The Stormers' Three Kicking Rules (They Can't Say Out Loud) | Gareth Wright & Imad Khan

Yeah, you know what coaching is like. They say it's like learning for an exam and somebody else writes it. I've always thought of the nine as a bit of a jockey in some ways. And you have a two-ton beast that you're trying to ride and it's a lot bigger than you, a lot stronger than you. You're behind them all and you're trying to slap the right arse and tell them what to do, when to give it to you.

Yeah, I think I got charged down against against less than the best champions cup. And it's not the best feeling. You've got to find an edge that that makes you unique. I think from a kicking perspective, it's a 3F's concept of the first one, but the second one's fixed and then flush it. So to be probably the first to have this opportunity, I think I represent a lot of people besides myself.

And you derive as a coach, I think you derive your joy when you see it all come together through the players' performance on a Saturday. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. How's it everyone? Lekker Rugby Pod. Every day is Derby day, but right now Stormers are winning in the ever-increasing margin of Stormers guests on this pod.

Such that NBA was getting hazed at a press conference in Loftus recently about representing the Stormers Lekker Rugby Pod. But no fear Bulls fans, we're coming back to you very, very soon. Today we have a great duo. We've been doing side-by-side coach and player. Normally we have the coach to calm the player down, keep him in check, make sure that nothing crazy happens.

We decided to flip the script today. And so we have the fabulous Imad Khan. Imik Khan is one of the three most famous Imad Khans in the world, actually, maybe four. There's a Houston International Lawyer, a California neurologist and a prominent journalist, maybe a dentist or two. But he is actually on Google now trending as the most famous Imad Khan.

He is a spellbinding orator. He was the Founders Day Speaker at Bishops. He's the author of the Bishops' Blind Side, a signature move in which he takes off into nowhere and promptly scores or offloads to Sasha. He's 22. He's had 29 box kicks this season, all coached by a fellow named Gareth Wright, the kicking coach, the tea doctor, sort of like a caddy in golf, agonizing with every kick.

rumored to have the most issues of anyone in the Western Cape. I don't know how that happened, but maybe it's because it's nerve-wracking to sit there and watch your pupil enact what you've taught him on the day and not have anything, you know, no control over it. So, welcome to Like a Rugby Pod, Emi Khan and Gareth Wright. Oh, good. Thanks for having us, Harry.

It's great to be on the Rugby Pod and yeah, you know what coaching's like. They say it's like learning for an exam and somebody else writes it. So we talked about the issues, probably more issues than the You magazine, which is a sort of magazine down here in South Africa. But yeah, we're still going strong and great to be on here. You're supposed to be an apprentice this year to seen it all, done it all, Bach Kourbis Reinhardt.

And here you are, you know, starting in big matches and having to wear it. Are you ready? Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I think it was quite an introduction.

So thank you for that. But yeah, like you said, to have him around has actually been super cool, super interesting, just learning from him, grabbing everything I can. And then obviously, I'm lucky enough to get the opportunity now. So yeah, I'm ready. I'm trying to make the most of it and hopefully can contribute to the team as best as possible and as often as possible.

So Imi, you're playing without fear and the fear of making an error, making a mistake is one of the things that cripples us, all of us in life, but also in sport. How do you get in the zone? Is it something that you've kind of just always had or do you do a thing that gets you ready for big matches? I think the main thing would be repetition. I think the fear falls away when you know you've put the work in during the week.

And I think a good week of training, recovery, analysis, all of those things tie into the sense of playing without fear. and I think it would have come along with me throughout my rugby career, but I would definitely say the preparation throughout the week and throughout the last few years and months have been the confidence-building to just go out there and play without fear and just lose that sense of fear. I've always thought of the nine as a bit of a jockey in some ways, and you have a two-ton beast that you're trying to ride, and it's a lot bigger than you, a lot stronger than you. You're behind a mall and you're trying to slap the right arse and tell them what to do when to give it to you You have to develop a voice now like you cannot be meek and mild even though you're the 22 year old new guy No, not at all. I think in the game we play demands a lot of communication a lot of A lot of power with the voice.

So I try to direct that communication the best time as possible but it's not easy like you said when the mall's rumbling forward and you're in between the backs and the forwards and obviously the backs want the ball but obviously the forwards want to keep it in there as well so it's a bit of a tiny balance between the two but I think that's where the sweet spot comes in to feed the backhand but also let the forwards do their hard yards but like I said the communication part is really important so finding the voice initially and then now trying to to direct the communication to the right line have you ever got it sucked into the mall by mistake the vortex has pulled you in i think a few times through throughout the throughout my drag week career but luckily recently recent matches i've been been on the edge just to observe um because i leave that to the big boys um and then when the ball's ready for me to to serve it up i'm right there hopefully it but yeah i'm trying to stay away from that vortex of a moor or a scrum. I'll leave it up to them. So Gareth, you're the kick therapist, the T-Whisperer, and famously you worked with Manny Lubbock and brought him around on almost the approach to the ball. But it's more than just that, right? You're actually kicking the style of kick.

I think I heard you talk in PE about Sasha can kick the ball 48 different ways, but you just want him to master the two ways that you need the most which is get it into touch and get it over the polls um how much do you go into things like you know the box kick and the shape and the chip space and all that stuff yeah look i think from a technical perspective uh we spend a lot of time analyzing the opposition um i think i think that's where you you pick up your most sort of intricacies of how they work and how how you can manipulate space i think that's a big thing and then uh as you said about about the the previous players you know both session and money are phenomenal uh rugby players and they're exceedingly talented so um you know as you as you mentioned you just want them to to kind of uh just get that that sort of balance right of of getting the rhythm and the technique right which is going to give you uh the desired result um with guys like emmy it's it's uh it's a work in progress you So, you know, he's developed massively and he works exceedingly hard, as do all our kickers. I think it's a large basis of the game now and the contestables sort of have come to the forefront. But it's a lot of unseen hard work when everybody buggers off on. You know, the guys are applying their trade and trying to master their craft. So it's rewarding on a Saturday when they get it right.

And when you get fingernails as sort of short as this, then you know you're doing your job right. Yeah, I think I saw Ibi practicing for the polls, and I don't think he missed any when I was watching, whereas Sasha missed a lot. But then I realized Sasha's not aiming to get over the polls. He's trying to hit the actual poll. He's got some sort of game inside himself.

It's too easy just to kick it over. So listen, let's talk about the Cardiff game because it was an anomaly. Stormers retain the highest kicks, also kick the most in the comp, except for Cardiff. So Cardiff and Stormers are sort of weird animals in that they kick a lot both and retain you know 20 22 of the kicks that they put up for contestables So is that but in Cardiff you only kick 15 times total which is you know i don know maybe half of the number you usually kick was that just the way the game played out because you cannot force your game style exactly on a game or was that the game plan um yeah i think cardiff was a it was a tough tough result for us to take i think we we had plans to do better um But, John, I think it's, obviously, I've had game plans, things like that, but I think just the way the game went, it was a bit difficult to get into our kicking shape and our rhythm. Something that obviously the TV doesn't see, but there were pockets.

I know G knows Cape Town Stadium really well, but there were pockets in the corners of Cardiff Stadium, which allows wind to kind of see through from different angles. So that does play a massive factor. It was quite windy, not excusing the types of kicks or the amount of kicks we actually ended up kicking. But yeah, the way the game played out, we probably would have liked to get to the kick a bit more. But that's the game.

I think we should have been better in other areas when the game does boil down to that. But as an overview, I think we could have got to the kick a bit more. But like I said, the game sometimes just doesn't end up flowing that way or other factors affect the types of kicks and the way the ball actually comes out. It's a funny old game, Gareth, because if you have a lot of territory, specifically if you're in the final third, maybe even the 22, you don't kick as much. You know, obviously you're having a go, you're coming around the corner and you always think we're almost there, we're right there.

Whereas in the general play in the midfield, you do your momentum kicks over the top, coffin corner, try to find an edge. Was that the way the game sort of didn't really ever take a shape that I could recognise as a Stormers match? Yeah, I think first you know Cardiff were desperate to get into a top eight and they managed to achieve that at our expense. Obviously, so we weren't too happy about that. You talk about the middle part of the field, we call it the mid third.

I think it was such a hard ball in play that it didn't allow that. And inside the 22, you know, it was one of those sort of games where we would get there and we would go through numerous phases without reward. So, yeah, in fairness to them, I thought, you know, they competed well and they nullified us on the day. But the beauty of sport is you get to get a second bite of the apple in a few days' time and, yeah, hopefully we'll be ready for it. I mean, there are times when you watch Stormers play and you see player groups from high school.

You see some Lundt, Boga, you see Paul Ruiz, you see gym guys, and then you sometimes see a Bishop's Blindside, we're calling it, because it's funny almost. You have you and Sasha and maybe Hartz or Johnny Roche involved. Did you guys actually overlap at the same time at school? Yeah, so Johnny Roche, myself and Saleman Hartzenberg actually all the same age and played rugby together. I mean, with Johnny, I played against him since prep school.

So since we were kids and then later joining in high school, Suleiman as well joined in high school. So since grade eight, we've been playing rugby together, which is absolutely insane. And then I was with Sasha also, he's a year above me. Sasha and Conor Evans are a year above me, but also grew up playing playing with Sasha at the time. And then eventually in my second last year of high school, and same with Conor.

But yeah, we've got a core group which is super cool to have transferred from high school and playing rugby together at school and are playing in a professional environment. I think the friendship is still there and now the rugby connection is also quite cool to have, being on the field with some of your best mates. Yeah, I've got a dream about this, that you know, Conor gets the ball, the line out, it feeds you, goes to Sacha, Johnny makes a break and then Hartz finishes off and you all celebrate in the corner, you know, proper bishops try. But that's familiarity. You've all had to make a big jump, you know, into a different world against a completely different opposition, the next level, the travel, all that.

What's been the biggest change for you going from school, from Ike's to Stormers? I just think the level of professionalism, I mean, obviously playing at school, it's, you know, it's more about fun and just playing rugby and things playing with your friends and enjoying every single minute and i think the enjoyment in that part is still very much there but just i would clearly remember going through the ranks so playing playing under 20s playing junior box playing for uct um it's just the each level you play it's just it just ramps up a bit whether it's the the physicality the athleticism of the players the technical ability um so i think the biggest jump for me was was definitely the intensity of everything the intensity of your analysis the the players your teammates um and then having to step up because you want to like i said you want to contribute as best as possible to the team so you need to make sure you you're on par whether it's physically mentally um even emotionally not uh in this day and age of the game um so yeah just the ramped up intensity of every single micro micro group that you that you actually need to be on top of um and now dang it one of the or a high level, it's quite important to make sure that you're on par at every asset of your game. You switch off, you lose at this level, Gareth. You see time after time, you see teams that are doing well and they lose a game and they're trying to analyze it. It's not even the fundamentals, it's that for a five minute period of time, people were thinking about something else or they were were too hung up on what they just did how do you sort of i don't know how do you counsel that with your guys especially around kicking yeah you know your margin for error is so small you know every team has uh has a fantastic analysis department every team has uh world-class coaches every every team has uh world-class players that they coach so you've got to find an edge that that makes you unique um i think from a kicking perspective we like to work on the premise that it's a three Fs.

I can't say the first one, but the second one's fix it and then flush it, you know. So you've just got to move on to your next job if you make a mistake. I mean, that's in every organization that it happens, whether it be business or sport, but it's your ability to bounce back and go, I suppose, play whistle to whistle. But also you try to create those scenarios during training. I think that's the most important thing that you mentally and physically prepare the players for those sort of circumstances that arise during the game, and you give them the tools that can help cope with it in those situations.

So you ask the casual fan or the new fan, sometimes they hate the box kick. Why are we doing that? You know, we were in a good spot, we were in the middle third. Why are you hoisting this four-second fluttering, wounded duck ball that, you know, only comes our way a third of the time or a quarter of the time? And we know that obviously you have to end your possessions on your terms.

And there are parts of the field that are very dangerous. And also you run out of petrol and you don't have cleaners forever. The box kick is something every team does. Talk us through what the optimal perfect box kick looks like. The hang time, the angle, the tightness to the tram and chasers that you have ready.

So ideally you probably want it to be between 4.5 and 5 seconds. hang time uh 18 to 20 odd meters is your optimal sort of distance and then you know with your chase you want to give your wingers enough opportunity to get in the contest i think that's that's your biggest law change in terms of in the old days when the kick went or a year back uh they used to be we used to call it jockeying or the glove that surround the player now that's after the the contest so it's a simple one-on-one contest so you know getting that balance route of getting in in the contest first and just getting that simulation whether you can get up and compete or whether you have to stay on the ground and make a tackle and try compete on the ground. So that's the sort of intricacies that we work on. And if we can get there, thereabouts, then it means you're in the contest.

Talking about the box kick and everybody shakes their head when they sort of 80 kicks in the game but the game is is is gone towards you know that middle third of the field so at times when you play in europe and i think as south africans we got to learn this by being involved in the united rugby championship as well as the uh old hanekeen cup and artsy investic cup if you if you play too much rugby in your own half because defenses are so well set and organized you're just going to tire your players out and because most most teams are physically adept to to the the norms and standards across the world you're going to get better so you know by putting the ball in the air it gives you an opportunity to win that territorial game but also to get possession back and maybe turn their forwards a little bit more so so that's the mindset around the box kick and it's become an art um it's become an art form on how we work it and and how teams work it so you know when the rugby purist who sits on his couch and he sits on his podcast and he comments on another bloody box kick. Well, it's a way of trying to win territory and possession and potentially sort of look after your forwards. It's also imagining the alternative. So, you know, if you say I'm going to face play from my 22 all the way to their 22, it's this fool's gold. You know, either you break or you don't, but it's not, there's very few instances of a team literally putting together 35 phases without a knock-on, a penalty or something else, right?

So you have to always acknowledge that that's just part of the beast. You cannot ask your forwards to keep cleaning 25 times. Yeah, I mean you take a guy like François Mallebe or Nierkling Fischer or some of those big boys who are involved with us, you know, they're 130 plus kilograms and you're asking them to hit 25 racks in the space of five minutes, then you still still got to ask them to go and maul and then to go and scrum and to do their defensive work so but by doing that you're actually killing your pack if you overplay so it's a way of of sort of helping your pack uh sort of nurture energy and and pull that energy into different directions and i think the beauty of it is you know if you if you have a successful sort of aerial contest and an aerial game you know your forwards are the first ones to to give the guys like emmy a slap on the back and you know give him a high five afterwards because you know they're just as integral to to to the aerial contest and the wingers and the nines getting it on a ticky uh big smoke told us that he could do that all day long so don't worry just keep doing it for him uh any uh when i look at that box kick and i'm i'm putting myself in your shoes yes four or five seconds 18 yeah yeah yeah i just don't want to get charged down i'm just thinking i'm charged down What do you do around that to make sure your body position? Because I see that your style is a bit like that. It's a bit of a French action where it whips around.

You're not doing over your shoulder, bowlder holder, but you're doing a bit of a diagonal. Yeah, I think I got charged down against Les in the Champions Cup and it's not the best feeling. So we try to put things in place. I mean, obviously we've got our lengtheners and things change in time. I mean, I know a couple of years back, we used to have almost like a screen or protector.

But then that compromises different areas of the field. But yeah, it is quite technical. I think if you're kicking, there's two sides of the field you're kicking at. So we're trying to create as much space as possible and trying to, I think G always talks about the snap. So trying to make the snap or the time from ground to boot as quick as possible.

because you do come in a lot of pressure through getting charged down and things like that. So, you know, it is quite technical. I would say the snap, like G speaks about a lot, is very important, getting that as quick as possible. And then also just the technical part of ball drop and your follow-through and how you finish. I think that depends where the ball goes as well.

So trying to get that as quick as possible and then trying to be as still as possible as well. So it's kind of counterintuitive. But when you get it right and the consistency is there in the process, I think that's where the consistent box can come in. But it takes a lot of time, a lot of practice and a lot of analysis as well. And in the game, it's also a different thing.

There's other pressures. The rest time you to use it, the right's under pressure. So if you can stick to your process, that helps a lot. Looks like to me that you keep your head down, Kovac does too, you know, follow through. The easiest way to charge down is to look up and look at the guy charging you down.

That takes discipline. I've also seen that lately you've been talking to the ref a little bit more. I like that you were pointing out to the ref that Cardiff had lost their bind. I think that's an important job of Scrum Off is to always be yapping. so when you're doing that have you ever gotten chat back from the ref to say hey calm down yeah definitely I think that's more of a natural thing where you just see something and try to point it out in a respectful way but I probably should work on that because you don't want you don't want your line trying to make the ref upset or talk out of line but for me I think it's just like it's a natural thing of seeing something and more of a question to the ref but I think as long as it's respectful and in the right, done in the right manner.

I think it's more bringing awareness to what I'm trying to do and to what the ref may see as well. But usually, and I should probably leave the chats up to the captain and try and have the right channels. But usually, yeah, when it does happen, the ref will either, the other tells me, look, no more, none of that anymore. And then I know that's my strike, those strikes done. But generally, if it's done the right way, they appreciate just open communication.

But like I said, I leave the talking to the captain. That's the best channel, actually. Well, it's important to be right and you were correct in that moment. So the refs have to go do their review and you'll build a credibility if you're not the boy who cried wolf. So what's your family background in rugby?

Were you the first to play at a representative level? Like how does it work in your family? family? I think my, yeah, I grew up in a very sporty family. I think my dad played provincial rugby in a time in South Africa when it, you know, was separated through apartheid and things like that.

So, yeah, he played provincial rugby and played club rugby. And I think there's, in South Africa, you know, the club rugby has got massive history and massive traditions. So to be probably the first to have this opportunity, I think I represent a lot of people besides myself, which is why I really do appreciate the privilege that I have. I mean, there's so many rugby players in South Africa, in the world, and I get to do it in a time and playing in a brilliant team in a time where I'm allowed to, unlike previous legends of rugby who weren't able to. And then my mom always says I get my rugby skills from her.

So she's always there, always got good comments to make and good criticism. But yeah, I've got a very supportive family and they've helped me out through my career. Now, mom's a really good tactfulist because they're going to chase you around the house to keep you hiding and then grabbing things. Gareth, I mean the irrepressible joy that Emi shows on the pitch has got to be great for you as well. He's playing full bore and that's what you want from your players, right?

To express themselves. Yeah, absolutely. And you derive as a coach, I think you derive your joy when you see it all come together through the players' performance on a Saturday. Saturday. So that's where you sit back in the challenge room and you have your drink of preference and you think, shit, that was a good week.

That was a good week. I executed what we wanted them to do. And, you know, that's a joy of sport and that's a joy of rugby because all that hard work is culminated on a Saturday or Friday. So, yeah, it's really gratifying to see it when they get it right. And you know when it does come together it a joy to watch Let talk about the balancing of the emotions You know this is a Bulls Stormers pod for the most part and early doors We were happy they were sad Then we were sad they were happy.

Obviously, the loss of Chippy was huge across the pole over the whole club, but also the results on the field weren't spotty. They were up and down, some volatility ending. What do you do in this situation just to sort of say, okay, but that was that season. Now's this season, you know, it's playoffs, it's mock-outs. It's a whole different thing.

We're in. You know, we play three good games, we're there. Is that how you approach that, Emi, or is there a different way to look at this? Yeah, I think the season has been, it's come down to the time where, you know, it's like you said, it's player of rugby and it's super important. And so I think the mindset right now is actually just taking what's in front of us and not worrying about what has happened and what's coming after that.

Because the most important game is the game coming up against Cardiff next week. So the mindset around that would be to focus on getting everything right in this moment. Because there's no benefit in looking too far forward. And there's probably lessons looking back. and we can use that to hopefully get good results going forward.

But right now our focus is to really put all our efforts and do everything that aligns into winning the next match, which is an important one. And there's no fears for this camp of traveling. Obviously, great results on the road this season. So there's none of that. So Gareth, obviously, in a microcosm, you're doing this all the time.

You're hitting G-forces up off the floor. You're grunting. and then suddenly you've got to make a kick. You've got to make your heart rate come down. You've got to breathe.

You've got to think. The universe is just right here, right? This is me and the ball and the pulse. And calm someone down enough to do that. Is it almost like that's the way the Stormers are looking at the playoffs right now?

It's just a game against Cardiff at home. Yeah, and if you don't get through a quarterfinal, there is no semifinal. There is no final. So you can't worry about what's going to post that. You know, it's the quarterfinal, which is the most important sort of fixture.

And all our effort and energy will go into that. As you mentioned, you know, we had a devastating loss in Chippy. And, you know, we all suffered as a collective at the club. And, you know, it hit a lot of our whole organisation that was said exceedingly hard about that. So, you know, I suppose, you know, to honour him, we would like to perform in a manner that he would be proud of us.

So, you know, coupled with all the other sort of roads that lead into it. But, you know, he was such an integral part of our team. And, yeah, we all took a huge bump with his passing. And I think the players are acutely aware of what lies ahead of them. um but to honor him you know i suppose we we want to uh try and lift the united rugby championship and um you know that's that's part of the puzzle but as you mentioned it's controlling those emotions just refining and and and less white noise if i can call it that and just focus on on cardiff and and get through uh the quarter final but but all roads lead into the dhl stadium in a few days time and uh we want to make sure that we we put our best foot forward to to give ourselves the best opportunity to go as deep as we possibly can in this competition.

That's so right. Uncle Chippy, generous, professional, organized, honorable, kind man, generous man, but also tough. And what you'd want, I think, Emi, is for you guys to go out there and be strong. And isn't it cool almost to get Cardiff again, you know, sort of, let's set that right, go up again against the same guys, strong with the ball, that rock area was just bouncing on that 4G pitch. It was difficult to get any kind of solid, clear, you know, repetitive rucks in a row, right, on that 4G pitch.

Yeah, like I said, it was quite difficult to get into some sort of flow with all the factors contributing to that. So I think we will definitely look at those things and the things that disrupted that flow and we'll try and get to that get try and get that right in this upcoming game and it's not often where you get to play opposition this this um back to back so it's a it's a great opportunity for us to really go out there and and just make make things right and and like you said make it make it right for for came down for for the storm as it should I think we've got a lot to play for, but also to make this team, I think we have a clear understanding of what needs to be done and how it wants to be done. So that would make us all very happy and very proud. But yeah, we need to definitely get back into that flow and that rhythm that we've had throughout the season because I think that's when we're at our best and playing the best rugby and that's ultimately been quite successful for us. It's been absolutely a pleasure to have you on.

There's been all kinds of rumors floating, soap operas floating this week. There's been all kinds of links on Facebook, Snapchat, and it's all been a bunch of noise. I happen to know that a lot of the stuff that people are talking about is absolutely false and that some things people are talking about are entirely normal in a rugby team that's lost and you're upset, you're frustrated. This is normal. So then and you have tensions.

But talk to us a bit about that, Gareth. Any truth to all these soap operatic rumors about players demanding to be traded or cut or fire this guy or that guy? Yeah, I think AI is a wonderful thing. It's all fake news. We got beaten on the day by our side that were better than us.

And that's it. There's nothing else to it. What's written out there and what people, Every person's voice on social media and they're entitled to their opinion, but I can categorically state that it's a lot of rubbish, absolutely crap. So there's nothing to it. We're a happy, settled squad and we have a clear goal in mind.

And I don't believe everything that's written in the media, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, just promise us, no matter how big you get in this game, that you don't get too wrapped up in all that. That's just a bunch of nonsense and noise. Tell us on the party notes, I mean, What do you think about this game coming up? What do you hope to achieve and hope to give to the fans of Western Cape?

I think first and foremost, we want to win. We want to play good rugby and win this quarterfinal coming up. Like I said, make things right and make everyone proud. I think personally, I would just love to contribute to the team and just put the right foot forward so that everyone else can succeed as well because that's all our goals. We all want to win trophies and we all want to do it together.

So, yeah, I just hope that we can all come together, stay strong and find that flow and find that good rugby that we play. And just make Western Cape proud, make the Stormers proud and then make each other proud through contributing to the team and for that goal that we all want to lift that trophy, hopefully. Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks, Jarrett.

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