The Trick Play Against France That Changed Everything for Nadine Roos | Loose Pass

Well, I guess so, because if you walk in the streets in South Africa, you almost get a feeling of that, you know, people's glancing over at you. And I guess that's where they know about you. And it's almost like they don't want to approach you for a photo or speak to you. So they just look and stare at you. And also my dream was to go to the Olympics one day.

and obviously I knew athletics is an Olympic sport, but not sevens. That's where I realised I have to put all my efforts into rugby. I don't watch rugby for the entertainment of it. I watch it to learn. That's a play that you take your chance on the field and hope the ref doesn't blow it against you because it's also something that you've never seen before.

This is the Loose Pass Rugby podcast only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the Loose Pass Rugby Podcast. And as promised, we are pushing and promoting SA rugby, women's rugby specifically, and we're doing a good job of it. I hope so. And we're not getting much help, but we're trying.

So, Hugh, it's my pleasure to welcome Nadine Ruiz, the Antoine de Pont of South African women's rugby, or women's rugby for that matter. Welcome. Thank you, Envia. Thank you, Hugh, for having me on your podcast. Yeah, it's really a privilege just talking the women's game and yeah, basically uplifting women in sport.

Yeah, we don't start at the bottom here at Megafoon Rugby. We go straight for the big ones and there goes, which women's spring box you'd like me to get for you? And I always just say, Libby, Nadine, hello, all of the big ones that are on the front of all of the magazines. So I remember first seeing you, Nadine, and it was actually your name that stood out to me. It was like, Nadine Roos, that's a good rugby name.

I bet she's good. and then I watched you and you were pretty good um so I'll just like kind of give a bit of background because you're a bit of a celebrity now because when I was at the game in Northampton watching you in the World Cup there's people behind me going like oh you need to watch the nine you need to check out the nine and there's people next to me who like were new to it and after it like halfway through the game like South Africa's nine is good so like are you used to you are you a rugby celebrity now? Well, I guess so, because if you walk in the streets in South Africa, you almost get a feeling of that, you know, people's glancing over at you. And I guess that's where they know about you. And it's almost like they don't want to approach you for a photo or speak to you.

So they just look and stare at you. So yeah, I think by that, I can probably guess that, you know, they know about me they see me um and also the december holiday um i was on uh they call it the the time in in south africa um yeah where i was for holiday and i was quite shocked by the amount of people that you know came over asked me for photos um that actually recognized me so i guess that makes me a celebrity in South Africa. You always say all the women's players in the interviews say that they want to inspire the next generation and put women's rugby on the map. So I guess you've got to be careful what you wish for. Yeah, definitely.

You know, be trying to be an inspiration for the younger female athletes. You know, for myself, like I didn't know women's rugby existed when I was in primary or high school. it was only when I got to university that I know that women's rugby exists in South Africa. So now it's trying to change that narrative to show the younger generation that there is women's rugby in South Africa and almost be that voice and that example for them that I didn't have when I was about that age. How is the seven season going?

You're in with the sevens at the moment. How's the campaign? How's the camps going for you? You know, we started off our campaign while in the African Cup last year because we knew, you know, we have to win in that tournament and be dominant in the tournament. And then, you know, boosting the team's confidence going into the 7-3 tournament.

And the goal for that tournament was to win it, to give ourselves, you know, the best possible opportunity to play on the 7-2. 7-2 was a bit of a different ball game, very much pressure. Every game is a win game and if you lose a game, then you might end up not in that top four. And we knew that the top four is the only four teams that will qualify for the HSBC World Championship. I got injured in the Brazil game, the last 7-2 tournament, which ruled me out for the rest of the seventh season.

So it's quite tough, you know, watching from the sideline, but still within camps, being in rehab, still trying to be part of the team, you know, still trying to add value even to the new or younger players coming into the system, trying and helping them, understanding the system, you know, and finding their feet and in whichever way that, you know, I can be a leader in the team. I'm very close to the Bulls. I'm very close to Aldrich Lowe. I know Cameron Anukom. I know I've spoken to their parents and everything else.

And one of the things that they talked to me about was the fact that when they were injured, they were outside the system and they felt a little bit, not isolated, but, you know, a bit left behind kind of a thing. Is that, do you have, are you experiencing the same thing? Now being injured? Yes, definitely. You can almost feel that being in that rehab squad a bit isolated out of the team because firstly, you're not on the field with them, even though you, if you have time, because actually being in rehab is almost like a full-time program itself.

You walk in eight o'clock, you probably walk out at one, you know, from your rehab and everything that you need to do, focusing on the process. So you really get time to be with the team, to be with the players. So you almost feel like that one being left out. Then also, you know, when the traveling squad travels, you miss out on that, even though you know how it probably is traveling. but that's times that you also miss out and almost like, yeah, that's time that you miss out being with the squad, traveling with the squad, growing as a player, learning, you know, from the people around you.

So it is almost like being in isolation from the team and it can get quite lonely, you know, not being with the team. What does the next immediate couple of weeks look like for you? Because the Springbok Women 15 side have got a packed schedule, I think in 2026. So what does it look like for you now? Are you going to be still with the sevens for the next few weeks or are you going to be switching your focus to the 15s in the next month or so?

Yeah, so basically I'm still currently with the sevens, but I'm based at Stellenbosch Academy of Sports because I'm doing my rehab there with the Fijos. Yeah, the greatest facility to do your rehab at. So I will be there till I'm done with my rehab. And yeah, it's quite a long process. I've done my ACL.

So I had an ACL reconstruction. So the timeframe you look at this is six to nine months. Hopefully if all goes well, maybe I'll hit the six month mark. But at the end of the day, it's a big injury and it's something that I would want to look after for now because you only have one knee on one leg. It's important that I look after myself now, focus on the process and focus on getting the knee back at its best for the game we play.

Because if I want at least 10 more years in my career, I need to look after that knee now. well i've had the good fortune to interview coach suez or um suez as me and they call him and uh i'll be very surprised if he's not keeping very up to date on your injury process and we said you were the south african anton du pont he did his acl last year as well so you know yeah you just you just both been in the club okay so we'll talk more about kind of the the women's ring box and what you achieved last year and what's coming up in a moment but i want to go right back to the start now and the question that Mvea asked Libby last week how did you get into rugby how did you start picking up a ball and taking part in this sport I grew up on a farm here in South Africa so it's it's known as Limpopo Polokwane yeah so grew up with my grandmother but basically played with the boys um you know on the farm um and this wasn't only rugby it was all sort of sports we diced each other to see who's the quickest um we played cricket uh played soccer played golf um so yeah there's basically a lot of things um with sports that we even tried wwe on each other so you know had to be this little girl that stood the ground against the boys so the super rugby was quite big that time so proud Blue Bull supporter always watched the you know the Blue Bulls play every Saturday and you know when they played against New Zealand teams or the Australian teams and they played that side it's obviously early mornings that you have to wake up and watch the game. But Alaka Braiflacey and rugby, it's a very South African thing that tradition runs in South Africa. So, you know, then you watch the game and when it's halftime, you go outside, you play with the rugby ball. You know, when the second half kicks off, you're back in front of the TV watching the game and then you throw some quick picks and stunts in front of the TV on the couches.

but yeah then after a game you go out and you play rugby and you try all the things that you you see some of the players do on the field but yeah I was very big in athletics netball in primary and in in high school started playing cricket played cricket played netball did athletics even did cross country just for the fun of it and the time it it falls in you know almost at the pre-season of your athletics so it just helped with the endurance and fitness part of it so yeah I pretty much enjoyed sports and for me as a young girl the dream was always to represent my country I didn't know it would have been in rugby so rugby chose me when I got to university and and got the opportunity to go to the Tex women's sevens team practice and yeah from there on you know a month later traveled with tix to to france um you know the the sponsor allowed the team to travel internationally and um i played for text that that whole year in in tournaments uh that was 2015 um so i went to the university of pretoria um so yeah then traveled with the team to the rome sevens um i can't even recall some of the other but it was a lot of of tournaments that year and then played for the Blue Bulls 7s team in the Interprovincial 7s tournament held in Narspreet, Bumalanga in South Africa. And yeah, I got scouted there, you know, by the national coaches. And that's basically how I got my call up into the Spring Rock Women's 7s team. And that's how rugby started for me. It's a very similar story to Libby when we interviewed her.

She found it in university and ironically she went to France as well with her I think university team so did you cross pass with her really early on? Yeah so myself and Libby played in that same team in 2015 for for Tix. That's crazy. Yeah I think basically that time because women's rugby wasn't known in South Africa. So that was the only way to get into a women's setup is by going to a university and TICS was, I believe, was very well known.

The time that we even played USAS, so it's the university student something tournament, so it's where all the universities play against each other. and I have to really go look now how many teams there were but UKZN was there I think UWC was there there wasn't a lot of tournaments I don't even think Martis had a women's team back then where they do have a team now but yeah that was basically the only university tournament for women seven specifically There wasn even for 15s back then I think it was only recently where they started the varsity cup for the 15s game so yeah Turks was the only university team that travelled international so as a young player you I mean 19 years, 18, 19 years old, you could travel overseas and play against teams, I mean we played against Wales in 2016 so the same team that I've played against when I played for the Springbok Women's 7th. Who won? So, we won. That's one.

Yeah. Sorry, you. But, yeah, like, just getting that international exposure at a very young age, and that's basically the pathways. We still have to go as women's rugby players, you know, go to university and hopefully, you know, get into a union to play women's rugby. But for Seven specifically in South Africa, there isn't really a structure, you know, that we can get, that players can get scouted for to get a call up into the national team.

So just for use reference, Dux is the University of Pretoria. That's their name. Yes. And Martins is Stalagos University, UK is the University of Natal and the like. So just so you know what she's talking about, mean this is a it's an African term so you just and also by uh Nadine by the way he's a big whale supporter that's why you asked that question quickly you know and you obviously he's disappointed again but it's nothing new for him so don't worry yeah Wales lost again there's a surprise um so yeah so was that the first time that you've been abroad when you went on that trip was that the first time you went international yes basically so 2015 um was my first year I was a first year student as well.

So fresh off matric, traveling. It was even my first birthday being overseas as well. So yeah, France was my first trip with Dix internationally. I was on your Wikipedia page earlier. It was your birthday like this week, wasn't it?

Last week? Yes, it was Saturday. Happy birthday for the last Saturday. Thank you so much. you appreciate it yeah i wanted to just ask you one question that you talked about a lot in the beginning but we never got to it is why did you go to study at at taxis matter of interest so i went to to study um education um basically and also were further i i took other subjects as well financial accounting um and then uh mathematics as well um and then i also did my honors in further education and teacher development.

And I'm actually still currently studying strength and conditioning through Setanta. And you're still fairly young. There's a long career. You just said you'd want to play another 10 years or so. But, you know, is rugby your future?

Will you go back to education? Are you going to be going into coaching and the likes? What's the long-term plan? I think for me, I enjoy helping people. So, and I also, what I've noticed is the way that I analyze the game.

I really enjoy that a lot so I think definitely one thing that I will be looking at is the development of the women's game in South Africa I definitely want to get involved there then also I don't think I'll be able to go and teach now times have basically changed with children and the structures around that I think I will really struggle in a job that's 7 to 1 yeah, he was a teacher. His wife is actually, I don't think he, I think his wife is also still a teacher. But yeah, they're both teachers, yeah. But yeah, I think just working that almost the saying of a seven to five job, it's not my thing. I think I'll get frustrated, you know, sitting doing a desk job.

yeah but um i would definitely look at going into coaching um and and the development or even the analysis um of the game one of the questions that i had to ask you about was it was about like your kind of sporting background because every time i watched an interview with you there would be a new one that was mentioned like there was hurdling and then there was netball and then there's crossfit what is crossfit because it said you went to the international crossfit games yeah it's functional know, varied movements that you do, like you do Olympic lifting. So all your compound lifts, like front squat, back squat, snatches, overhead squats, overhead presses, with a barbell, cleaning jerks. So yeah, like Olympic lifting, weightlifting. Then you also, you have running different movements and every year at the CrossFit Games you there's a movement that you've probably never seen before or haven't been at the CrossFit Games for such a long time so what's nice about CrossFit is it tests your your fitness basically it's it's a very demanding sport. You have to, like, you can't have any weakness in any sort of movement.

So, yeah, CrossFit, it's a different sport and it's not, it's for everyone, it's for the community. But of course, there's only a handful of people that, you know, gets the opportunity to go to the CrossFit Games. And yeah, I was one of those fortunate people to be able to qualify in a team to go to the CrossFit Games and experience the CrossFit Games. And it actually helped me a lot with my athletics as well. With the hurdles specifically, I mean, I haven't been in a gym and to start, you know, lifting these weights and seeing what my body can do was also, it was a good learning curve and growth as a young female athlete.

and just to see how my body transformed. And I produced better times with my athletics. 2014, which was my matric year, was great to experience as well. And that's basically, I also enjoyed the challenges that CrossFit have shown me to go through and overcome those challenges. One other thing that Coach Grace was talking about is they were actively looking at recruiting CrossFit athletes.

You talked about that a bit before. And one thing about you specifically, you are, looks to me like a super athlete. I mean, like the French player couldn't catch you because you're so damn fast and you see an eye for a gap and you take it. And that thing, that move towards CrossFit, what's the thinking behind that, do you think? I think that cross over athletes, they already know what discipline and hard work is.

obviously and I think CrossFit it also teaches you a lot of discipline but also there's athleticism and I think that's maybe one thing that they might be looking at is that athleticism in in a certain individual now it's just you know teaching them this the skill set of rugby basically. You said in an interview that you didn't start playing rugby until you were 19 but listening to how you told the story earlier on that doesn't feel quite true because you said you were a rugby fan and you were playing rugby in the yard and you were watching the Blue Bulls it feels like rugby has always been in your DNA. Rugby isn't a South African DNA because you watch rugby it's a thing that you do every Saturday even you know when the Springboks played the test matches that time I mean that time when I watched Brana Banna, Frida Priya, Mornay Steyn, John de Villiers, all those players played when I was watching the game. But I only started playing rugby professionally when I was 19 years old. So I didn't play rugby as a professional in primary or high school.

So, yeah, professionally started playing it when I was 19 years old, but grew up obviously in a rugby house, watched the game every Saturday, every game that there was to watch. You were a three-time, I think I'm saying you're a three-time SA women's player of the year. So when did you realise that you were quite good at rugby and it could be your future? Like I mentioned earlier, representing my country was a big motivator and a dream for me. so and like I said rugby chose me when I got the opportunity to um to go to a tix uh training training um that's basically where rugby uh chose me and then um when the tix coach coach Rian um told me that sevens is an Olympic sport I was like because I didn't knew it um and also So my dream was to go to the Olympics one day.

And obviously I knew athletics is an Olympic sport, but not sevens. And that's where I realized I have to put all my efforts into rugby. And then 2015, when we played that inter-provincial sevens tournament, it was in November in 2015, where Coach Remfriend, the Springbok Women's Sevens coach. So they were a group of national coaches that were at this event. And yeah, they saw me there.

I was announced as the player of the tournament by them. They flew me down to Cape Town to start talking about a contract and being full-time with the Springbok Women's Sevens team. But I couldn't obviously commit to a contract that time because I was only first year at Turks. When I first got, you know, the first call up, it was in January where they went to the Las Vegas 7th tournament. And yeah, I got a call up before the tournament, a week before.

So trained, went with on tour, played in the tournament. And that was almost where I realised the second realisation that I want to make this work because now you're starting to earn an income, you know, playing rugby and just living out your passion. But yeah, I think the first time, you know, getting selected for a Rugby World Cup, the one that was held in New Zealand in 2022. But even before that, you know, the Sevens World Cup where I was selected into the dream team. And I mean, that's when people started saying I'm one of the top 10 Sevens players in the world.

Then you start realizing, well, there must be something that they're seeing. But I believe in humbleness um keeping your feet on the ground so yeah i always strive to be one percent better than i was yesterday i always look um in certain aspects of my game where where i can improve on um and that's basically where you also grow as a as a rugby player yeah absolutely and it's it's well documented how you had a little bit of a difficult start in life and how you were raised by your grandmother and you've spoken very passionately about everything that she gave you and all the credit that she deserves. The way that your early years kind of went, how do you think that influenced how you approach your day-to-day work? I had the example of my grandmother, what hard work is, what discipline is. You know, for her being a hairdresser, it's not one of the occupations that's on your highest paid rankings.

so basically lived month to month there was no luxury for me in terms of you know getting what a child wants I mean as a child you want sweets or you know that fun stuff so if there was enough money in a month I would get those treats so in terms of that you know she had to pay rent in terms of the chair that she used in the hair salon um so responsibilities was was always first um so in terms of school work I had to be be very disciplined in in how I do my school work but in terms of that the example that she said um you know responsibilities first discipline in her working hours um she worked also very hard so those were just her actions and living proof that basically just rubbed off on me um so and she always said before you can have fun make sure your schoolwork is done um so my homework would always be done before I would be allowed to go and play um so in terms of all those things growing up um you know facing financial challenges knowing that I had to work hard to go to university So my school marks had to be good to be able to be selected for a bursary to go study further to make something further out of my life. You know, when there was, when we were within Polakwani with athletics or netball events, she would always make time around her work, you know move a client maybe a day before or earlier um to be able to be there and support me um you know and show love towards me um and with whatever i came home um there was always that just that support um to whatever decision i make it's solely my decision you need to do the right things first and respect the things that gives you money to be able to do to do it um and that's basically even with challenges i believe that challenges are there to build resilient and resilience and if you're a resilient person it doesn't matter what you face in life there will always be a way to overcome it um and i think also you know with my grandmother um i am a christian so and that's just because how she raised me um you know like we went to church she learned about god um and know that doesn't matter what challenges you face if you always turn to him like your strength will always come from him the thing about creating history and like at the last rugby world cup you did something that no south african women's team has ever done before and you talk about yourselves being inspirations but who who inspires you when you're the pioneers and you're doing something that no one from your country has ever done, who do you look to for inspiration? Well, for me, when I was that young girl watching the men's game, I had players like Furi De Pria, Brian Abana, those players, Mornay Stain, even Dan Carter from New Zealand, just the way that they played. But as you grow older, obviously, like I had my grandmother, a very wise woman that whatever I faced, I always, you know, talk to her about things and she would always give me insight. She won't tell me what to do, but she always had great insight into things and places where in my career where I draw inspiration from is from the men's game.

even when I got into the 7th system Branco de Pria was the you know the form of inspiration there the way he played I was fortunate enough obviously at the same facilities to be able to speak and interact with him so also just the type of human being he was but then you also have the other 7th players you know when with them being such a successful seven system was players like Kyle Brown, Paul Dalport, Philip Snowman, Chris Drey, all those players. Werner Kork, you know, if you look at all of them, everyone brings a different brand of rugby, but you can also, as a rugby player, draw inspiration from that. So from a women's point of view in rugby. I didn't have any, you know, a lot of inspiration, but from CrossFit, like Catherine David-Stalter, she's well-known in CrossFit, an athlete that's been there for some time. So in terms of, like, the way that she, you know, treats people just by living and stuff, that was also a person that I drew inspiration of.

But it's always, what I also think a lot about is that when you look for inspiration from other people, you tend to forget the type of person that you are. So I think it's also very important. And even though you're looking up to someone, it's also important to know that you're on a journey yourself and you need to look at yourself as a human being and not fall into the trap of trying to live someone else's identity but live your own identity. 100%. So when you watch rugby now, I always love asking current rugby players this question, who do you enjoy watching?

Just who's your favourite rugby team to watch at the moment? My favourite rugby team to watch in terms of Sevens, it's definitely the Black Ferns. I mean, they have dominated the Sevens tournament this season. And I believe they will also win the World Championship. But I also enjoy watching our men currently, you know, coming from where they didn't perform that well.

I think it was the 2023-2024 season, you know, coming from that into being so dominant on the World Series now. And then in terms of the women's 15s game, I enjoy watching the team Canada. I think also what they've created at the Women's Rugby World Cup last year is also quite special. A team that's not professional, not in a professional system. They had to raise funds to go to the World Cup.

That was also cool to watch how the rugby they produced at the Women's World Cup and to play in a semi-final and qualify for the final. It was quite special to see where they come from, the challenges that they face and the challenges that they had to overcome to actually be in a Women's Rugby World Cup final. Yeah, absolutely. It was absolutely incredible what Canada managed and especially the style of rugby that they played as well. So absolutely thrilling to watch.

So we talked about Nuseven's career So when did 15s come on the radar for you? Did you always have the ambition to play 15s or was it came to you? That basically happened after COVID. So when 2021 came, they basically shut down the 7s programme. and then there was an option given to the seventh players to go to the 15th camp.

So I got invited to the 15th camp. This was just before the New Zealand Women's Rugby World Cup, which would have been in 2021, but it was held in 2022. Yeah, I played there, then got selected for the touring squad. that went to Europe at the end of the year in 2021. And then that's basically how I got myself into the 15th women's system.

Went to the 2022 season, went to the Japan Tour, played some test matches and went then to the New Zealand or the Women's Rugby World Cup that was held in New Zealand in 2022. So yeah that's basically how I got into the the 15th system and yeah then when we qualified in 2023 for the the Savers World Series I couldn't be involved in the 15s that much during the 15s international window because we were then on the World Series circuit full-time. And when did playing Scrum Half come on the radar for you? Because if I remember rightly, I don't think it was until the warm-ups against the Black Ferns 15 that you actually played Scrum Half for the Springboks. So what was that conversation like when Swayce touched you on the shoulder and said, hey, I've got a plan?

Yeah, so in 2024, that was the time that I wasn't with the 15s. And I remember some players telling me, no, there might be a plan to play me at nine and stuff. but then obviously 2025 happened and then as well the chats went that they might want to play me at nine and then we had a game in Cape Town against the Barbarians and that was so Coach Swayze and Coach Bath came on board at the end of 2025 it was October and we had like a camp in, that was pre-WXV actually in 2025, where we were at a camp in PE. And obviously the players started, you know, just getting to know Coach Swayze and Coach Bath, being the new coaches, you know, coming into the women's system. And then we just, yeah, spoke and he said, no, he wants to play me at 10.

So then got my opportunity against the Barbarians in the 10 jersey um and then the next moment they were saying no but they want to play me at nine um and then obviously there was just it was just speaking about it never knew when it will happen um and yeah then it happened it actually happened against um in the the test matches against canada so then got my opportunity started on at 15 moved me to nine and then the second test match started at nine moved me to 15 and then yeah black ferns i also got the you know the starting jersey at nine and so how did you learn what was that moment you were you just kind of sat there in your room going like well i better learn how to play nine now and just had to pick up a load of skills really really quickly how did you do that did was it about studying tapes did you have a specialist coach for it what's that process like when i heard that they want to play me at nine i went to our most experienced nine in the team which is uh taylor um yeah she was also very open and very helpful, you know, sharing her knowledge and her experience with me. And then, of course, just watching the game. Like when I watch the 15th game or any rugby for that matter, I don't watch it as entertainment. I watch it to learn as a player. And I think just by that, what the nine does and things like that, I also learn in that way by just watching the game.

But then when it came to the skill set, obviously also just listening to the players around me, you know, how they feel pressure when you, you know, play scrum off. And every scrum off is different. Like my game is much quicker than the other, you know, other scrum offs. And then the box kick was a skill set that I just had to practice over and over again. but I also had to go look for help from coaches and coaches also helped me with the box kicking, helped me with certain things.

How do I need to line up the forwards to don't get that charge down pressure? What do I need to do in terms of foot placement? Where to kick the ball? In terms of all those more statistical play around the 15th game. So yeah, definitely when I heard that they're planning to play me at nine, I obviously had to go do my homework and do the things before people just come to help me rather than go ask for the help and learn from the experienced player.

And a bit like what I asked before, do you have a favourite nine? Who's the nine whose game that you appreciate the most? Definitely Natasha Hunt from England Obviously know a bit about her World Cup journey from New Zealand Not being in the squad to being selected And being the starting nine for England at the last World Cup So that's definitely one player that I enjoy watching A women's player watching nine But then in the men's game as well Obviously we as South Africa we have some talented scrum in South Africa but also Antoine de Pond is obviously a well nine The way he sees the game the way he plays the game it's a very special player to also just watch and learn from, even in a different country. I think that just leaves me to ask, well, first I want to ask, you mentioned Natasha Hunt there, and I watched her play for Costa Hartbury in the PWR. And when you did so well at the Women's World Cup playing nine, I thought maybe someone in the PWR would be after you, but you've gone back to sevens.

Did you ever have a conversation to go to a club team in the 15s? I actually had a lot of offers this year on the table. Actually five to be exact. Just five. Just five, yeah.

But interesting, obviously nothing from PWR teams. But I think obviously when that opportunity comes, it will come on the right time. But due to national duties, I couldn't accept the offers overseas, and especially the windows that it falls under. but I also think, yeah, and some were 7th's offers, some were 15th's offers. So, yeah, a bit gutted that I had to turn down the offers, but hopefully new runs will come for the next season.

I am very sure they will. God, all this talk about you having to learn how to play 9, Coach Swayze doesn't help because he might play you at 9 one game and then back at 15 another. And I've watched you in games. It depends on the play. Sometimes you're 9, sometimes you're 10, sometimes you're 15, moving around all the time.

You must have the biggest rugby brain of any player. Yeah, I actually have a lot of conversations with Coach Swayze. And it was actually interesting when I heard that Coach Swayze is getting the performance coach offering for the women's game. And I enjoy listening to him, how he sees the game, how he analyzes the game. And I think that's pretty much where I also, you know, find passion in is how to analyze the game.

But like I mentioned earlier as well, I don't watch rugby for the entertainment of it. I watch it to learn. I specifically look at the refs, what they blow for, how they interpret the laws of the game. Because at the end of the day, yes, there's a law book, but everyone's perspective is different. One ref blows for this, where another doesn't, which is also quite interesting at times.

And I think that's why head coaches are on the match officials case so many, many times where you see it. And I think it just comes down to perspective. So it's learning how the refs blow so that when you get into that game, you know exactly, oh, but this ref is very critical, you know, when it comes to breakdowns or things like that. And then obviously watching the game to learn and not just for entertainment. So for me, that's where I enjoy the game.

And also when you're analysing your opponents, you analyse where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are, how you can exploit them on attack, how you can put pressure on them, you know, with defence to stop the strength, to stop the momentum. And I think, yeah, I just, I think I do have a big rugby IQ. Coach Swayze has told me that. I had a ref telling me that I know my laws of the game very well. So, yeah, I take those compliments to really, you know, you know, strive basically from those compliments to just be a better learner of the game.

Well, the way that Coach Swayze has the box play puts a lot of trust in the referees because you're exploiting little loopholes are coming up with these trick plays. Like having a scrum turn into a maul, for example, that puts a lot of trust in the referee to allow that to happen. Yeah, Luke, that's a play that you take your chance on the field and hope the ref doesn't blow it against you because it's also something that you've never seen before. But, you know, with Sarah Cox, I've actually watched the episode where she was on, I think, the Alma Hans, not Hans, Alma Smith's episode in the UK and how she spoke about that. And she didn't know, is it legal?

Is it illegal? But luckily she's an experienced ref. so she could handle the occasion and the situation of the play. And it was exciting to bring some different stunts into the game and see how one of your world-class teams will react to it. And they didn't know what to do.

Paul and I spoke to Coach Schwoz the other day, just a matter of interest, and he told us he phoned Amy Baratron before the game and Amy went to speak to the ref before the game. She did know about it a little bit. So that was quite interesting that Amy Baratrano was there and she thought it was a brilliant plan. So just as a bit of background there. Definitely when he started giving us the game plan and we started to think of it, so we obviously asked the questions in terms of obstruction, if we transfer the ball too early, obviously setting up that more from a scrum.

and we asked all those questions and he said no, he will obviously speak to Amy to find out obviously if it's legal, if it's not legal. And obviously not giving out too much. I guess Amy then went to speak to Sarah to find out what her perspective will be. And then we produced it in the game. Imagine she said, yes, I will allow it.

And then in the game, she blew the whistle and disallowed it. you'd be absolutely furious yeah yeah you're speaking about um you've brought it up um so you talk about the the refereeing calls i remember now you reminded me of it in the france game you scored a try right at the end and the referee took ages on the tmo call and i remember everyone was sat in the stands like what what is going on here because you know with with like with love like you'd lost the game at the time so we were all just like just give the try you know like like what what what was the call even for i can't even remember so they were looking for obstruction from our 12. so yeah so they were basically looking if our 12 with the line that you ran um was it obstruction for me then taking that gap you ran like 70 meters after that Yeah, so I was like, surely. And when they looked at the replay on the screen, I remember looking and I'm like, surely that's not obstruction because the France player was in no realistic position to be able to even tackle me. and even when I broke the line, she tried to pull me from behind and she couldn't.

So even when she tried to tackle me, she couldn't catch me. But I guess obviously the ref must also be looking at her perspective and obviously blow the game due to the exact laws of it. But luckily we obviously got the try and I think that was just nice to finish the game off on a high note and having the final say. And if you had to choose now between 15s and 7s, I know you're a born and bred 7s player and everything else, but 15s World Cup and the likes, what would your preference be? If you had to choose tomorrow, which one of the two would you take?

a difficult one to answer. Like, I enjoy both codes with its respective challenges, but also the type of game that you play is also different within both. But at the end of the day, I say it stays rugby. And I will choose rugby, if I have to say. But I think I enjoy sevens because it challenges you a lot in terms of the endurance that you have to show.

So you have to, you know, speed, the skill set. Yeah, sevens is definitely a different challenge to up 15s and you only get a handful of sevens players that's able to play the sevens game. We spoke to Ruanel the other day and he came from sevens and he said the biggest thing is you're super fit in sevens, but you've got less time in 15s. No matter how fit you are, you know, you just touch the ball and you're basically being tackled. What's the difference between the two of you?

How do you see the difference between the two codes? I think pretty much the same in the sense of that. But tactically, 15s is of course more tactical than 7s. The technicality of 15s in terms of when do you kick, when do you run. Because in 15s, if you play the game in your half, you're going to be in trouble if the team, you know, know turns gets the ball make a turnover um because most teams capitalize on it um so in terms of that first things you you play the territory game and then you look at the the possession game um and with sevens it's more more possession more space um which obviously makes sense.

But also, I think in terms of that, 15s, you have less time to make decisions. You need to make your decision quicker. But the same in sevens. If you look at how teams defend these days, they have massive line speed. But then you have that one-on-one skill.

So it looks like you have a lot of time and space to make a decision, but you actually don't have that a lot of time. So you need to make your decision in split seconds. Otherwise, that opportunity is gone. Obviously, with sevens, it's ideal to score straight of a set phase and not set up phases. With 15s, again, analyzing the game where your analysis is so much deeper in the 15s game, of course, as well.

and you need to play a game plan almost to the T, but also being adaptable within both games. But yeah, I think definitely the tactical game around 15s, then sevens, but also the skill set of sevens in terms of 15s, that's basically the difference. Well, you talked about, you Griffin talked about your tactical, your rugby brain. Do you enjoy the tactical side of it? Do you enjoy a chess match or do you enjoy a race?

That's the kind of thing that I'm asking here. We're so much more technical, 15 men. I definitely enjoyed the technicality of the game, but also that tactical side of the game. Obviously, when I started watching 15s more and then looking at, I always used to look at it, even before I played 15, I'm like, why did I kick so much? until you're in that position where you're like, okay, so you kick for territory gain, but also you need to be smart in the kicks.

You need to find grass. You can't kick it to a person. Then in terms of that, you start learning more about the game and look at it from a technical side of view, but not over-analyzing the game too much because then you actually forget to just play rugby. be. But sometimes it's important to play a chess game because you need to play with your opponents as well.

But sometimes it can be a sprint too. So yeah, it's the best of both worlds basically. Nadine, thank you so much. It was an awesome privilege to have you on here. And what an insightful conversation.

Thank you for making time for us. And sorry that we took so long, but once we start getting into our groove, it's hard to stop us. Thank you. Also, thank you for you guys having me on your platform and just speaking about the women's game and just creating that awareness. We also really appreciate it from the women's perspective and the women's system.

Thank you for what you guys are doing for the women's game. This is the Loose Pass Rugby podcast only on Megaphone Rugby. Thank you.

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