Why Rassie Is Fast-Tracking a New Generation of Springboks | Jon Cardinelli

You don't see many collections of front rows for a squad named. We have three caps, three caps, no caps, eight, eight, one out of all the front rows. That's a lot of less than 10 caps. Also in the age profile, you know, props have always been said. You only get to be a good prop when you're 28, 29.

That's, again, breaking the mold. NBA told me something that Jake White said, and I think I have this right, that 1.5 injuries per game, so that's three every two. That means in a series of four games, you've lost six, seven, eight guys. Like, for sure.

Part of me thinks that this is also part of the way that Rossi's picking now. He's thinking of, we might have to score 40 to win. We're not going to always be able to just squeak by. It sounds really bad if there's been no communication. That's usually a bad sign that it might be a serious injury.

Usually they might say, Ulrich has been monitored for injuries. Like they did with Cameron last year, in the releases or in the communications, the spring box will say you know this guy's got an injury but there's been nothing like that which is kind of strange this is the lecker rugby pod only on megaphone rugby right so it's wednesday so it's welcome back to the lecker rugby pod harry is back and he's wearing his western province jersey just to rub it in for me i think i said it many times before i'm at stage two of my grief process after the bulls that's anger so harry's been commenting on my levels of anger so harry welcome back and uh you can set up our gift or server our guest by the way what is the stage three what's next what do we have to look forward to next after anger no man after angus anger is going to last a year so i'll find out next year that's just a normal life in a bull uh so i guess is the the russiologist the the man who takes strips apart the age profile the uh the depth the the shape of the man of the squad and where it's going john cardinale john our friend from k-town john how's it going hey guys great to be back thanks for having me on if you had to look at the squad that just dropped i know the all blacks did it too we have ireland england dropping and you just take a look at it what is the one thing that sort of came to mind that you started ripping into and wanted to dig into oh it's a year before world cup so it's always going to be interesting to see who he brings through uh who he backs in terms of the senior guys the younger guys coming through and just kind of going into different positions uh where are we then where where we are ready set. So where does he want to get more caps into the team? And the deeper you go, you look at who's injured, guys like Quarka Smith, RG Stamon, is he going to rebuild the Bomb Squad? Is this a good opportunity for guys like Paul De Villiers and a few others to come through?

Where does Riley Norton fit in? So it's going to be very interesting to see how they make up the team for this portion of the season, also for the All Black Series coming up. So let's talk about that. The Bomb Squad has become a thing. It's verbiage.

Everyone uses it now. There could be a game being played in the East Midlands in England on a Friday night and someone's going to say the bomb squad. Once upon a time, people viewed the reserves as replacements. And so it was a matter of, here's my best guys, and then maybe here are my finishers, with the exception of a guy like Franz Steyn or something. But in general, it was my best guys are on and then my weaker guys.

And then Rossi built this idea of starting with the finishing team first in his mind and then working out his way on how to get there and then started to play around with Andre and Quagga. So talk me through that. What do you think the iterations of it have been and where are we going now, do you think? And I know this is all guessing, but where do you think it's sort of headed now? Is it more the Andre type hybrid or is it more the Quagga type hybrid?

Wow, that's quite a broad question, but there have just been so many variations of it. Rossi himself has picked it apart, rebuilt it, souped it up, two loose forwards, two locks, hybrid. what is Quacka Smith, an all-utility player. So they're very different variations, and it also depends on who's available. And like I said, Quacka Smith not being available now, that kind of changes things up.

Marco von Stadden playing as a hooker and a flank, Vessels coming as a Lucid prop and a hooker. Looking at who's available now, there are some options that we've got to take into account where we're playing. Last year, we had a lot of five threes. We saw where they play in South Africa. So it does affect selection.

and then of course there's there's the secret uh six two splits or the five three split however you want to look at it with Andre Esselstyn what is he is he a center and he's forward England won't know that right now a week away they won't know where they're going to play Andre Esselstyn where the spring box are going to unleash him in that bomb squad and I think that's the beauty of how this thing has evolved is only Rusty really knows on the day how he's going to use the guys is Marco Fonsard even going to play hooker if he's wearing 16 on his back was he just going to come on at number six. So I think that's been Rusty's trump card to keep guys guessing. And as we've spoken about, he's kind of built it backwards. He's kind of looked at who's going to finish the game in the second half, who's the best combination. So that outdated idea or that old idea of we pick the strongest available team to start, that's long gone.

We look at who's going to finish and who's going to really kind of take the tempo forward or lift the intensity. If you look at all their stats that's when they're really really struck the opposition in terms of points scoring all sorts of stats that that's where they come into their own what about a player like paul de villiers could he be quagha 2.0 um just as quick uh just as good with the ball in space uh very intelligent player and the quagha has always been a very good organizer but also has that battle stats was russi giving us a hint when he dropped the the news that paul was the top fitness test guy Yeah, that does give you an indication, but it's very hard to compare anyone else to Quakka because Quakka is Quakka for better or worse. Beginning of his career, he got a lot of criticism. Johan Ackerman always backed him in that kind of role, that roving role.

And now Rossi has found a place for him. Paul de Villiers, he's kind of been pigeonholed at the beginning of his career as out and out fetch a flank. John Dobson has backed him at the Storms. He's kind of flourished and shown some other parts to his game that may be very useful. I think Dobbo even used him in that number 16 position as a kind of utility hooker flanker that maybe Russie might explore.

In terms of mobility, he might be up there with Quakka and he might be a good stopgap. Ideally, you'd like both of them. If you're going to go through a season or if you're going to go through a World Cup, I could see both of those guys adding value in a World Cup squad and especially in a bomb squad. Yeah, Paul's been actually getting as many reps on line-out throws as the technical hookers. And that just tells you, And it makes you wonder also how much communications between Bockland and the clubs are going on, on saying we'd like to see this guy, Marco van Stad and Paul de Villiers, we'd like to see them in a pinch to be able to play hooker, given that scrums are being de-emphasized.

If you can just get the throw right on hooker, two good props can shield you. So it's interesting to me, if your big takeaway is the reconstitution or the evolution of the bomb squad. Mine's athleticism. And, you know, obviously a lot of these guys just pick themselves, just like with the All Blacks, you know. There's just people who have that, you know, Damon D'Aulende, Andrea Saison, Jesse Creel.

But there's other portfolios like the front row, where we're looking at people like Tukson Kuno, Zach Porthin, Kralu Sadi, you know, and the existing guys like Tank and Ox who can carry. I don't know about you, but I'm really looking at athletic props here. I'm seeing, you know, a guy like Nkuna who can really motor in the open space. A guy like Porthen, who's about as dynamic as a tight head can be. Is there validity to that?

That Razi is sort of pushing towards the new shape of the game that requires you to be more of a carrier? Yes, and he's got the kind of plus, the blessing that most of those guys are available. Now, last year we had a loose head crisis. and guys like Steenekamp, Mucunu, Fenter, and Che are all available. You're still waiting for Frans, Malheba, and Yacani to come back.

But then those players you mentioned, there's a nice mix of athleticism and like the big heavy tanks, like guys like Wilco Lowe, you can kind of ration for the second half if you really want to go after the scrum. Saudi's also a man-mounted, maybe not as tall, but he really is rated highly in that position. So there's a lot of options there. And I don't think you can survive in the modern game if you aren't going to be able to contribute around the park. And that's something that Wilco Lowe has really worked at in terms of his all-round game in the past few years, maybe not as prominent at the start of his career.

So as you mentioned, that kind of really makes a difference. Having front-rankers, even guys like Malcolm Marks, Krobala, Vessels, to contribute in the loose, that's going to make a big difference in terms of how they play. That's a great point because I like to look at the low-cap guys to see where directions are going. We obviously, Wilco would be the most sedentary prop that's named here. Tank is scoring tries like crazy in the Prem.

Tux, Ox, Zach was a really dynamic guy, like I said. But Bonfenter is even. And some of these names were not obvious. This is where I'm actually trying to see signs here because not all, the pundits would not have all picked these guys. At least five of them were, when they were named, a bit like, huh, Zach, why, really?

It was not something that was obvious. And I look at them and I realize they're different shape from the old school props. Really athletic. And also, maybe this is more important, Grobelar and Andre Hugo Fenter, not the biggest hookers. So I'm looking at maybe speed there.

Speed to rock, speed to tackle, and speed back on feet. What do you think? You mentioned Andre Hugo Fenter. His dad was a flanker, maybe a bit bigger than him, but very much in that kind of mold. He grew up, he played flank for Grey College.

He's kind of started his career as a flanker. I think Dobbo's used him at the Stormers a few times. In a pinch, he's moved to flank. So he can almost play like a hybrid role. Still very good at the scrum and the set piece, the maul, but does be able to fit into that roaming role.

And Krobala as well also started out as a flanker. So there's a lot of natural utility value that helps him to play that high-tempo game. You don't see many collections of front rows for a squad name where you have three caps, three caps, no caps, eight, eight, one out of all the front rows. That's a lot of less than 10 caps. And also in the age profile, props have always been said.

You only get to be a good prop when you're 28, 29. That's, again, breaking the mold. That strikes me as an appreciation by Felix Jones, Jerry Flannery, Rossi, Sticks of where rugby is going with more time on your feet and just a killer if you have tired, you know, if you have weary players, everyone becomes shit. You start to make mistakes. So moving on from that, let's look at the locks.

We've been talking about the lock, the great lock crisis now for a while. You know, obviously the lucky man in Ruben, but also we have this long list of utility forwards. So talk me through how this is going to work. You know, there's the proverbial lock flanks and then the proverbial eight, you know, blindside guys and, you know, everything in between. Yeah, it's interesting.

You mentioned like a huge group of forwards, but it's amazing how after a few weeks, you're wondering if you have enough to make up a team. There's such a high attrition rate in the second and back row. And you see a few guys are missing at the moment, like Sneiman, Ruan Fenter, was going to get like a big opportunity this season. The utility value, russie's always been a massive fan of the the tweener the guy can fit between five and seven and and we see more recently guys that can uh almost play between six and eight um uh quaker smith can play all three so that's utility value on the bench so there's kind of different ways you can look at it because uh going to a world cup you have a limited amount of spots uh so you want utility value especially in that loose forwards um uh lock area and also on the bench so that's something you've got to keep in mind you'll have like a bigger group now of 46 and kind of bringing that down to 33 for the ball cup so you kind of look at who's going to fall away and you've got to take into account there's going to be injuries between now and 2027. you know you and i've been watching ruben van heerden for a long time obviously watching stormers games um the man doesn't do anything wrong why is it taking so long for him to get in and almost like the back door and i'm hopefully that he'll seize his place but he's a consummate line-out operator he's very respected by all the other players he's a he's a leader in the locker room he doesn't miss tackles I think there was a stretch there where he had about 100 tackles with no miss.

And they're not baby tackles. He's dominating in a tackle. And he's a decent carrier. I mean, Eben hasn't been a great carrier in his career. Lourdes is a good carrier.

Ruan is still working on that. So why do you think was holding him back? And how much do you think he could seize this Nation series? Yeah, it's an interesting question because we've always been kind of blessed in the second row. And we've had a lot of guys coming through at the same time.

If you think about Eben, Lurz, RG's name, and all those guys almost started their careers around the same time. And they've kind of stuck around. And Klain came in before the 23 World Cup. We had quite a big group of blocks. And then suddenly we've had a lot of injuries, a lot of people being unavailable.

I see that Murat is also unavailable now. And Rossi has mentioned before, how are we going to rebuild the second row? So now this is an opportunity for Ruben. And a guy like Riley Norton as well. They pushed him through as a starter last week.

I was quite surprised. I thought he might play against Zimbabwe, but they obviously rate him as potentially he could play for the Springboks in this coming series, either as a starter, and you said the more experienced guy for the bench, and a guy like Ruben as well. It's quite interesting to hear your take, whether he's more like a line-outs manager or more a ball carrier. How do you see him at four or five? But maybe that's a plus.

He can offer utility from the bench. He's a bit like John Klein to me. You can stuff him in four or five, it's okay. He a confident person and he tends to lead whatever group he walks into he commands the room you know so um but tweeners is interesting you know you started looking this you started listing these names and i started thinking almost all of them have been at some point at twina even etzabeth has been has played blindside in france for his squad there and for the sharks um rouen definitely has a shape of a guy you could see playing uh on the loose um peter step of the toy is probably the world's most famous tweener literally changed the position uh franco sosa is definitely a tweener and plays very much a lot you know on blind side uh in other clubs uh and then you know we have the big looming sort of um who got left out which is kuba's visa makes his way in but elrich lowe not and elrich lowe he could play a lot of positions i know not every player likes to play lots of positions but he can play a lot of positions probably that's the one because I think he's very athletic too that I really scratched my head over and does it mean that much or is he just being told to make sure that leg is really good before he comes back in for the All Blacks yeah I think we spoke about this a few times on this part about how important he's been to the spring box and how unfortunate it was that he didn't get to play in 25 in terms to cement that position, either as an alternative to Peter Steff or even number eight, even as a member of the bomb squad. He just seemed like a regular.

He was going to be a regular in the 23. And unfortunately, he got injured. And now to see him like miss out completely, as you say, I was very surprised. And maybe they're looking at someone who can cover more positions. I personally believe he can play a role at number eight.

Do we have a guy who we do have a number eight options like Hanna, Korm and Roos, but do we have a like for like like Jasper? You can, as you say, run through seven walls and keep going. And guys that have missed out, I'm very surprised that Ulrich, there aren't a few injuries, he might come back into the mix. That's the thing, even with this group of 46, and we've said it before, Rassi, things can change very quickly. There's a few injuries and suddenly Ulrich is back in the mix.

As you say, his leg is right. I'd be surprised if he doesn't come back into the mix at some point this year. And he has done that. When I say he, I'm probably being they. The whole coaching group has sometimes put a guy, like he's even on the BAC website.

He has all his stats there. And, you know, whether he likes pizza or steak, he doesn't get picked for a while. But it's almost like, no, you know he's going to get picked because he's on the promos. He's getting commercials. He's posing in the shop.

You know, like Ruiz comes to mind. You know, Ruiz was always there. He's always there. it was like he wanted to get taught a lesson um on on the on on the other side you have a guy like riley norton fast-tracked like you know almost like this is a no no miss um so young so mature um and an interesting intriguing combination don't you think of hard work he's like got really great battle stats but he is athletic and just a smart guy in the field like you know how Ireland's been doing this for a while where you have guys that aren't necessarily physically overpowering, but they're so clever, like Josh Van der Fleer, Caelan Doris, James Ryan, that they get you places. Definitely.

He seems to have that kind of leadership aspect and that game intelligence. We've seen the Springboks evolve over the past few years. And we're not just a physical team. We're not just an accurate team. We've become a very smart team.

And Rossi is kind of mindful of bringing those players in as well. It just kind of takes us to the next level. and what I like about this group there's been a lot of youngsters coming through so it shows that Russie's thinking about the future not just 27 but maybe even 31 and and there's a few guys here a few leaders here who could be in that leadership group when they go to the states in six years time and maybe Riley would be one of the prime candidates to lead the team if some of the other senior players aren't around anymore or even to complement them in terms of having him on the field he really looks like he's adding value I know it's just the barbarians but that that will lead to russie wanting to have another look how does he go against england or wales or scotland just to see where he is at and how he can be used in these two years um definitely seems to be the plan to use them uh in the next world cup cycle with a few of these other guys but are they going to add value now i think that's the answer he wants to get it's very intriguing um that riley's been named as a utility as well as kurbas and uh young vessels i mean you'd think that vessels by now would have been sort of forced by the rugby authorities to pick a position but there he is still um interesting i was watching as i was at uh in dublin i was sitting right behind yann henrik vessels and i kind of see why he's really got an if he just walked into practice you wouldn't know which position he was playing but that's like you wouldn't know he's a prop doesn't necessarily scream hooker to me kind of looks maybe like a number eight in some in some teams um body shape a little bit like gaspard visa actually a big thick through the haunches difficult to put down uh proper belligerence um and then you have a guy like franco mustard who's played that his whole career just put me in coach i don't care i mean just break my leg break my head i'm still in um what do you make of all this again i'm looking at the all blacks side by side right now on the chart that i have and they have everyone proper picked everyone's got lots of caps except for maybe three guys everyone's a specialist i mean where are we going with this is is this the in your rossiology uh life is this where it's headed that the box are trying to set the curve and then everyone has to catch up well i guess it kind of uh the the answer you want to get first is can they do their primary job can we still uh dominate scrum and set piece and if the answer is yes and they add value across the field i mean for sure bring him in um he doesn't always have to be the biggest guy look at oxen and chair has kind of um changed that stereotype of having to be a man mountain to be the best scrummager in the world and he's he's fantastic around the park so it doesn't necessarily uh tell you uh just because of body shape whether he's going to be good or not or where he's going to add value and vessels you brought that up in terms of getting caps he unfortunately missed the tour last year because of suspension and a guy like ulrich you know probably missed out a chance to cement his place in the 23 whether uh we got all the loose heads back now so maybe that's less of a need for him to play there but maybe as a hooker that that's one of the big questions we've got a lot of options that hook up but who's really the second hooker behind malcolm and i think that's really an opportunity for him and a few of the other guys now to kind of push for that and russie says he wants to get them more caps before they play against all blacks and before next year's world cup and that's just not just for him but over a range of positions that's going to be the thinking more and more i'm thinking john that if we were playing you know the decided against the all blacks the second hooker would not necessarily be a hooker that it might be a guy like vessels not an out and out hooker i'm more and more leaning towards it might be a marco it might be paul de villiers i feel like that's the telegraphing of this message with this you know abundance of utility forwards i am surprised that vessels only has nine caps i literally when i started doing this chart i thought i would be 19. uh he makes he makes a big impact on the field he he's ready for test rugby physically uh mentally he likes to fight uh i'm a little worried about kovats visa with the two caps is can he bring the same uh physical mastery that he does at club level into the test match because if you're going to be a blind side lock you know big enforcer lock blind side the one thing you have to do is you have to you have to win your physical matchups yeah just on the points of getting opportunities and uh the use of the hooker it's very interesting you go back a couple of years and look at how they've been used maybe three years ago the the props and the hooker just taken off after 55 minutes all three at once uh it just seems recently there's been a trend but leaving the hooker on the field for like 70 80 minutes garlic robo has um kind of played a couple games in a row he's just gone 80 minutes and marco has come on and just played flank uh so maybe that's another way they're looking at the the conditioning guys are seeing something where they can push the guys a bit longer and then rotate for the next game. And you can get more loose forwards on the field.

So all that bench, again, you don't really know what to expect. Are there hookers? Are there flanks? Where are they going to add value? How's the coach going to use them?

It's not always clear. So that's why having these other guys who have, what's the word I'm looking for? They can take on different roles as needed, not necessarily falling into a hook or a flank. They're going to add value. In terms of Kovac Bisa, it's interesting now not just how many caps the guy's going to get but how many minutes and where they're going to be used.

Where do you play Kovac? I think we had this conversation offline. He was used as a number eight last year and almost wasn't fair because we didn't really get to see what else he can add at lock and so on. And he's always been that kind of guy who can also play blindside flank. Who do you play him against and where do you play him and who do you play him in combination with?

Because that's always also a big thing that Rossi focused on in terms of kind of balancing younger guys with older guys just to kind of get the best out of a combination and give them the best chance to prove themselves. So where does he see Kovac coming in? I think after a few injuries, it might be easier to make that call, but maybe just at the moment, it's cover. I'd be surprised to see where he actually comes in. We go on to the, you know, the sexy positions, the loose forwards that everyone wants to debate forever uh looming in the backdrop of both locks utility forwards and lucy's is even at sabath and see uh khalisi's age uh the injury profile um it's always there you know because you always when a guy like that goes down you always wonder can you come all the way back um so i would think that in the loose forwards now in the back of their minds they're also talking about australia next year like am i in the picture which is also why it's so cruel and horrible for us with elrich being kind of a godson of this pod that he's not picked.

Although I'm still thinking it's more physical. So now we have an interesting mix that Rossi has named. And if we just go through them, we have Paul De Villiers, who everyone's singing the praises of, been man of the match five or six times a season for Stormers. His mates from the Stormers, BJ Dixon and Evan Ruiz, are named. So you have all three Stormers, Lucy's.

You have Cameron Hanecombe, who walks into any squad in any team anywhere. and then you have um sierkulisi obviously and then you have the two sort of um you have and then you have vincent uh chituka with jasper visa still claiming the eighth spot um so when i look at that vince evan cam bj paul athletes just athletes i mean all of them can play lots of multiple sports they're really good they're very agile um they're not your um just you know bruiser types um and also some of those guys i've just listed academically really smart like top of the class like really brilliant so talk to me about the loose forward crew with i think there's five of those guys that don't have 10 caps vince evan cam bj and paul yeah i think russie will know what he has and see peter stef and and jasper visa being that kind of frontline combination now it's just a matter of um whether they can get to australia and in that context that's why this is almost good having all these young guys pushing them because we're going to really find out you know whether they still have it um uh there's no question of a guy like peter steph's ability like the best one of the best players we've ever had but after having so many injuries and not having a lot of game time in japan now becomes the case well can he like catch up and close the gap and um having to play a lot of rugby in the test season how much uh room does that need for other guys to get a chance so this is like the puzzle pieces right russie will be playing with uh jasper as well also missed a few games last year um if one of these guys get an injury are they kind of pressed for time for next year's world cup we've seen sier it's been the last two world cups is he going to play he's had those two big knee injuries so so injuries kind of changed the picture with regards to uh hunter common wrist um hunter has missed the past two seasons test-wise because of untimely injuries wrist has just been surpassed the requirements now now they're back in the mix so now how is russie going to use them either from the bench are they going to get a few starting opportunities and what kind of combinations um because that that's going to be the key to bring the best out of him because they're quite different players russ as well we saw him playing against the barbarians he had a lot of value a lot of impact is that kind of his role in the bomb squad even a guy like cam he's very athletic maybe he's better suited to that role or do you want a jasper visa starting and another jasper visa on the bench i think that's what they had in the 2023 world cup final when they're duane and jasper kind of playing a similar role um so you don't lose that momentum so these are all the kind of uh chess pieces that russie has to work with if he wants to you know figure out what his plan is for next year and even for the all black series a few months down the line they're very quick uh 26 year old evan and 24 year old cam they're both very quick um paul absolutely would be at the top there as well maybe be the quickest forward so if you put them in a big race together i don't know who'd win vince is up there as well well. And I think in some ways we forget how quick SIA can be in open field. So it looks like to me when I just compare them to say the All Blacks prototypes, Peter Lakai, Simon Parker, Adi Salvea, Wallace Satiti, Luke Jacobson, and Anton Senier, the box are quicker. That's a quicker group.

They're also more athletic. It seems like Ben Jason is becoming sort of that guy that is the guy, the understudy of Peter Steff. And it seems like the bomb squad doesn always have two locks on it now Sometimes the lock is a shift Maybe it a guy who was on like peter steph shifting over and there an and so there a there some trickery there how do you see in a bomb squad against the all blacks for the final for you know in the decider who do you think is the the next lock off the bench uh just a word on uh what i think it's not necessary i'm not a coach or a technical expert it's just basically looking at what russia has gone with before and how he's used these different combinations and it does seem trending a lot the last two years that he has kind of favored two loose forwards off the bench and kind of saved that two two lock uh combination a second type five for specific games where you might want to really go after the opposition scrum or you might have a specific plan so it's good to have options but you'll see guys who are out and out blocks i mean you wouldn't select burratt as a as a loose forward for example it would be in a combination for a second type five and a guy like bj i think he even started his uh stormer's career at lock um and that's almost where he was selected as a guy could potentially develop into a seven um so he has that kind of background which russie and them value a lot you see what he's added around the line outs uh i think it was last year or the year before before he got injured that those little kind of moves they were able to do with a guy like him at the back of the line outs which i haven't really tried to do with anyone else so maybe that also factors into the intelligence. If you speak to guys like Rito and Dobber at the Stormers, that's what he kind of adds in that kind of line-out setup on top of adding a bit of speed around the park. Very good hands, too.

Lewitt has incredible hands, some of the best hands ever for a lock. Can catch in contact, doesn't spill the ball. Ruben's got really good hands. Ruan Nortia, very good hands, catching that try that was a try that was disallowed and being able to do that. He's just a skilled guy.

So, yeah, I think Ben Jason is, first of all, he has the wingspan of a lock. He has the height and the wingspan. The wingspan is important. You could actually put Vince Chetuka up there in the air, and he's going to win most hand battles as well. And then Hanukom, even though he's not the tallest of guys, has such spring and easy to lift, you know, easier to lift than Evan.

So, yeah, there's a lot of factors in there. So sometimes you want to have three line-out targets. And like you say, the trickery in the bot camp right now, Sometimes you want one of the line-out targets to throw to the other line-out target while they're still in the air. And that's been Ben Jason's forte. So, you know, if you're looking at this right now and just saying, who do you think will be the least used out of Kuba's Visa and Ruben van Heerden?

And perhaps let's look at, yeah, Chotuka. Who do you think of those is sort of like just there for cover? And who do you think might get some more game time? yeah just in response to your other question as well about who do you think is kind of shaping up as the bomb squad for the all blacks I mean you just look at the schedule when you really like get down into it is so brutal I don't I can't remember the last time there were four consecutive games against all blacks on four weekends it is going to be brutal and so like we said at the top of the pod you know like this it seems like we have so many players so many options now but that kind of gets narrowed down firstly through injuries and then through like just a simple attrition uh what Russi's plan across those three tests and we got that one at the end against the states got a factor in the trouble got a factor who's still standing um the series situation and and and the fact that they're all different venues two of them on the high fault one in cape town one in Baltimore so there's all different conditions and different plans and combinations that you'll need to win those games and that's why it's good to have a nice mix of players um it depends on what you want to do in the day and I think he's done well to kind of get the right guys together I think I'm I'm with Envia as well. I might want to bring in Ulrich Ler at some stage.

But I think by the end of the series, I think all these guys are going to get some game time, whether they need to or not. It's just going to be brutal. And we've also got the Nations Championship after that. So I think there's no danger in guys missing out completely. Yeah, Ulrich's never going to let you down.

His personality is never going to let you down. And I think it's good to have guys that you already know that you don't have to necessarily test. So there's actually a possibility here that what Rossi and co are doing is just making sure they see people that they don't know that maybe have let the box down or could. And let's just see what they look like, because you can always come back to the tried and tested. So I don't want to portray any sort of doom and gloom there.

NBA told me something that Jake White said, and I think I have this right, that 1.5 injuries per game. So that's three every two. that means in a series of four games you've lost six seven eight guys like for sure it's like you know inevitable it's like having a workplace where you're sure that you know you're going to have that many people out workplace injury that's bizarre you know for your planning when i think about that i the the utility factor and what's been selected here makes more sense like if you just if you just sort of say worst case scenario we're going to lose eight guys in three or four games um then a lot of these picks make a lot of sense. Let's move on to the backs.

Interestingly, very interestingly, Herschel Yankies jumps back into the frame. Empress Papier had played so well all season, even though I don't know if he fits the sort of cerebral type of profile that the Box 9 needs nowadays because of so much riding on it, so many factors, so many variables, so many checkoffs, so many scannings that have to be done before the box or the fake box or the whatever, but he's in there because of another thing that I think of. And then they come back to my theme, athleticism with that new window, that little umbrella given by the nines. Look at that, Ambrose, Herschel, Koubis, and Grant. Every one of them can take it to the house.

You give them a tiny seam, they can run through a gap like Williams did last season famously, an untouched score. I feel like that's the nod over the perfect, you know, the better kicker maybe, or someone who's got the better spiral. These are just four guys who can run away from you. Yeah, this one is kind of a tricky one because Papi hasn't played for eight seasons or so with the box, and he's earned it in terms of form. He comes back.

Herschel hasn't been around for three seasons. I know he's been in and around the team alignment camps, and maybe because he's playing in France, Russie wants to pick his brain on a few things on trends over there because scrum offs are just such a huge factor over there in terms of the way they manage the game. The one guy that I was really surprised who didn't make it was a hush impede just in terms of getting a younger guy involved. He looked very good in terms of how he kind of took the ball to the line and kind of fed the players off the short channels against Zimbabwe. So I thought he might get a crack with the beauty of the future.

He's one of the guys who kind of in that middle zone. He's not young enough to play for the junior box anymore, but he's still quite a youngster and will be around in 2031. So maybe Rusty's got a bit of a different thinking around that and bringing guys like Herschel and Papier a bit older, a bit wiser, maybe that's to manage the game and something he's seen in terms of the All Blacks or maybe a few of the opposition in July he's still got guys like Morday Vandenberg and Jalen Hendricks who are wrestling up and Fuff he's coming to the mix now, maybe unlucky to miss out, he wasn't that bad when he came on in the recent games but he's always got him in his pockets, he's not going to throw him away. Yeah I just see a lot of speed here and I was surprised looking at the cap count Herschel 24 caps, Garant's up to 28 now, Kubas has 50 and then Ambrose has 7 and I remember I was at a game in Murrayfield where Ambrose was playing 9 and a brilliant try was scored. I forget exactly how it went but I think it was Ambrose to Arjia back to Ambrose to Jesse to score.

It was like a straight line try. Literally they didn't deviate. It was just pure speed by a very quick lock and a very quick 9. I kind of think that there's what the box are doing under Tony Brown is stretching the field and realizing that there's so many situations where you don't need a rock. And that if you can get nines to act, to look more for the snipe, I think snipes were out of fashion for about 10 years.

Now they're back in and, um, and because of the protection around them, when you look at those four guys who's starting and who's the clear understudy, or is that even a thing in, in Rossi world now? Yeah, it's interesting because a guy like Kubis Rahnik was kind of the starter the last two seasons he even though there's a lot of rotation he was seen as kind of the best option and maybe also in tandem with Sasha he's a bit younger so they kind of complement each other in terms of how they manage the game um but you you see it how like his injury maybe Grant Williams gets bumped up now to the starting team and does that role kind of suit him as much maybe not it's not such a big deal against Wales or a few other teams are not quite um you know hitting their straps at the moment uh but against uh big teams like England and uh the All Blacks and so on how does that balance get affected when a guy like Reinhardt isn't there probably the best two options at the moment if they're fits are Reinhardt and Williams in that kind of one two one two combination um if you're looking at a bomb squad it's that's what I say it's gonna be interesting because we haven't seen guys like Papier and Yankees in that environment for a while and how's Rusty going to use them as you say lots of speed so potentially lots of impacts uh but if the game kind of tightens up it's not always guaranteed to open up in the second half it might be a bit tighter uh you sometimes want your more experienced players in the field to close it out so it's going to be very interesting to see how those guys respond to the the new responsibility yeah and a card on a bomb squad you often have a nine having to play wing um and when you're on the wing it's much more important to know how to play defense so everyone all those four guys that we mentioned can can attack as a wing they're all quick they're all know gaps and they know how space works it's much more important how you work with the 13 to close down a blitz and to when you shoot and when you don't and that's what gets uh fake wings caught out usually when they move out there um that's interesting i don't think that russie would trust papir out on the wing and a test match against the all blacks i don't see that happening so i think that it's between the three uh and herschel been around for a long time and we know about trust you know like it's rossi would probably look at herschel as saving his job in that uh the draw against the all blacks in new zealand uh that wonder try um it also matters a lot who you is so do you want you know um do you want um kuba starting with um andre or do you want to have you know williams going to pollard and then you want or do you want to have the two young guys or how fire would that be when you have williams and libuk i mean just too much speed uh just going back again to last year we almost had the perfect combination towards the end of the if you look at that those run of eight games they almost found like the perfect balance with um uh kubus and sasha starting at nine and ten and then lebar and williams coming off the bench and then having hundred as the backup even though he didn't play a lot of games kind of adding value behind the scenes and now it's almost uh kind of things get uh bumped around now because uh sasha's out uh so who do you pair with reiner do you want a younger guy or he's not as young he's about 27 a guy like liebok and then say pollard is pollard going to add as much impact off the bench that's also the questions maybe that tony and russia are asking themselves and what do they want from that second off from that bomb squad do you potentially put that poliden from the start a guy like moyo coming into the to the test side kind of surprised me i thought they might then just go off him and win another title with the junior box and keep like another guy to come through. But obviously with Jordan Hendricks are being injured now as well, that those options that they've been looking at the group is a lot smaller unless they use a utility and they're exploring a key on horn and maybe a guy like Damien Willemson, a few others who could fall that role. So if there's another injury, it's going to get really interesting because if Sasha doesn't come back for that all black series uh you probably need more than one really good option to get through those four tests i'm hearing and this is very reliable that sasha will be back in plenty of time for the all black series that is actually really uh ahead of schedule which would you would you would expect from a super athlete of that age they spring back really quickly speaking of super athletes at a young age i mean moyo got to be the most different character than pollard you know in the same position that you couldn't imagine i would love to hear behind the scenes how they go appallage known as being a great mentor he's got a lot of time for guys for young guys um what a fantastic way for moyo to learn though don't you think like not a lot of pressure but just be around it yeah just from the outset uh from what i hear from what i've seen i've just been watching a few games i went down to the sa under 20 game at rondebos a couple of weeks ago to to watch them play and he was a fly off he's got a lot of presence you're speaking about presence uh Ruben van Heerden and so on but even at the age of 20 this guy's got a bit of um swagger about him not in an arrogant way you can see he uh commands um the back line and just in terms of how he manages it and his goal kicking at the last junior world cup uh kind of really made the difference on top of everything else so he's got all the raw materials and obviously coming into the environment now russie and them see something in him that can potentially you know they can fast track them now rather than the next world cup cycle uh maybe not playing every game but certainly gonna add some value or he's gonna learn from guys like pollard and even lubock i think it's underrated how much um a guy like lubock has added to the spring box in the last couple of years and it's gonna be a big year for him if if we're saying sasha might be back to the all blacks at least for these three tests now it's going to be big for the book yeah lubock's famous for his scanning ability mvr posed a great question one of our um side of tide series about that and I think Manny got named right. The idea that someone, I think maybe it was Willemse did this.

I think it was guys who said you know the no look cross kick Yeah but Manny already looked you know and it the stuff that he does before Making sure you understand the space on the pitch would be the number one work on for a young 10 Because there's not as much space on a test pitch as there is wherever he's been playing before. Marnie is a guy that's always found space his whole career. I'm going to call him the astronaut. He finds space. There you go.

I just coined it. the most boring position selections are in the midfield for the all blacks in the box it's Diggs Andre and Jesse the body Creel and then across the the Indian Ocean we have Jordy Quinn talk to Paya Billy Proctor and Anton Leonard Brown ends on Leonard Brown I mean this guy's been playing since he was I don't know it's been him forever that's just same old same old and it's just it's just a great reflection because it's the same in Ireland I think it's the same for the most part in the French setup as well, is you don't want to monkey around with your midfield. Your midfield's got to be tight. These guys, Damien, Andre, and Jesse, they know everywhere the other one is going to be. There's no surprises.

So let's jump out to the outside backs, the utility backs, the miscellaneous backs. So we've got some people that are locked on and obvious. We got Damien with 50 caps coming up. Currently, Arden, so the Butcher at 30. we got chess and colby also knocking on the door for 50 caps and then we have um a collection by the guys so we have fussy who's at 15 caps we have canaan at 23 caps um and then we have edville uh the lacquer back in uh in in training and kwan horn that's a very funny mix um i think we do we do we know who's starting wings at this point do we do we think it would still be uh chesslin and currently definitely cheslin especially now that he adds value as a goal kicker as well he's been having a great season in japan atop the point scoring table in that division and just as we saw in the recent game with for the spring box i think he got nine out of eleven or something like that from the kicking tee even though the camera guy tried to smash him over at one point so he dust himself off and went again so definitely he's still adding value like curtly has kind of struggled with injuries so I think he needs a decent run with a spring box um just to get back to that level that he was before a guy like Ed Edwell's been very unlucky just because you know these other guys have been in the mix and the way that Russi picks his back divisions it's almost like there's a lot of utility so you don't need as many options you don't need like seven wing options or four like you might need four scum off options uh a guy like Fassi as well has been uh unlucky because in 2024 he was the guy he was the the starting fullback although Damien Billimso was absent at the time and he really took his chance then he got injured and then he's had a few more injuries since so you mentioned 15 caps he should have far more by now but maybe that's the plan this year to kind of uh give him a few more chances at fullback but then you have a guy like q and horn who potentially could uh be a utility player in a 23 um as a 15 as a 10 russi mentioned you know also can add value as a goal kicker so it's it's almost like a unicorn within the 23 no pun intended um you know you want to kind of see what he can do from the bench and whether he could potentially be a factor at the world cup it's a cool group though you know you could almost pick a soccer team out of it you know you've got the the stretch range you guys you could throw a guy like injured ethan hooker in as well just tall range you guys so you have your fussy hooker moody types um and then you have these sort of pint-sized mysteriously powerful swivel hipped lockerbacks uh kelly um colby and and edville and then you have a guy like williams coming in um i suppose the one you know the one that i it's hard to fit in in in that in that uh matrix is kwan horn talk to me that horn what's he's he's mr it boy he's he's on everyone's tongue everyone's talking about him what can he bring is is he someone that you can see russ he's trying to figure out or does he really have him locked in as a plan yeah i think everybody was surprised um uh personally i wasn't surprised that he was picked for the squad he's been playing great ravey for the lions massive kicking game um probably the most 22s out of all the backs we've mentioned there um and just in terms of how he manages the game they see him almost as like the second 15 that the kind of role that billy larue almost played um because there aren't a lot of players maybe david willem so also fits that that mold who could come in a second uh second receiver or off the second place um in terms of a fly off i was very surprised that they just threw him straight in there uh as a number 10 option and that kind of shows what they're thinking already they might be willing to do it again is it just one and done or they're going to try that again and the fact that he's been retained in this 46-man squad for these three games kind of tells you that he's he's going to get an opportunity at some point whether it's from the bench or as a starting whether it's a 10 or 15.

I would say if Rossi was being conservative there are a lot of options there but there would probably be that Wales game so that they can have a look or maybe it's against Scotland maybe they're present more of a test and can really kind of see whether he's ready for that um more more responsibility against all blacks but it is a very exciting selection with a lot of possibilities makes such a good interesting point there and i want to dive into that just on the tail end of this um about the running 10 and the rise of the running 10. you look at um charlie bear intermack for the french obviously for ages all blacks have been picking bowden barrett and dave mckenzie reuben love is that sort um obviously jack crowley looks better and we saw sam pedagos against the bulls showing some of his running skills sasha's been tearing up trees um where he's a primary carrier and you know line breaks and using 10 with more space afforded by the nine now it's sort of a knock-on effect it gives the 10 more space too so they don't just have to shovel kick or pass they they can actually make a break. When I look at that, you know, I literally, if you just, you know, don't get hung up on what people look like from on the surface. I saw Quan Horn making those moves en route to the Raleigh Norton try and I saw Damien Willemse. I mean, quick feet, hard to put down.

Damien's not the massivist guy, but he's hard to put down. He's powerful. Quan Horn looks like he's comfortable in contact. You know, and with Lubbock, Moyo, maybe we're going away from the really old school 10. Just we want to have more attacking.

Tony Brown likes to say 15, you got to defend against 15 of our guys. Like everyone is a potential attacker. I'm with you. I think this is an interesting experiment and it so fits within Professor Rossi's mindset. And when I look across at the All Blacks, I've just been trying to look at what they're doing as well.

The one area where they do experiments is also outside backs and utility backs. You know, there you see a Morby. You see a guy whose name I cannot pronounce. It's two Fs. But there's a lot of guys that are picked on form, and they are just really dazzling in open space.

The other thing I would say is looking at some of these finals matches recently and even semifinals, the scores have been ballooning. it's not you know the stormers were able to drag uh lens down to the gutter but for the most part to lose uh the saints um the hurricanes they were just racking up scores that we would not normally associate with um with finals so part of me thinks that it's this is also part of the way that russi's picking now he's thinking of we might have to score 40 to win we're not going to always be able to just squeak by yeah but on the flip side of that i mean the attacking stats were off charts last year also in 2024 they broke all the records they've been moving that direction for a while but if you actually go and look at the stats the defensive stats are still really good um you might be scoring 30 to 40 points every game but you're only conceding about 20 25. i think the box might have conceded 30 once last season it was at the 38 against australia they still aren't really letting that many tries through so it's still still a priority and obviously uh um having the ball a a bit more whether it's keeping the ball hand or getting it back from the kick chase is part of the strategy and takes opportunities away from the opposition but uh that those defensive standards are still really high um and that that that's why um you mentioned new zealanders playing in super rugby the high scores there's been a lot said about the defensive standards of that competition and it is quite a a broad spectrum of teams and and strength levels so i don't know how much you you can read into that. And that's why with the All Blacks, it's going to be interesting to see how they go in these nation championship tests, how they go against France. And I think it's Ireland and Italy, if I'm right.

But just to see where they are, because I don't really think the Springboks will read too much into the Super Rugby if they're gauging how the team's going to play later this year. No, for sure. And Dave Rennie doesn't really fit that mold anyway. He's going to bring a much more brutal style, more pragmatic. He's fond of the set pieces and he's always going to build packs.

that are attritional. So just, you know, in retrospect now, when we look back at this squad, besides the Elrich Lowe omission, what one thing grabs you? And then I'll think of mine. No, I definitely think they're backing a few youngsters, as we've mentioned. A few guys like Riley Norton is going to get an opportunity, Kieran Horne maybe in the back line.

And rebuilding that bomb squad is going to be a priority. Hopefully, Rusty doesn't get that many more injuries, not just for the series coming up, but for the All Blacks. We're going to have to survive those four brutal games in a row and then later maybe four tests at the end of the year for the Nations Championship. We won't think about it now, but there might be a potential to get another trophy at the end of the year. And you'll need a squad of 40 to do that four weeks in a row.

So some luck with injuries would be great, but he's going to have to adapt like he always does. And there is a good mix to start with. I'm with you on that. I think Rossi and his coaches, particularly Felix, think of winning as a habit itself, in and of itself, an abstract idea that you get comfortable, habitual, and you expect it, and you're okay being the favorites. I think this is very important to them, because we're going to be the favorites from foreseeable future.

When the box on the field, they are favored to win. That's a lot of pressure. My big takeaway is adaptation. I feel like just listening to you, and it's been wonderful because you're living and breathing it, is these are all a series of adaptations. And much like a hypothesis or a working theory, he's trying to figure it out how it will work together and the magic will be in that.

And lately it's been really good how they've been able to fix, with a couple of omissions, bad games. But most of the time it's been just enough of a skeleton of experience and then putting the new guys just in the right spot. I've got to say, I'm so pleasantly surprised by Riley Norton's ability to play in that position. But the real test is coming up against proper test packs. And that'll be interesting to see if it's game time.

But one guy I'm really looking forward to seeing on the field, though, is Paul De Villiers. I just want to see that man motor around. And it's the second coming of Ratel, of Henrik Brousseau. and the idea that how much that changes. You know, I was dying watching the Bulls in Dublin for a player just like that to get under the skin, to thwart Dublin's attack.

I think you saw two weeks prior what they can do and the Stormers just sort of stymied them and how they can frustrate a team like Ireland. So thanks again, John, for coming by and checking us out on the Lack of Robbie pod. We love having you over and we're going to keep talking to you through the year as this thing adapts and continues to adapt like uh just sort of like one of those new creatures new species of box okay thanks for that i went and looked it up the next stage of grief is uh depression that's bargaining sorry it's bargaining so i'll start bargaining if you put alric in the stream bargaining oh bargaining bargaining i'll feel better yes i'll tell you what i was so disappointed after friday's game and then Sunday morning waking up and Elodie's not there. You know, like you know, you just said you're sort of an adopted son on this podcast and it felt like very personal for me. I hope it's not just form related because I mean, even though he wasn't at his best, he was still, he was the top carrier in that final.

He broke tackles. I mean, he's still to me in contact. He's just like Peter Stefft-Toy. As we said, if it had to be like an either-or scenario, surely Ulrich over Corvus Visa that we mentioned on the website but it sounds really bad if there's been no communication that's usually a bad sign that it might be a serious injury usually they might say Ulrich has been monitored for injuries like they did with Cameron last year in the releases or in the communications the Springboks will say this guy's got an injury but there's been nothing like that which is kind of strange I would probably like Tim to just go away and train, get strong and then come back super motivated but I don't see any quit in that boy. I think he's going to come back.

Yeah, he's not. You're right. Anyway, John, thanks, man. I appreciate it so much. Thanks, guys.

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