has been a very good goal kicker.

And his strike is good. And I don't fancy he'll crumble. He seems to be made of stern stuff. The final point that Lens to give you is they get carded a lot. They are the highest carded of all the teams that made the playoffs.

and it's also you look at how many, where the cards come from. It's not all on defense. It's on attack. It's on a cleaning. Their rug cleaning is very suspect and been looked at very hard this year by the referees.

And the problem is it's hard to shirk a weak scrum. The refs know you're a weak scrum before you come in and so they're already inclined to see you as weak. And then on carded, dirty, high, crock roll, all that stuff, they're already briefed on it. So Holly Davidson is going to have her mind already set to say, I'm going to watch James Ryan very closely, Joe McCarthy very closely. And I'm saying to Holly, please watch James Ryan and Joe McCarthy really closely because every second fucking ruck that they do is wrong and is incredibly filthy.

So I'll just tell you about that. And I've watched every ruck James Ryan did in a game once just to understand how hard he works. Love his work rate. love how hard he plays but the man plays dirty i did too so i'm not even you know saying it's bad yeah talking about ollie davidson um you know there's this tendency to use it use it use it even if the ball's under the blocks feet but you are using it to gain in it to try and you know enforce a penalty is she a proponent of play away or is she more inclined to what those penalties that you were talking about yeah so there's a lot when you're one of the first referees of a particular group, in this case, Jim, they were talking about. It's difficult.

I guess you don't want to be the headline for the wrong reasons. So I imagine that there's been behind the scenes a mandate on all refs about this issue of not letting scrums be the centerpiece of rugby. Let's play more rugby. Scrums aren't rugby. Use it because scrum is not using it.

No, you know, I think that Scrum is using it, Scrum is rugby, and that when you're making the opponent prop squeal, and imagine how fun it is to hear Andrew Porter squeal. Imagine that squeal sounds really, really ugly. And let him squeal and let us use the ball to make Andrew Porter squeal so that later, when we're playing, you know, rugby you like, maybe we'll go around him because he'd be tired. You know, the mall, the Scrum, these things are, these are ways of sapping energy and forcing you to decide whether you're a man or a boy. And I think that's fair.

That's part of rugby. So that's always been clear. When you're moving your scrum forward and the ball is not in the back row under the eight feet yet, then it is being used and you should be able to scrum the entire length of the field, score under the post, penalty try, whatever. So that's wrong. but I think World Rugby has put a lot of pressure.

From Sir Bill Beaumont on, Sir Billy with his big arse, was always talking about how we got to make scrums less important you know that it a on the the attraction to new fans and it hard to explain to casual fans this mythical tribe of people in the amazon somewhere that we don't know that we want to attract instead of attracting guys like me who will go around the world to watch you um i i think you know the stormers have definitely made that um approach that memo to the rest there's a lot of talking before games to the refereeing team and and they will have made that case that don't like watch carefully before you say use it look under and see if the ball's still under ruben's feet and not evans because there's a really big difference in the law in an has to be stable set finished stop the movement and the ball has to be there before you make me use the ball because until then i'm allowed to see if i can make andrew squeal that's just part of the game you're not allowed to get out of it you know and either you either get dominated or you get the penalty uh either way it's fine that's the strong weapon so that's where i think a lot of those things are going to come from the second part is um holly holly gets in good positions in my opinion but fitness has never been more important for a referee in today's rugby because of how many attack sets there are and how many rocks and how many uh close calls there are so um I don't think the problem is her fitness. I think sometimes she takes very conventional lines to the ruck, and I think she has to develop maybe a quicker line, a Richie McCall line, and get there. What I don't want to have is that she's not there when the try is dotted down and always goes to TMO. I would like referees to get in the right place, fall on your belly if you have to, and get there and see it, because then I trust you, your eyes, more than the TMO having to see through the bodies that everyone jumps on now cynically on purpose to make sure you don't see it. Yeah, and so it's held up.

That's an interesting thing because we've often heard that criticism being leveled at Amy Baratron as well, that she's a yard or so behind the game. She arrives a little bit too late to see what's actually happening there. I don't know if that's necessarily true of Holly Davidson, but that's not what we're here to talk about. Something else, you mentioned the structured way that Linsdor plays, and Bordeaux exposed that. for those proponents of chaos, like Kennedy Zimbach called them.

And the Storms last weekend was also a little bit of a chaos, sometimes good, sometimes not so good. How can they upset Leinster's rhythm by being more chaotic, I suppose, with a less flashy, let's call it that, for lack of a better word, fly-off? That's true, but Yuri's quick. There was a play a week ago where he went to the edge and he got there. And he kind of did a sort of a Sasha wave the ball around thing as well.

It's funny because he, in some ways, he looks like a gangly Sam Prendergast type, but he's actually strongly made. I think he's got physical attributes. Yeah. I think there's a way where he breaks the line. And, you know, and I, so, yeah, I think, I think he's comfortable in space is what I'm saying.

And there's players like Paul De Villiers, increasingly players like Ben Jason Dixon, and we've always known Ruiz likes this too. open space for forwards is something Stormers crave. And they don't immediately think if they're a forward, they have to give it up. You know, they'll look for another forward because I don't know if someone's measured Tuk Sun Kunu's speed, but I don't know if there's a quicker prop. I mean, it reminds me of young Ox Incher just like begging for the ball in space and then people going, wow, I didn't know you had those wheels.

Nobody was an eight man before, man. That's why, yeah. The second coming of Richard Banz. I mean, it's unbelievable. And so I think, so what am I saying there is that when you want fracture and gray and you want a lot of chaos, you need everyone to be able to handle.

Otherwise, it doesn't really work very well. You know, Bordeaux works because everyone can handle. Everyone's fine with the ball. You don't go, oh, no. You know, it's, you know, Ben Tumofana.

It's okay. He's a prop, but he can handle the ball. And you don't have to have a perfect boss right in the perfect bread basket. You can get it anywhere and they'll catch it and go. So yes, that's one thing.

The second thing is the kicking game. If the Stormers can manage that right and do it right, they're totally in with the chance. I mean, to me, the upsets aren't. If set pieces and kicking game are fine, and then rip-roaring dominant tackles, the kind of tackles that take your soul, that's the preceding element for the jackal, is strong tackle equals jackal. And, you know, we had Norman Laker on.

And what a man. What a fun guy to be around. But he preaches doubles. And I think if you get low-high tackles on Leinster, they will definitely spill the ball. They have weaknesses, you know, across the field.

And a part of it's because right now Leinster is in two minds. And you cannot have this level of mom versus dad fighting before the kids are affected. and so something's happening there i don't know what's going to play they might be the best game of the year fuck's sake but but all that or they might some of that internal strife might come out and that's where you need to have clear minded driving stormers only one only lost one match on the road the season in the irk so they they can play what they can play on the road it's that's not an issue uh i actually think they like playing in ireland i think the rivalry between south African teams and Ireland has gotten spicy enough where it's not a derby but it's like a cousin derby it's a related derby yeah I know exactly that there's a lot to talk about this this brewing thing that's you know going on between South Africa and Ireland I wanted to ask you about this away thing the fact that it's away yes the Storms only uh they won they only lost one game overseas like you said but most of those games they won were early in the season if I remember correctly when the other teams were not at their best i suppose is it isn't that right yeah there's a it's it's a weak stat but it's a stat nonetheless in the sense that it's not usual to to win that well on the road um so it's something that you put into your your locker room that you put that spirit in that we can win anywhere i remember when jake white said to me in the kitchen you know we're just talking and he said that it wasn't so much the win that day was the idea we can win anywhere because we're gonna have to win away and it's the whole idea that we said from the beginning on this part is it's you're not always the underdog so you've got to win you've got to win the wrong way like we're the favorites it's pressure so um i yeah i just think right now the pressure game is is interesting leinster leinster is the reigning champions and yet it's almost like it feels like unbearable pressure right now that it's a failure the project has failed like you won the cup you got to the final of the european why is it so grim and dire um so maybe that's part of the irish soul coming out on the melancholy or you know talking yourself but i mean viva let's go aviva let's keep talking yourself all right we've now set this scene for the storm is actually being underdogs here because of this fantastic gap gap like you call it and you know lots of interesting likes so what do you think what's going to happen who's going to take this one um so head heart you know the head says the home team the reigning champion with you know 800 caps or something compared to whatever less than 100 it should they should win no um but there's something brewing there's something brewing i'll tell you a little bit of story it'll be quick uh once upon a time a friend of mine and i wanted to go down this canyon it's on the border of mexico and texas you have to actually cross the border and convince someone by paying them 10 bucks to drive you over not road to the other side of the canyon and we had the perfect raft that we had you know double sealed we had wet bags we had knives we had food we had um everything you need to be in a river and not get destroyed all that ready to go So put us in the other side of the canyon, close four, three rapids through this 1,000-foot cliff on both sides. One cliff is Mexico, one cliff is Texas, which is why it's hard to build a wall, by the way. So, and then we're shooting down these rapids.

That's the plan. It's going to take about an hour to get through those rapids. Long, cool, amazing. Sun's never seen that canyon ever in the history of the Earth. And then we're going to shoot into the Rio Grande at the end of that and just float gently on the border and be badasses.

So the guy takes us there. We get into the river and we're hoisting our little rubber raft onto the right passage. And it's stabbed by a tree. There's like a root coming out of the water and it just stabs the raft. And in one second, all the air is gone.

And along with it, much of our stuff is floating down. And there's nothing to it. Then we just have to get in the water, buttress ourself as much as possible and go down like human pinballs. because we're far away from any road. The guy's gone.

There's no way. We just come to shoot through the rapids and just keep the shit beat out of us. That to me is what's going to happen this final. I think whatever plans you had, you're going to get stabbed by a root somewhere and it's whoever adapts and whoever is okay with the street fight, whoever's okay with just closing your eyes, putting your arms around your head and just going down the river and just believing in yourself and the people around you. That's who's going to win.

I think this thing with Jock and Leo is going to cause a bit of a two-camp situation. You know, the Jock camp and the Leo camp, and you're going to see that on the field. The teams are not going to play, Leinster's not going to play as a United team. There's factions, there are factions, and I think we're going to see that. It might be booze.

Booze, yeah, yeah, booze. I thought you meant booze, like drinking. If Leinster loses, they will be booed off the field. Not they, but the coaches. yeah it reminds me of eddie jones how he lost his job at the end twickenham man you know elbow patched cranbridge you know soft loaf loafer uh you know maserati driving twickenham man you know got enough passion in his passionless self to boo gently yeah but still it was a gentle boo and that was the end of eddie because twickenham man rules you know those ticket prices so So, yeah, I think it's the same.

Leinsters had dwindling attendance. They barely had, I don't know if they had five figures for the quarterfinal. That's weird, you know. Why would you not go and watch a rugby match a mile away from your house? Yeah, I suppose.

Right, let's talk about the Bulls. Same story, gap-gap once again. Glasgow, a much wider spread, maybe not such big stars maybe in that team as the Bulls have among some of the players. but still in terms of experience a huge gap yeah it's interesting that gap though like so you put i put them side by side on on x you can watch it there or you might be on the screen yeah so you can see on the stormers leinster how stark it is on the bulls glasgow it's different um and and it's different in in some senses if uh hondre and willie stay healthy and and they're on the field then you have so many caps right where you want them, 10 and 15. So, you know, it's one of those issues where, you know, if you then drill down into those, which I have kind of done a little bit of backline, game drivers, maybe the spine of the team.

You know, John Smith always talked about the spine of the team, sort of the 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 15, like it's sort of right down the middle of the field. Bull's looking pretty good there. On the other hand, Glasgow has what I call cohesive caps, where you can just tell that these people have played with each other for a long, long time. They might not be household names, some of the Kyles, you know, Kyle Rowe, Kyle Stane, but geez, they know where each other are. And the forward pack, again, it's sort of unheralded in some ways.

but Jack Dempsey, when you look at his carry stats, for example, in the Six Nations and across all competitions, World Cup, he's never let his team down. He's a hard man to bring down. And the thing about knowing when you have a guy like Jack Dempsey, a strong carrying eight on your team, who doesn't think that Cameron Hanukom is better than him, you know, hasn't improved to Jack yet. So that's kind of a spicy matchup. You know, you can see why Glasgow comes in with swagger.

They believe. On the other hand, I believe in these Bulls. I think these Bulls can pull an upset here that isn't as much of an upset as the Stormers over the Leinster would be. But it's an upset nonetheless because it's in Scotland. I know it's not in Glasgow, but still.

And because of the recent history. So, and I think part of that is new faces, freshness and the coaching box. But with the players, I think there's a bit of revenge. not mean malicious criminal revenge but but i think there's a bit of uh we want to show these guys we're a bit tired of it you know we're hot for the other way so you know i think in the pack the pack is nice for the bulls it's big it's strong um i like the hookers that you can throw at them one two um i like some of the young locks very very not a very athletic group of players and for players like uh ruan norton not wanting it to be the final one yet you know just one more time let's just go one more time that's cool there's lots of stories inside the stories is what i'm saying i'm yeah just like i think the stormers could pull an upset here i think the bulls will probably pull an upset i'd probably give them 55 percent okay thank you very much my sustained campaign to make your bull support is finally bearing fruit i'm just i'm just calling it like it is you know we try to be uh fair when we think it's not working and this is a reflection not only of the Bulls building an upward trend in the season, there's a crack showing in Glasgow. Some of the cracks were in Cape Town.

And I know it wasn't the full team, but any little notches in your confidence, those little edges, you know, can really go sideways. And then just like my careening Canyon River Ride where I have no idea what was happening, that's what it can feel like in a game when the Bulls get on top of you. They have this sort of stampeding, no mercy, keep scoring kind of approach and freedom. Maybe that's what Jake White wasn't giving some of the players. It looks like Johan has.

And I remember you bringing up this quote that Dobbo had. I think you quizzed him and said, which one would you rather face? And he preferred to face the Jake Bulls than the Ackerman Bulls. So Akarbo is working in some ways. And I've said that it's because this is the best packs that Johan ever had in any of his coaching jobs.

He's never had two packs like this where you can just keep rolling them out. You don't like that guy? How about Kubis Visa running down your throat? Happy birthday, Kubis, by the way. So it's scary.

There are some really scary carriers. And it looks like to me also that Hanukom came back with a bit of a chip on his shoulder and an edge and something to prove. I really like how strong Eric Lowe is, upper body. Looks like Cam has gone to the same gym. And they're really looking lean, but really heavy and powerful in contact.

That's probably where Glasgow's weak point is. just sheer, you know, let's pick five guys from each team to go out into the alley and fight I pick the Bulls So if they can make it that kind of game I think Bulls win Where they will not win if they will lose if it is kick space chip space counter scramble, defense, having to get back, back, back, I think the Bulls are a forward team, a rolling team, a steamroller team, and they've got to be going forward. That's it. So how would you turn them around? What would Glasgow do to be able to get that, keep them turning around?

fixed space diagonals seeing the the field almost like you know from vertical almost like in some of the car cameras you have now where you can see how to parallel park from above you know if if glasgow can find those little seams they they're really good at that they're really good at running onto a bouncing ball um they sure they defend really well but i mean there's no defending some of the the Bulls' attacks. There's no way to defend around the corners if what's coming at you is Cameron Hanecombe and it's one-on-one, one-on-two. He's going to score. So it's too late. So I think Glasgow would have to sort of just stay on the attack and do it by keeping in the right areas of the field.

Maybe luring and tempting the Bulls into attacking from too deep. Because that's been one of the problems this season. There's too much green light. Vali can overplay sometimes. Always has.

been able to do that sometimes um so happy for him actually that he's playing well and all that but that's the one chink in his armor is that if you give him too much space like finn russell he can sometimes refuse not to take it uh and just kick it back maybe is the best opportunity it's a it's a finals it's finals rugby so you should be kicking the ball back refusing to play in the wrong place I think Glasgow, if they can make it into a chess game, should win. And if the Bulls keep on their steamroller, then they'll win. That's actually quite an interesting thing. You talked about pressure, about Leinster being in so many finals and semifinals and not making it. There's a team in this competition that's got an even worse record when it comes to finals.

And that's the Bulls. I was at Loftus last week and I could see there was a bit of apprehension. That's the right word. They weren't all overconfident and they're going to trounce them or whatever. There's a bit of a apprehension, I suppose, apprehensiveness is maybe the better word.

There's pressure there. And Johan said in his very, very first press conference when we introduced him, and he was asked, what do you see as a successful season? He says, I have to play in the final because we've always played in the final. If I don't play in the final, it will be a failure. I mean, we can't really realistically say that, you know, looking at the season that I've had, especially the second half, but there is pressure there now it's going to be away as well we'll talk about the surface just now but away from home against Glasgow a bit of a bogey team beat us at Loftus the Bulls I mean you know how do they handle that?

Yeah I can see that but I think it's just realism so the Bulls are being realistic when they are not being win-gat because they failed at that hurdle quite a few times so the good news for both the Stormers and the Bulls is there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow they can see they can taste it you know a derby final wouldn't they both love that you know plenty of bull supporters in cape town like you once upon a time and so it'll be a completely packed stadium you know for all the marbles um the template for both is clear as well i mean if there's any team that you know how to beat leinster uh it's it's well known you can study it i would submit the same is true for Glasgow so there is a way to study every defeat Glasgow has been in and find the common threads and they have weaknesses around the ruck post defense you know number one and number two pillar post if you just get your guys to take and to pick and go and go like you know there's a move that Peter Stefftutui does a lot in test rugby where he right when you think it's going to be a phase he picks and he goes and it's almost he almost always finds meters i can see i can imagine in my dreams eye uh cameron doing that uh elrich doing that um kubus visa doing that over and over jeff whoever it is big carriers rubelar is not big but he's uh he's really quick just keep coming keep coming down that middle uh almost bringing back the ghost of pierre spice i think I think Glasgow won't be able to handle that. They don't have stoppers. They don't have true stand in the gap and I'll push you back, stop you guys. They're a scramble defense team and they rely on numbers. So just keep making the numbers game.

Get as many Glasgow guys on the floor and hold them there. If you have to hold them under the ruck, just keep them down by any means necessary. I think there's going to be overlaps then. Classic Bulls rugby, middle, middle, middle, middle wide. And don't go wide too quickly.

Yeah. We talked about the surface just now. This is going to be at Murrayfield. Johan was quite elated to know that they're going to be playing there on a grass surface and not 4G. And that immediately takes one of Glasgow's weapons almost out of the equation.

I'm not saying it's going to be neutralized, but mauls. They're very good at mauls. And Norman explained to us last week, Norman Laker, why it's such a tough task to defend against a maul on a 4G pitch because you can't get studs in the ground, remember. Now it's on a grass pitch. that sort of takes you know the sting out of the one of Glasgow's biggest weapons I suppose and also it suits the Bulls they're used to playing on grass whereas Glasgow is used to playing on a 4G that's their home pitch and everything else how much of an equalizer would that be the fact that they're not playing on a 4G very helpful all of our teams they're not liking the 4G the mixed hybrid turf no matter what kind of varietal you have and there are some turf fields that are really good at having you know just enough natural mixed in with the pellets that it feels good like soft but um late in games um every player reports that you stick when you don't want to you're a bit scared about your ankles your knees um and then um like the forwards hate that because you get on you're on a sled you feel like you have roller skates on and so you're getting pushed back and nowhere to go i think the primary primary uh benefit to being in murray field for the bulls is in the set pieces in the scrum uh it's it's a big stadium just like loftus so line outs have a nice backdrop to throw against when you're the the hooker and you're looking at you know six foot 10 picking up six foot 10 and it's up in the sky what you look at behind you super important and the depth perception um and when it's just blue sky it's actually quite difficult it's like going back to school days and these guys train all the time in loftus the other thing is scrums when you get purchase in the scrum and it's real turf um it's it's more it's easier to manipulate your opponent.

Whereas on 4G, you get a lot of free kicks, a lot of attempted scrums, the referees give up on them. And I think also it doesn't feel like what you're used to as a prop. So I don't know if Wilco is going to be playing this week or not. I think he's fit. But I think he could really monster a guy like Patrick Schickling in the mud and just get stuck in some part of the field where you kind of rip up the grass a little bit and then you can go to work when you're a big heavy.

I think the Bulls' superiority at scrum is also massive in this game. So you're looking at two games where how the referees see the scrums and how we compare the way that those two referees saw the same sort of scrum domination. It's going to be very interesting. Well, Andrew Bryce is the referee for the Bulls game and I quite rate him. I like him.

He's quite clear, he's quite fair. I don't think he gets influenced by the crowd so much. I think he's probably one of the better choices we could have had. Luckily, it's not Andrea Piardi again. Yeah, so we don't talk about referees very much on this pod, and we do, I think, around finals, because it does become more important.

You know, in the end, it takes a lot to be a referee and make a call. It really is. It was a pod I just watched with Ben O'Keefe in it. It was very interesting to see him go through the psychology of reffing the French box game and then immediately England box. And obviously he couldn't do the New Zealand one.

He's a New Zealander. But the idea of getting it right, getting it wrong, wanting the games, wanting it. So the decision process. I had a coffee with Angus Gardner right before the World Cup final. And he was talking about how they decide that.

who gets the appointments. You take out the people that are connected with the countries, and then it's about the error rate. They actually go through, they watch the game and see on 50-50s and on ones that they clearly got wrong, and they go through that kind of rating. So in a way, politics aside, maybe, Andrew Brace has been seen as one of the best referees, one of the two best referees that wasn't eliminated because of affiliation holly too so it's interesting just to see their little world and how that works um brace what i like about brace is uh his communication style i don't think he coaches the players that much holly too i don't think i i'm getting increasingly irritated by the ad hoc um and it's not fair you know that you coach in some cases but you don't coach in other cases at what point do you just stay quiet and then whistle it stop talking about people you know stay off the ball thank you you know but then the next time you don't um i like i like brace because it doesn't do that right our very very first episode and i'm closing the loop here was about south africans rugby players and coaches making it big overseas and we had joan from our first part i don't know if you remember and as luck would have it of the four teams playing in this weekend's semifinals, four South African coaches involved in it. Obviously, two South African teams have South African coaches, but you also have Jacques Nienaber at Leicester, and you've got Franco Schmitt at Glasgow.

That says something. So, you know, how much does that play Errol here in terms of, you know, they know each other. They know each other intimately. You talked about Franco, you know, maybe wanting to get the Bulls job, but there's something to prove there. Johan Akerman has got a lot to prove.

One of his biggest detractors that we know personally is still saying, No, he hasn't played against the proper team or a proper coach yet. So he hasn't proven himself. I mean, let's keep moving the goalposts, people. And the same with John Dobson. Under so much pressure, you know, even though it's Project 2029, it's a year ahead of schedule maybe, you know, like, people inevitably calling for his head.

And I just want to close off with this. I want to ask you this question. Are we getting too close to the teams? And is that maybe affecting our objectivity? Are we not being harsh enough or strict enough?

Or, you know, holding the feet to the fire is one of the quotes I was given to say that we're not doing that anymore? That's a good question. I would feel bad to be, you know, cheeky or say something that was kind of like funny, but, you know, a dig against many of the stormers. That's fair. And I think it's important in life to know your biases.

And I actually announce a lot of times when I'm doing predictions, like don't trust me on the stormers. I'm a fool. Everything else, I'm really good. But I don't think it was really that we've gotten that way. It was always that way.

I've always been blue and white hooped. I ooze it. I secrete it. It's my blood. So it's the same with you.

As we've gotten closer, it's both. We've learned the good and the bad. So it's not just one way. We're just better informed. I think one so one thing was not possible anymore for either of us to do is to think that people don't know whether it's not planning or there's not intricate effort and design.

We know that's true. So anyone who's making those complaints just doesn't know what level of commitment and work ethic is at place in both clubs. And I would imagine most clubs. but I think in particular these two clubs happy, hardworking and with all any group of 50 people 100 people there's going to be rivalries going to be enmities and envies this is normal, it's just life so no one's saying that it's not there but a lot of the doomsday or nightmarish depictions of it, they're just false and also some of the players that people look at and think that they're egotistical or something. I've just, you're going to trust me on this.

It's not true. You know, like it takes a lot of swagger and confidence to be an elite sportsman at the highest level and you have to believe in yourself. But there's a lot of cartoonish depictions of people that suit their narrative. And I haven't found those to be true. In fact, I've found, I've been pleasantly surprised by the humility, hard work, curiosity, and intelligence.

Intelligence, yes. Like off the charts. Yeah, that's the big thing that I also picked up from getting to know these players and coaches, both Stormers and Bulls and everybody else, I suppose. And I've said it now many times, and I'll say it again, it's how intelligent they are. These are not stupid people.

They think about things. So when people start making accusations, I want to climb the walls. And the other thing is, you know, sometimes I get, I specifically get a little bit tetchy when we start, you know, being accused of this kind of a thing. Because people stand on the outside, like people stand on the outside of the rugby teams and they make comments about what we do and what we think without knowing what's going on on our channel, for example. You know, there's the same thing with the rugby team.

When you get inside something, you understand it better. And it changes your perspective a little bit. It doesn't change your objectivity, but it changes your perspective to a degree, I suppose. Yeah, that's it. But we never made that last prediction for the Bulls.

Sorry, I got a bit sidetracked there. I actually think it's going to be a lower scoring game than both of these teams have had. Just, you know, finals nerves, that extra effort on defense, corner flagging, scrambling. I'm kind of feeling like a 24-22 Bulls win. And then over on the other side, I think it's the same.

It's going to be a grim struggle. And I think we eat the hearts out. I think we rip out the remaining joy from Leinster. Fuck them up on their field. And we have a Bulls-Stormers-Derby for the final.

Let's go. A proper one. It's full circle again. That was the very first final as well, if I remember correctly. Exactly.

Awesome, man. What a Lecker pod this was. I enjoyed it. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

Good anniversary pod, I suppose. Cheers. This is the Lecker Rugby Pot. Only on Megaphone Rugby. Thank you.

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