Has the URC Made Ireland Our Real Greatest Rivals? | Pat McCarry

this is the lecker rugby pod only on megaphone rugby welcome back to the lecker rugby pod and pat mccary is back by popular demand how are you not going to do an introduction again we know him by now he's like i said very very popular i'm going to talk about this brooding brewing irish south african rivalry because at the end of the day it looks like it's going to be uh irish or african quarter of uh quarterfinals again welcome back hey thanks very much for having me um yeah Yeah, it's shaping up nicely, isn't it? The little bit of rivalry there. So hopefully we get a few of these kind of South African versus Irish, you know, knockout games against each other. And there's a bit of spice, like the Sharks Munster one last year, a little bit of kind of drama like that. And yeah, that'll really make things heat up there as we get towards the final.

Has it been a year already? I can't believe it. Winkgate, a year ago. Yeah, Winkgate. Yeah, yeah.

We're still not over that one yet. well and you will never will anyway now let's talk about leinster i mean before we talk about leinster let's talk about glasgow because we said it's irish and africa thing but glasgow right at the top of the table and they're probably going to stay there so i mean we're not you know discounting our scottish friends here because you know glasgow is our second favorite team all south africans support glasgow because it's an african connection but uh i'm going to hand it over to arry because he's got a couple questions for you on this irish rivalry oh yeah But if so, if the measure was this, if you said, Pat, if you said in the top eight, as eventually the eight, how many of the coaches and captains of those teams are South African and how many are Irish and how many are Scottish, it's going to be still very Irish and South African. So there is the seeds of a longer rivalry that it has club antecedents, but it takes place on test level. But, you know, there's ammunition to argue forever all year round because of this. I mean, we're really getting drawn into a very strong relationship of love-hate, aren't we?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, definitely. They're like, like even, you know, as soon as the last test match was over there last November, we were looking to see when are they kind of going to meet each other again. and thankfully it's later this year and um you know there's there's all there like and then yeah as we're talking about there some of the other rivalries like you know leinster would find it tough against the likes of the bulls and finally get over that hump and then you had you know munster and sharks as well like so then we had connect i'm sure we'll kind of get on to them and uh even though harry might not want to talk about them much uh kind of kind of heading down and kind of doing a number as well then we have leinster sending their up-and-comers almost down to get christened and baptized uh down in south africa and smashed around the place as their kind of early learning center like so uh yeah there's loads of narratives coming up and it's yeah like i i grew up and you know getting up early to watch some of those super rugby games and super 10 and super 12 and and yeah you'd always be jealous of the rivalry between the south africans and the new zealand sides as well so and we're getting there like you know as the years go on hopefully that rivalry will kind of grow even more and it's one of those rivalries that we earn a little bit respect from each other by taking lumps out of each other too. Yeah, I think the seeds of rivalry are interesting.

Obviously in leagues, you have some ability to create them, but normally the best rivalries are organic and they normally are between neighbors, to be honest. You know, the fact that Leinster and Munster have such a juicy rivalry, Stormers and Bulls goes way back, you know, to the 1930s. And there's perceived grievance, that's what it is. You know, you can, you know, Munster coming and beating the Stormers or, you know, Lens to doing it to the Bulls. There's scores to settle.

Rossi talked about it. Redemption or, you know, rectification or whatever. It starts to almost sound theological. And I know from the Irish side, this is my impression. Maybe I'm wrong.

And I just feel like both of us are awkward boxers on banter. Like you can think you've landed a good one on an Irishman. and then he'll, if it really landed, what he'll do is he'll say, no, you've just offended the saint so-and-so who died in 1844. And you're like, fuck it, man, I wasn't trying to offend your ancestors by mispronouncing whatever you were eating. And so, and then South Africans have a slippery way as well because we can go into sort of that, you know, same shell in some ways.

And also we're very blunt sometimes. So maybe we overstep. I did that to Connacht. So how's it going to work? You know, what is this thing going to look like?

What is this crazy thing going to look like? yeah but it is that kind of thing isn't it where um and it's only since that rivalry has kind of grown maybe since if you go back to um like it's funny to stuff that it's kind of we celebrate here in ireland and then that it's would be kind of like chastised or kind of like i can't believe you know that that's what i was given i'd kind of forgotten all about uh ronan ogara taking a quick tap penalty uh when the set in the box were kind of we haven't we haven't forgotten that yeah yeah Thank you for reminding me. I had forgotten about it, but now it's right back in my age again. Shit, man. Sorry.

In my head, it was just kind of like that he was being smart and he did this thing. And then, like, I just saw a South African kind of going, I'll never forget about this. And I was like, I'd watched it back. I was like, yeah, he kind of, like, took the piss there, really. And so maybe from that moment, that was the genesis of this kind of new, you know, rivalry.

And then there was maybe a few years even before that, it was when Ireland went over and the South African Dion O'Connor kind of, you know, of that kind of South African Irish links that he had. And there was the, the, the, the, the slug fest when they kind of played against each other in the late nineties. And so it's been brewing up for the last kind of, you know, 20, 20, 25, 30 years. Like, so, and, and now we have the clubs kind of sprinkling their little bit of spice into it as well. So, but I, yeah, only in the last while, like you kind of, like I, some, some people would kind of talk about Welsh rugby Twitter or South African rugby Twitter.

And if you kind of, as, as kind of Harry said, you kind of offend an Irishman by kind of, you know saying something about his ancestors or the lands that they stood on or walking in the door the wrong way or or anything like that or or as rory mcelroy even did kind of slagging irish food as well uh he's probably not allowed to come home now after doing that um but yeah like then at the same time like if you say something and it's an african all of a sudden you say the wrong thing it's that african rugby twitter comes after you and gets you as well and um sometimes you have to just tap out just don't don't reply anymore just take a break for two or three days two or months like isn't it a bit of love you know you only get to like when you really are uh sledging as the aussie would say your brother it's the it's delightful like your best friend you're roasting each other all day long i think we're getting there ulster has had so many safas in and about monsters at rossi you know the number one safa and so many other people i mean it's it's good and you know rg doing his thing you know the ergie sneman-esque express going from maybe he goes to the maybe goes to Connacht next maybe he goes to Ulster next we we know each other finally we finally know each other stuff that we can bring up there's you know and the fluttering wounded drop goal that goes over by Frawley that still unknifes me in the soul you know we finally get there isn't it cool I mean I don't know like I think sport needs more yeah yeah that was it and like you like I mentioned the kind of Kiwis there as well like I always remember like going and being lucky enough to kind of do a couple of foreign tours and you know you talk to the likes of like Retallick or Nanu and you would say to them like who like what Irish players are you thinking about playing and they'd be like uh Brian O'Driscoll and you'd say oh he's retired and they'd be like oh yeah lots of them like yeah like and you'd be like these guys don't respect us because we haven't done it and it's only when you start kind of taking a few scalps every now and then that they respect you like and that's it like that's why it feels maybe you know as an Irish kind of um you know rugby supporters as well that were kind of uh i sometimes talk about us being at the top table and getting kicked off the top table and we're bouncing back and forth you know like but uh yeah it's only kind of when there's increased lag and you know that you'd be ignored if you weren't doing anything like you know um if you're like a welsh rugby supporter right now and you're kind of nipping at the heels you might just get ignored but uh ireland's kind of there and their teams and clubs and test teams are kind of uh making a bit of a difference like so yeah it's good to see it's great to see i was i was well everybody knows and everybody needs darkness i spent a week at the bulls and one of the things i heard there was and i'm going to talk about this in very general terms but um that semi-final against leinster the first season remember seven six i think the the score was and three of the bulls players were very specifically instructed the only thing you do today is you the living daylights out of johnny sexton and he ended up running away from them all the time so there's a lot of rivalry going and it was actually a plan i never knew that i mean what it leads to feel like these upstarts from down south pitching up there and winning a semi-final in in in ireland i mean that that must have been as part of the seeds of this growing rivalry yeah yeah and that was kind of um it wasn't expected it was like kind of um you know like a superhero movie where like you defeat the main villain and all of a sudden some guy comes out of the shadows and just like you know hits you with a frying pan and and you're like who's this like you know and they unmasked themselves like and uh you know springbok jersey underneath or something like that but um and it was kind of like that because um and then the big fear was almost like that because because i suppose we added the kind of like the rainbow cup and the pro 14 and you know we'd kind of had the likes of the cheetahs and kind of like they were almost kind of facsimiles of of proper south african sides and and now all of a sudden you had the real deal coming to town and coming to the home of the best team and walking away with a win and and it was like oh here we go like there's uh there's you know it's a new game in town as well and it's been great for for the united rugby championship because now there's like some heavyweights there and like it's a shame like the the south african sides can't play all their big boys all the time but you know that when you go and tour there you're gonna have to have some hell of a kind of few weeks to kind of get out of there with like even one win like so uh they can be kind of chastening experiences for some sides as leinster found at the start of the season and um you know it's very easy to lose 60 70 points you know like uh so they're they're tough kind of goings as well but yeah that was it and the only thing that's kind of surprised me now so far is that um and it is tough on them and you can kind of you have to acknowledge that but that is that african side hasn't really kind of gone super deep in the in the champions cup then as well like because you know my thinking at the time when Leinster kept getting to these finals was one of these years the South Africans are going to you know get a growl get a love for this kind of competition and you know we're going to be screwed then like so let's win while we can I suppose it was my thinking yeah it's incremental though there was progress in the sense that it came down to final moments and it was close but also it's it's very difficult to imagine it because an old established block is really a liability to have in the team so they're mostly going to be shipped off and then at suitable times in their career we're on north here right now going to japan um and so i think it doesn't import any special need you know fit in perfect tool kit kind of uh you know geordie barrett types so difficult to imagine but you know turning to the irk it's been really a fascinating season and it occurs to me we should probably just work through your provinces one by one and we'll start with leinster because you know box office they've had a funny old season like you say starting out terrible point pants pulled down that but they're built for the end they're built for knockouts now they they are literally sitting looking there going we could do a double we're one of the few teams that could do a double and who who would bet against who would bet a lot against that is what i guess my question yeah yeah like yeah in terms of that they're going for the double they're just lucky that they're over a good side of the draw in the Champions Cup as well where the rest of the boys are slicing each other's legs off and if by chance somehow Bordeaux can fall before they get to the final you'd be very confident but yeah, that's kind of worked out well for them people up here kind of close to us are kind of complaining again that Leinster have got a home Aviva semi-final again and that wouldn't have happened if Glasgow had won they got beaten by Toulon as well so so it's kind of the cards have fallen in Enster's favor again but so very much in the show for that and and that that is it yeah they're it's a very tough season for them like you could even see that like a lot of their players were I don't know it's like they're only kind of they're only starting to play their first proper games around kind of you know end of October and so they were kind of really getting fed into the team they've really had to you know dip into the academy and younger you know younger lads and uh like leo cullen was kind of saying that as well after i think i was lucky enough i think bumped into like you you griffin there he was um at that kind of scarlet's game when leinster won and and leo was kind of at that we were both at that press conference and leo cullen was saying like you know yeah like it's we're only now getting hold of our proper team like you know and exactly yeah and it's almost like so where do you think you're at and he's like i'll tell you in a couple of weeks where we're at because now it's finally like he's got all the toys he can start piecing them together and and playing with them now and and you can even see there they went up to ulster there last weekend and like they only had three starters from the champions cup but yet they still had you know ring rose henshaw you know uh just ready-made kind of like luke mcgrath sam prendergaast as well like and these are guys that weren't even featuring like so um yeah it's it's it's they're finally kind of getting going they have all their big boys coming back. And now it's like, as you said, Harry, like now we'll know how they're built for the run-in and they get everybody fit and primed for the run And the only problem is they very very short of loose heads at the moment So much so that they have to go back and get one of their old guys ed burn back from cardiff and just because it's just anybody who uh i don't know there's some kind of there's a curse on loose heads at lencer this season so um so they've they've had to kind of go get ed burn back he kind of played against ulcer the other night but they're other than that they're just they're they're stocked they're fully loaded and they're ready to kind of run for these last few weeks of the season would be the least funny outcome if they were to repeat. And also, because they're so good, so loaded, there's a lot of sort of lens to hatred. And it's not even just from outside of Ireland, right? There's plenty from inside of Ireland.

And never less than anything or whatever their tagline is, is stuff people like to mock. But on the other hand, it would feed the rivalry because rivalries also feed off of one team doing really well for a while so that everyone's obsessed with destroying them. You know, that's part of rivalry, isn't it? Yeah, that's it. Like, I have a friend who's like a big, you know, like soccer fan and he loves like Manchester United, but he was talking about like in the Champions League as well.

He prefers when the big teams that have won all of them win again because he's like, you don't want some outsiders coming in and kind of like cheapening the competition by winning it. Like, you don't want Lyon to win it one year. We want Real Madrid, we want Ajax, we want Bayern Munich, you know Juventus, Liverpool, Man United and we want that like because it means more when it's just the big dogs kind of fighting over it so and Leinster are kind of one of them like so and that's it you guys haven't even like I say you guys like being South African and coming up and seeing this like there's a bit of Leinster but you haven't seen them at their full swagger yet like you know we can kind of we can get even cockier we can get even kind of more braggadocious as well like and really start playing it around the place so we can get more obnoxious and come up with even worse kind of phrases. Yeah, but it feeds into dynastic duels, right? Dynasties are the thing of sports, and I think you're right.

Everyone studied it. You've got to have a Liverpool and a Man U, and you've got to, you know, the Celtics and the Lakers. Those things build rivalries because they're forever revenges. So talk us through the one current before we go to other provinces. There's the current of who was the proper 10?

you know the story of sam it's sort of a sad story in some ways and a cautionary tale of elevating people before they're ready yeah yeah and funnily enough harry byrne a guy who was elevated before he was ready has now benefited from this um so he's he's the top man now at leinster as well because harry byrne back in 2021 got jumped ahead of the queue and got a few games for Ireland in a kind of summer test series. And they played Japan and USA. And it was like, what about Ross, his older brother? What about, you know, Frawley? What about this guy?

And it was like, no, Harry Burns, the man. And then he got injuries, you know, riddled, kind of confidence, took a hit. He just got dumped. And now he's kind of climbed himself back, you know, like Bain climbed out of the big, huge hole and, you know, got fresh daylight on his face. But for Sam, he's kind of experienced in that now.

Like he had a tough Six Nations, kind of got dropped without sight then for the last three games uh came back played a couple of games for for leinster but the confidence wasn't back like he just took such a shellacking like you know he's still only a young man like and um he was kind of seen as like i suppose the embodiment of this kind of leinster player has been fast-tracked to the international team and skipped ahead of other players from other provinces so like he was the unfortunate poster boy of that in the eyes of many people and um you know he kind of i think jack crowley is back where he belongs uh he's still like not 100 of a perfect player but like he probably never should have been kind of dropped from that 10 jersey from ireland uh prendergar should have been his apprentice and got the odd start every now and then but now we're in the situation where prendergar isn't even making champions cup squads like and and you know fraud here on frowley he's heading to connacht in the summer is kind of backing up on the bench now as well so um so it's tough for him but at the weekend at least it was a a chink of light um sam started against ulster got man of the match as well um and kind of you know had a really good game score to try he's uh he's all the talk over here is like he's changed his position on the kicking tee he's not doing this anymore it's much more upright so uh he's taking a bit of advice on board had a good kicking game against ulster too so So that might make a difference. But for now, yeah, Harry Byrne is the main man. And there's almost like no debate at the moment. They've picked their horse. They're backing Harry Byrne for the rest of the season.

And he's doing well. He's just solid. Like, yeah, like he's not doing anything too flashy, but he's doing the job and kind of he's good off the tee as well. So that's it. Now, again, who knows?

There could be an injury or anything could get, you know, tossed against a fan and blitzed. But for now, Harry Byrne is the man. and yeah, Leinster are starting to kind of get motoring here a little bit. I think they got 92 points in their two Champions Cup games, 13 tries. So, you know, people are expecting perfection from them, but they're bubbling.

It's bubbling to the surface, hopefully. You know, people are very rude nowadays on social media and there's nothing that brings out more rude speech in rugby fans than 10 debates. The debates of fly-off are just, I don't know, it's time immemorial. It's been going on. it's just much more accessible now and it's hard to tell a guy who's 22 23 24 to not look at social media they live online and it's how they do their business and so forth and and date and marry and all that so you know we've we've had recently um john dobson a coach for the storm has come out and talk about some of that the effect on a guy like manny lubock or sasha feinberg and gomo zulu is quite immense and you know they have people around them helping them but did any of that come did that happen with sam prendergost in the jack crowley debate or was am i missing something oh yeah yeah it got um yeah it was pretty um and pretty one-sided like there wouldn't have been a lot of kind of like uh animus against kind of jack crowley it would have been like it might be kind of more technical stuff like he's flawed or he you know his kicking stats off the tee aren't great or something but for prender gassik yeah it seemed to get very personal like you know like and who does this guy think he is and uh can't defend for anything and there'd be kind of clips that would be you know put together like you know you can go and find any clip in a game of somebody kind of uh making a mistake or something there'd be compilation clips you know put together and it was like look how bad this guy is or doing a tackle in slow motion and seeing how bad it was going so um yeah you just hope for his sake that that he wasn't on it you know like but then and I think even I spoke to I remember speaking to Sam I think last last summer and he was kind of saying like even if you're avoiding it, somebody will say, oh, listen, don't worry about that article that that person wrote or listen, don't worry about that clip that's gone viral.

And you'll be like, you'll be like, what clip is this? Thanks for reminding me. yeah so uh yeah like i think funnily enough i think dan bigger was speaking about it um during the six nations and he just said um the best thing he ever did was um just not have social media because he said he remembers getting onto a team bus and just seeing all of his teammates were just immediately on their phones checking ratings and going on to social media and he just said from from that moment onwards i just deleted everything i had and and i didn't bother with it again. I think he's back on it now that he has his own podcast to sell and promote, but as a player, he made the wise choice and stayed away. Yeah.

Well, I was going to say, it's almost like the old boxers. Remember that we go to camp and we go to the mountains and no women, no suites, no access to the outside world. And it was really important in high performance. And perhaps that's the way to do it is to say there are portions of the season where blackout, I'm just not going to look at stuff because it doesn't do you any good. I was hearing this podcast by a guy who wrote for the New York Times, David Brooks.

And he got this dream job, columnist for the New York Times. It was the pinnacle for journalists for him. And he said, I was depressed for the first six months because I read the comments. And he said, readers are really good at finding the true parts of your personality that are deficient. And you weren't mad at the falsity.

You were actually mad at the truth. I don't know. it's just tough nowadays so i want to dwell on it but here's a better moment we're not going to go to the next province being monster we're going to ulster talk to me about ulster because they're the second best yeah yeah and what is it um they're yeah and it's great to see like and it's kind of like i think we yeah we will get to connect as well but at the start of the season i was looking at just the depth of squads and i was kind of thinking ulster and connect are really going to both struggle and no matter what talk you know it's always positive talk at the start of the season and Ulster were kind of saying we're building and this is going great and you're just like yeah all right good well let's see how that goes like but uh yeah they started really well like Richie Murphy he got a good reputation like was at Leinster for a while in in with Ireland and to took over the Irish under 20s and led a couple of teams to Grand Slam wins so like kind of had this great reputation of getting a lot out of young players so Ulster went and kind of got him and yeah that first season was all about just kind of um you know restoring a bit of pride making kind of Ravenhill tough kind of home venue to come and play at again and there was signs that they were getting there but then this season they've probably been playing some of the best attacking rugby I was looking at some of the URC stats for the season so far, I think Zach Ward has got the most metres gained from any player this season and Jacob Stockdale has the most defenders beaten they're doing lovely like Mark Sexton, Johnny Sexton's brother is kind of the attack coach there as well and so lovely attacking kind of phases as well. So it's all coming together for them. And then they started kind of having a few, you know, of the homegrown lads were starting to do well.

Some of their young props were kind of doing good and just started piecing together results, doing well in the Challenge Cup as well. So yeah, positivity kind of back there. I think what's probably helped as well is Rory Best, the kind of former Ulster and Ireland captain. He's kind of in now as one of, kind of an executive position there as well. knows a lot of people they're getting kind of different brands on boards new sponsorship deals for the stadium like so um yeah it's looking a bit more positive up there like the like i'd be in touch with like you know steven ferris a good bit and darren cave and uh like former players that kind of played in the 2000s and uh yeah like you'd often kind of get on and ask them how they're doing and 30 minutes later they'd still be complaining about ulster like or bemoaning what was going on but now you might talk to them and they're a lot more positive like so so so people on the ground are again like or you know a few folks on twitter and um yeah they'll just be a lot more kind of upbeat about how they're going and the only shame for them there at the weekend was um just kind of losing that home game to leinster and kind of actually getting pumped for the first 50 55 minutes and um that might cause you to have some doubts but uh like they're they're well on course if they can kind of maybe get two wins out of those final games they might get themselves like a you know handy enough kind of uh draws for the knockout stages there as well so yeah a lot more positivity up at ulster and yeah deservedly mentioned second as well i love actually talking to ulsterman there first of all i enjoy the accent for some reason and it's uh it's quirky i like the crime novel drama things they have set in belfast there's been two guys uh ruan pinar was basically a key to the city kind of guy, still a bedrock.

And then nowadays, I saw that Werner Koch has been really loved by the locals and he and his wife or partner loves them. And so it's interesting because a lot of people inside Ireland kind of should talk that area, but then you see sometimes there's a love affair with people who are newcomers. What's the story there? How does it work? Yeah, well, there's a lot of kind of, even up in that area, like Belfast, and I suppose it's all changed, and there's a lot of development being made in the last 10, 15 years.

You go up to Belfast now, and there's so much building going on, and high-rises, and supermarkets, and the Titanic is a big visitor centre as well. They have an ice hockey team on the go. Yeah, a lot more positivity up there and embracing arts and culture. kneecap are kind of like uh you know renowned around the world for their kind of like the the kind of rap music and mixing irish with it so uh kind of like a vibrant young kind of like young people are kind of starting to have their voices heard um like dairy girls this kind of popular kind of show that was picked up on netflix and um so yeah loads kind of going for them as well and and yeah some of that positivity could be kind of rubbing off on them as well uh and they yeah they often would kind of think they'd be got forgotten for so many years and maybe during like you know what we call the troubles like you know when there was a kind of the you know all the kind of the massive you know civil unrest as well you know people in the south would just be like they're all mad feckers up there let's lead them to it like you know but you know there's open borders now there's back and forth a lot more irish people will now go on holiday or go for weekends away up up to northern ireland as well like so and then you have some lovely parts of the world up there if you do get up and go see it like um up around the kind of north coast and the causeway and um yeah go visit Derry and stuff like that as well some some lovely places so uh yeah just just a bit more positivity around the place because for so long it was negative and younger people are starting to have you know have their voices heard as well and yeah maybe in a way that's kind of filtering across into into rugby as well but they they they always did seem to be a more laid-back province even when I used to deal with them kind of doing media like they always seem to be a bit more like yeah you know let give it a go like you know and um and that it but at least yeah during that kind of the golden period they had there when they got to the the heineken cup final like when they played leinster in 2012 like there was the core of that team was very much south african as well like and uh muller and um ter blanche and kind of uh good few of the boys and a foe well a foe uh the kiwi in there as well but yeah very much a south african spy in there as well so uh yeah it's great to kind of see them doing well and kind of and it's what they kind of need is like younger players like so james mcnabney david mccann nathan doke kind of coming up and that's been happening recently so that's great to see very impressed by nathan doke looks like a proper player is the titanic was that launched there built there what's the connection with belfast yeah which is a strange thing to kind of uh you know champion and be proud of like we're we built the biggest boat in the world that sank on its maiden voyage. I'm sure they kind of probably blamed outside influences.

Or it was fine when it left. I don't know what happened on the way. What'd you do to my boat? So let's cross then. I guess we'll go all the way to the west.

Just personally, I would say if anyone hasn't gone to Ireland and wants to start somewhere, you don't have to start in all the places everyone else does. Go west. it is unbelievable you know to go to Galloway it's got an amazing art scene it's beautiful it's a bit less busy places like Connemara are wonderful to play golf in or hike there's the Aran Islands you know incredible cliffs the Mohair but it's just nice to see Connacht do something it wasn't so nice for me this last weekend and it was what I tried to understand and portray maybe was this is the best day in Galwegian rugby, counterposed, plopped on top of the worst week of Western Province Stormers rugby, you know, in terms of sadness, personal sadness, you know, just a heavy feeling. But then you couldn't help but look at the boys on the pitch at the final whistle. And what an achievement.

So talk us through Connacht, what's going on in the West. Yeah, yeah, and that was another one. like I went to, so for years they had the sports ground and there's a famous story that Bundyaki would tell that when he arrived at, in Galway and was brought out to the sports ground, he said like, why am I being brought to a dog track? Like what's going on here? Like, and that there is like a kind of greyhound track that runs around the outside of the, of the, of the pitch.

So he's like, what is going on here? Like, and Pat Lamb kind of came in and, you know he during his period like Eric Elwood like a club legend was kind of took over as a management for a while I think they went on it was like a record run of like maybe Connacht fans will probably correct me in the comments but I think it was something epic like 16 straight defeats and they couldn't buy a win at one stage and then eventually Pat Lamb came in and started kind of really going out and embracing all of Connacht like not just Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim and kind of saying, you know, this is a wider audience we can tap into and he started playing this lovely kind of running, like we're going to run it from everywhere in the pitch as well and that changed everything, like the biggest shock ever was like in 2016 when they, you know, won the Pro 12 and beat Leinster over in Murrayfield as well, like and then it was a big kind of positivity at the time and it was like, let's build on this, we're going to be in the Champions Cup, Pat lamb was bringing out these plans of this new stadium he wanted to build and bring 20 000 people and 25 000 people to every game and then when he left there seemed to be a big dip then some of the players kind of moved on as well and you're like they didn't take advantage of that opportunity and it's taken a long time to kind of claw themselves back um like kieran keen was in for a while andy friends and the aussie kind of uh he came in and injected a bit of positivity around the place uh but they still were kind of losing too many games and then stewart lancaster like this huge appointment came in and like at the talk like at the time was that Stuart Lancaster was going to go be the Aussie head coach like and then the IRFU kind of got in touch with him and kind of said um well like you know like what a sales pitch like you know how about you know Australia is nice and all but have you heard of uh this dog track we have here in Galway like you know and we have big plans for the future like um so Lancaster came in but he I'd say he's made some promises like you come here you kind of rattle some cages and get some big wins and if Andy Farrell moves on you'll be in the mix for for this Ireland job as well and and then so he didn't have much of a chance to get many transfers done or like trades because he came in late in the day but next season they've got Will Connors and Kieran Frawley coming from from Leinster as well there's another few players that'll be coming in and then they've kind of just really invested like in youths so like you could even see at the weekend like Sean Naughton John Devine, Hugh Gavin Harry West were all kind of playing against the Stormers, all these guys in their early 20s and yeah, Lancaster is such a kind of intense kind of coach that kind of drills them and drills them and does phase phase phase that they all love him but he's kind of like this obsessive, you know like a lot of these best coaches are, like these absolute mad men and you kind of just obsess over the finer details but it's infectious in a way, it took him a couple of months to get going into the season but uh yeah now i think they've won seven of their past eight games um i think somebody i was on a call there with them today and um john muldoon one of their former captains is a forwards coach now and they said to him do you know the last time you won six league games in a row you won the league that season as well like so um you know there's a a good portent for the future but yeah really um really grown for them out there and And they're in the mix anyway, like, you know, but there will be a team that a lot of teams would be, you know, maybe looking to avoid if they do get into those URC playoffs, I'll say. Yeah, they have a red hot go on phase play. They're good clean on the carry clean. Definitely well coached, but also tough.

And, you know, Stuart Lancaster is a tough boy from the borders area between Scotland and England and still looks like he could play probably. on something along. And they came in with a mission, which was, obviously, they honored the memory of Chippy Solomon, and they, as someone said, Gráinne, who's going to be on our pod next week, said, no one does death like Irish people. And there's something really magically true about that. And it was sincere and genuine.

It wasn't just a token. It was heartfelt. But they also, at the same time, came in to rumble on the actual game, on the pitch, which is fair enough. That's rugby. There's no whining, there's no crying.

On the rugby side, it was more just a loss of a special human being that we all love so much. It echoes, you know, in some ways of Axel Foley, you know, who you did a brilliant play on. So, yeah, there's something, I think you've nailed it. No one wants to meet them in the playoffs because you don't know what you're going to get, but you know it's going to be hard, and they're going to make you work for it, right? So speaking of Munster, let's go across to them.

And this is the disappointment so far, which is a big-name coach, you know, from the Chiefs in New Zealand. Says all the right things, you know, has always had really tough teams to play, and it just hasn't really come to fruition. Now, that being said, they're in the picture. But, you know, what do you think has not fired this year for Munster? Yeah, it's an interesting one.

Like, to go back even, yeah, we were talking at the start about the rivalries that were growing and you know you had Munster's famous kind of run to you know title you know success in the URC in in 2023 where they kind of went and they were the road warriors and they went to beat Glasgow and you know they beat Leinster went to South Africa won a semi-final and a final and and then you were like a lot of young guys in that team were like John Hodnett and Alex Kendlin was around and you were thinking this is the start of something new like you know because the older guys like O'Mahony, Archer, like Kilcoyne, they weren't getting any younger and but this would be the new group that would kick on and the shame has been in the three years since hasn't really like a lot of those guys that won the league haven't even been capped for Ireland like or if they have been capped it's kind of being at a you know maybe playing a Fiji or something like that they haven't you know been in the Six Nations as well so so that's been a shame that that younger generation hasn't exactly kicked on and you had Graeme Roundtree was kind of won the league with them then kind of you know moved on like uh you know not so long ago but then they recruited well like Munster I suppose like even there like I was talking to Alex Nankovil a few weeks ago and he was saying like Munster are kind of well renowned like in the likes of Africa and New Zealand as well like they're they're well known you know historic kind of club as well they've got a great reputation like Nankovil was talking about playing with Paul O'Connell and Ronan O'Gara on Rugby 08 on the PlayStation, like, you know, and so they have that going from, so they're able to recruit well sometimes, but it's like are they doing enough with bringing younger players up through the system as well, and I think it was mentioned there recently that they haven't had a home-produced prop in the last decade, like so they're getting their props from outside, and that's almost unheard of, like, you know, like imagine if that was in South Africa, like you weren't producing home props, like there'd be government inquiries about it as well like you know there'd be tribunals like you know uh people out kind of on street corners like you know so so they're having a few issues like that um as well like so so that's a that's a big problem and then there just seems to be internal kind of rifts within the kind of province and um you know there's always been that cork limerick kind of pull as well like and um you know even connor murray like the kind of legendary scrum half like kind of you know even kind of got the captain the lions as well like he retired there like a season ago but he he had a book out and he was just saying like he hated some of their recruitments and he said he wasn't the only one like he said ask many of the senior players over the years and they would say that they recruited so poorly um over the years as well like so uh i think that's been a bit of a problem they probably paid a lot of money and like sniman is kind of it's harsh but that's a good example of like doing like a shed load of cash for somebody and he just didn't work out the the famous one a couple of decades before that would have been Christian Cullen like when he got lured to Munster and didn't do it but yeah a lot more kind of recent examples of guys that they were instead of investing in kind of homegrown talent they were paying to you know for a sticky plaster and it wasn't working as well so yeah there's been I think it's one of these things where again like going back to football as well it's like the big team like Manchester United are finding it hard to kind of there's so much kind of strife and infighting in the background that even when Clayton Macmillan comes in and they win four or five games at the start of the season, the negativity just kind of pulls them down as well in the background. So, um, yeah, real shame. And, and, uh, but it's only just into, just to throw in one final point about Munster. It's like, um, like Brendan Fanning, like the kind of, the well-known kind of Irish rugby writer kind of, um, he was talking about it on the radio here in Ireland yesterday. And he was saying that like rugby was the number one sport in Limerick for, you know, good few years, especially when they're winning Heineken Cups.

But then hurling then, there's a huge investment in hurling. And then, like, I think Limerick or, like, the local, like, Limerick won five All-Irelands in a row hurling championships. Like, so when he was saying, he was looking at that Limerick team saying, him, him, and him would all be great for Munster. Like, but now they're hurlers. Like, so a little bit of everything.

And it's all kind of, you know, we talk about in rugby, 1% and 2% makes a difference. like and it's all adding up for uh for negative results for a monster unfortunately i love that about rugby we always we isolate things and we say you know it's one or two percent it's fine margins and then you try to analyze loss or a win you say it's just that little thing and people go no it couldn't be that has to be something bigger yeah it really is that fine um so sort of like um i think envia you've done sort of a a calculation of who you think might be in the final four mine was horribly wrong. I had estimated that Connacht would get nothing else and Ulster would get nothing else and so I have all these new enemies over there. I love you all my frenemies. So how do you see it all shaping out?

What did you finally come out with with your objective standards? Yeah, highly empirical and completely objective. I've got you know, I've got Monster at 8 and Connacht at 6. That's the matter of interest. and it and it it semi uh quarterfinals player like this uh glasgow monster leinster lions bulls and then uh stormers ulster home game obviously mentioned first and then semis glasgow stormers and links the bulls and then i went all in south african cap on you know all the way and i said bulls is a stormer at last this final i mean we're gonna win both those over away games no worries we're gonna complain yeah in south africa but you do have all four irish provinces than in is what you're saying i do yeah okay is that what you see how you see it back yeah like like um they're having a good season but like maybe i was looking at someone like cardiff might be a little bit kind of susceptible to you know that they might slip out of it like it'll be a very strange season where i think 48 points would have got you qualified in the past but now 48 might like 50 you might need 50 or something to kind of get there so although it's one of what is 53 sorry Yeah, so maybe Cardiff might go out as well.

But then Connacht don't have easy fixtures. I think they got lines Lines Monster Edinburgh Yeah Edinburgh away And then hopefully they be hoping edinburgh on the beach already like and although you wouldn want to go to any scottish beaches like uh and then right now but right now playing the lions is no bargain it's a it's a tough one yeah yeah that's even like the again for some you know the the lions is kind of huge like success story this season as well haven't they like they've kind of um they've they've really kind of pulled the results together and and sometimes the team that even though you can see them they're high up on the table i'd still sometimes have to do a double take on they win again or did they do like i keep waiting for that kind of balloon to burst but um but yeah they're having a great season but yeah imagine the reward at the end of it they'd hate if they got leinster at the end of all that in the in the quarterfinal like what my biggest fear is bulls the storm has dominated the usc and then the bloody lions come from behind and win the thing that would be the worst day of my life i tell you it's interesting also you can do these comparisons you know like for a lot of people in sarkis say like stormers are like leinster getting all the privilege and sort of the press you know and then you know heartland would be bulls and monster and but you could argue that monster and sharks have some comparisons and then ulster compared to the sharks a lot of times with sharks players as well but then you get to the conic lions thing and we had ringo ryan low i don't know if you follow him but oh yeah yeah he was like yeah we kind of like except we don't play in bad weather we don't know how we cannot play in a dog track but there's something about about both teams that is somewhat similar and that no one really believes you know i found it hard to believe in the conax story and then here i am you know you know i'm the victim of it um for a long time we've been saying uh are the lions really are they really there and then lo and behold then the harry index this week they made number 10. yeah highly controversial for mvia who thinks that the bulls are way better yeah i mean i just grabbed my what you call it my fan and I waved away because I couldn't believe what my eyes were telling me. The Bulls nowhere and the Lions are thin. It's the beauty of a team.

There's something about the Lions that they play exactly. They know exactly that they all know how they want to play. They treat kick returns like set pieces. They're all lined up and ready to run in their trams and fling the ball around. They have a proper goal kicker who makes his goals.

I mean, doesn't it seem a bit like you don't want to run into the Lions either? yeah yeah well that's like i'd say for a lot of you know even irish supporters that we've seen kind of beaten stormers at the weekend they'll think oh yeah now they'll just follow it up by beating lions then as well but this could even be the tougher game for them this weekend yeah yeah and they're ultra fit you know if you have an snc based coach which is cash van rooyen you know one thing is for sure they're not going to be the unfit team you know they're not going to be the heralded uh craven week superstars but they are definitely on a high felt gonna give you a ragged time of it. So anyway, I think there's arguments to be made and the beautiful thing is we're about to see what happens. Just talk to me a little bit about some of the aftermath of the Six Nations. What's everyone feel about there?

Who made the biggest gains in the Irish firmament besides Stuart McCloskey that we've all heard about to the nth degree? yeah yeah it was yeah mccloskey's kind of uh the main man there now again the no spring chicken like so many irish players but um he's he's kind of timed his run nicely like and um that's what you could actually say yeah he's kind of uh he's he hasn't had too many games now like so now he's kind of like uh he's he's almost like he's a young version of a 33 year old as well like so um but yeah like rob balacoon um brilliant like it was just great to like people have said it for a a while um but it's great to see pace out on the wing again like and a couple of the tries that he scored like if they had went to you know like no nothing against them but like uh like a mac hansen or a kind of calvin nash or jimmy o'brien they might not be in scores like he just had that pace to just burn people on the outside as well and um so he did fantastically well um and then yeah like the really interesting to see like another one like they're all kind of ulster guys as well but Tom O'Toole, who has been highly spoken of for so many years, kind of born, you know, I think the family kind of were in Australia for a few years, headed over to Ireland. And he was like Willie Anderson, like the kind of Irish legend, kind of was coached at the Ulster Academy for so many years. Like he would have said it to me five or six years ago, keep an eye out for this guy. He's going to be great.

He'll be a test player. Like he'll be a regular. So you were waiting and waiting, but he always seemed to have what you call like brain fades. like he'd do something silly in a game or like a silly penalty or he'd switch off it like you know with a rook or something and um you know didn't seem to kind of have that you know elite mentality but all of a sudden he got thrown in and as a loose head then you know rather than a tight head and and kind of held his own like so so that's kind of um you know really kind of opened things up as well so those those ulster guys all did really well for themselves um yeah as well and And then, yeah, someone like it's been interesting to kind of see just Caelan Doris getting shifted around. They're trying them a little bit more at open side to kind of just, I suppose, to give themselves another option, apart from van der Fleer there as well.

And then the other one, we didn't see enough of them, or we kind of would have liked to have seen a bit more of someone like Edwin and Dogbo. But they kind of were, they did well, actually. Like Farrell did really well there. Like in retrospect, they were kind of giving two or three guys a chance in nearly every game, bringing them in for luck. and by the end of it, they'd been kind of, I think they said, 12 players that had never played in the Six Nations before all of a sudden had experience.

So the shame was that France game at the start of it all. But I did see, I think Mack Hansen was on one of the Aussie podcasts and he was saying, yeah, people were asking, like St. Andy Farrell should go. And I was saying, I don't think anyone from, apart from maybe a mad person on social media, I don't think any of the Irish media were saying Andy Farrell should go. uh you know like no i don't i i couldn't find the clip i couldn't find the article like you know um but uh yeah there was a bit of like criticism saying um i don't know like has he been around for too long or like let him go on till the world cup and then get a fresh voice in or something like that but now having it looks like he's been able to regenerate the side a little bit and now there's a bit more positivity and does even talk about you know just give him a contract get him signed up for the next World Cup almost like we'll be here in another 12 years looking droopier I'm going to be talking about Razzi and Andy Farrell I'm trying to do my maths here the 2037 World Cup or something like that can Ireland get past the quarterfinal stages and can the Springboks win 7 World Cups in a row well the reports of his demise were greatly exaggerated and premature Bernard Jackman, our friend and your friend talked about there's only a couple of super coaches and Andy Farrell is one of them.

It is extraordinary though that he's been there that long. I mean, like to be honest, critics are not crazy to bring up the idea of every coach reaches a sell-by date, you know, a stale date. It happens. It's just the way it is, but not yet. My curiosity also, because I hear arguments, I see arguments going on.

And one of the things that I don't know the truth and you are the ultimate honest man, where does rugby rank in Ireland in popularity is it number four as I hear all the time or is it number one is it number two where does it sit yeah like I suppose like if you looked at it kind of across the calendar year you might say that it's probably number two like you know like and and then you'd have Gaelic football and hurling fans would go ballistic by that but they just have these kind of moments around two months of every year when the the All-Ireland Championship is at its kind of peak that that just dominates like you know that would that used to dominate every summer and it would take over everything and you'd get you'd get swept up in it again like you see a good hurling game you know two sides at their peak you're like yeah this is an amazing sport and I'm so proud that this is from you know my country as well but like when the championship is over you know it kind of rugby does kind of start dominating headlines again like so yeah there's an argument to say that um that at times in the year it's the second one uh but what's one football yeah football is number one and even there like and this is considering how terrible um you know the national team were in ireland for for a long time like i think the last major championship we got to was 2016 and uh so and then after that like we're getting beaten by the likes of armenia and luxembourg you know and um but what is it just players on liverpool and you know prim well yeah there used to be like there used to be but then um but then what's happened i suppose maybe a part of it would be brexit as well like you can't bring in an irish player until they're 18 until they're an adult so then and then so like transfer laws made it easier there's more players coming in from like spain like nigeria uh coming in from mexico like and and all of a sudden the irish it used to be ireland and england and wales and scotland would be all in the main division and so irish guys are now kind of in the championship and and a bit below so like they're not playing at that elite level like um like i think the only thing we've seen good at producing at elite level would be goalkeepers you know like goalies goalies are all we could do like and um and then the odd kind of player every now and then we play for like an everton or like a brentford or something like that so uh but then recently uh ireland went on a good run we beat portugal and yeah we uh we beat hungary we got to a world cup playoff and we played czechia the czech republic and um and all of a sudden you could see what happens when the football team are good it just sweeps up the whole nation and there's flags hung out everywhere and you kind of get reminded of like the golden era when um when you know probably the most beloved english man in irish history jack charlton came in and was their manager and you can just see like it just it's the conversation everywhere like and it's probably what maybe what i'd imagine what the conversation would be like in south africa when there's a big you know when the world cup is going on or something that's what it was like here so i'd say football is still number one but yeah rugby definitely has long stretches of the year where it would be kind of number two and then in the summer everything takes a back seat to gaelic games then and you're reminded how good these amateurs are at kicking the crap out of each other and getting amazing scores yeah that's brilliant i I do think there's a lot of athletes in GAA that you look at and you think they would fit in rugby. And I suppose they cross over, right? I mean, that's a kid. Yeah, there's a guy, what is it? Yeah, even just thinking of a guy called Brian Fenton, like a midfielder from Dublin, like just, you know, 6'4", 6'5", like just so athletic, could run all day.

And the player, like even when you have guys that were like players of their generation, there's a guy who plays for Kerry called David Clifford who's unbelievable there as well he'll probably go down as one of the greatest players of all time, can score from anywhere can score off the left foot and the right foot kind of mixes in a bit of basketball style and into his play as well GAA I suppose has become there's a lot of line breaks, line breaks are kind of how you break through the defensive walls and stuff so there's some rugby kind of crossovers as well and yeah so very good And then, yeah, I was reading up your clip not so long ago. You were talking about Joe Canning then as well. He'd have the brain to maybe be an out half or something out there as well, or fly half. Yeah, that's brilliant. Listen, we are fascinated by Ireland now in a rugby context, but I think what happens also is it makes you more fascinated in the country itself.

We just talked to Jamie Lyle from Scotland earlier today, and he was i mean he literally is in love with the country because he's so interested in south african rugby and that was that was what got him there so i think it's similar uh i won't speak for mba but i think it's similar for us is your country got even more fascinating it was already great but now it's more fascinating you may speak on my way off harry i agree with you yeah one of these years will uh the continued success of the show you can head off to uh to ireland for a kind of a live show when you're on when you're on your european tour yes but we can't get to the airport for the money we're making from youtube man can't take an uber that we have to walk i like the dream let's do it yeah thanks bet that's awesome man just love having you back and we're gonna have you back again if you don't mind oh yeah it'd be a pleasure yeah i'd love to awesome man thank you talk to you this is the lecker rugby pod only on megaphone rugby Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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