SA Rugby Is Reviewing ALL Competitions. Here's What That Actually Means | Rugby Rundown

Welcome back to rugby rundown, our weekly news program with Jan de Koonen, renowned rugby journalist, the man that sits in all the press conferences, all the in, you know, behind the scenes things. One of them was the press conference last week, where SA rugby said they're revealing all competitions and the emphasis is on all competitions. You were there, some athletes reported something different to what you heard. Let's talk to me about that. MVA, yes, thank you for having me again.

It's It's always such a pleasure chatting to you. Just context, you know, I mean, the question was asked, and the specific question was asked, does this include the EPCR competitions? So, you know, there was a loaded question with an agenda, but that's fine. I mean, that's every journalist right. You know, they might have heard a rumor.

And then Mark distinctly said, all our competitions. In July, they'll have a meeting where they're going to look at all their competitions. But this has to be seen in a broader picture of, sorry, made it clear, they want to see a global calendar. They want to move into a global calendar. So they have a space because the moment South Africa's players don't have a break, they don't have a rest period.

Because once the Springboks play right through from July with bits and pieces here and there, but they play from July right until November. And then in December, there's European stuff. So, you know, until December, the franchises don't have their spring box. Now they need to use their spring box, and then they've got to rest them in February and March a little bit. And it's a right royal mess.

So the only way to solve this is for Africa to move in line with the Northern Hemisphere schedule. I know it sounds silly, but we need to move there. Play our rugby championship or whatever in February, March, and then our players can rest in October, August, September. So you give them too much. August, when you're done with the July test, those players, just like the English players, will then have a two-month break.

The franchises can have proper pre-seasons. That's the advantage, proper, proper pre-seasons. You have a break for two months, you get into a pre-season, and then September, October, November, then you can start with your games. And I think that's the context that Mark said. Okay, so what does that mean?

Like you just mentioned, the July test will still remain on the calendar. We're all speculating now. And then the November ones will also stay on the calendar, obviously because of the nation's championship, I suppose. So it basically opens up the August-September window. And like you said, Jan Ackerman has also said many times with Super Rugby, it was such a clear schedule.

You know, you played and you stopped and you had a bit of a rest and you came back in the new season. So clear and well-defined. The problem that we have is that we saddled with this problem now. Our players are effectively playing a 12-month schedule or calendar. And it's not our own making.

We were kicked out of Super Rugby, if I'm not mistaken. And we were forced to go look for different competitions to play in. And now we're paying the price for New Zealand not being willing to change the calendar. New Zealand and Australia, why would they not want to change the calendar? I mean, it's such an obvious thing.

It's a no-brainer. What's the problem? Because they don't have competition in December and January. Remember, they don't play Super Rugby until March, April. That's when their season starts.

So they have that period that they always had in Super Rugby. So they have the Super Rugby season that runs until about June. Then they've got the July internationals. Then they've got a bit of a break in the Rugby Champs. I think it's about like a three-week or a four-week break, not even that long.

Then the Rugby Champs and then November, and then they've got a two-month break. So they want to, they're the sneakers. And it's not beat around the bush. The problem here is New Zealand and Australia, the kissing cousins of the South Pacific. You know, seriously.

And when people say we got kicked out of super rugby, it was literally during COVID. New Zealand and Australia decided they no longer need South Africa. They've got this wonderful idea, this wonderful competition, they're going to play amongst themselves and they decided and what they did is but they knew for a long time that africa was looking north so we all we weren't angels either we were looking north and we were talking it was a definite conversation that was being had they said to us we no longer need you so africa said well thank you now we're gonna we move just move quicker you know so so Did they kick us out? Yes. Were we going to move?

Yes. That whole process just moved forward. So we went north very much quicker than we originally anticipated. You know, we were waiting for a proper break in the broadcast schedule and that sort of stuff. So all those technical things.

And COVID came and New Zealand threw their toys and thought they were clever. And now everybody in New Zealand says, listen, this is not working for us. We want South Africa it back but I don't think we'll ever go back because we're very happy where we are at the moment. More money and you can see at the New Zealand stadiums except for one or two games in a 15,000 seater they'll have a sellout in Christchurch or they might have a few people in Auckland. Wellington struggles to get 15,000.

Hamilton doesn't even sell out and they have 15,000 seater stadiums. So they've got problems and I think the same applies to Otago or the Highlanders. You can look at the Australian games. They can spin it as they want, but their crowds are up and their TV audience is up. They are up, but they're still below what the URC is doing.

They are way below what the URC is doing. So why would we go to an inferior product for less money? We had to share because everybody now sees in the URC the draw cards of African teams. There's more money, more TV money. There's all sorts of things that benefits the URC.

so why would you go back and go share all your value with New Zealand and Australia and at one stage we were propping up Japan as well the the Sunwolves you know that entire mess when we had the 18 team friend conference system that was it was an entire unworkable mess something I never got a liking to so I can't see us want to go back to that sort of mess where New Zealand and Australia is always Australia always looking for because they're competing with so many other sports you know i mean rugby union australia is if they're in the top five they're lucky i think they're outside the top five i mean i mean soccer and uh i mean tennequit would even be better than rugby union more more attractive than rugby union in australia yeah so yeah i can't see us going back there no i don't think we're going back there i think we're going away from sanzo altogether looks like i mean that includes maybe dumping the rugby championship if they don't play along I've got a feeling that we we're calling their bluff a little bit and it's going to see who blinks first yeah okay so New Zealand doesn't want to move to that six nations window because that overlapses for rugby super rugby is like a provincial tournament just move it out a month or two and then take a break the same time as everybody else August September baby the point is what are you going to do if you don't have a rugby championship anymore or if those primocks don't play in the rugby championship anymore you're going to bring Japan in I think those primocks are in a very very good position We saw their financials just announced last week as well, how healthy they are financially compared to what New Zealand and Australia are, for example. I think South Africa's got maybe a bit of the upper hand here, but are they going a bit too far, do you think, of calling this bluff? Let's talk about the Sanzar relationship specifically, and we'll talk about alternatives about Europe just now. But, you know, can they afford to really walk away from the rugby championship? That is the biggest thing, the greatest rivalry tour is now built around it.

Can we really, you know, disturb the relationship with New Zealand specifically? the greatest rivalry tour is the perfect window for us to i know it's only every second here at this stage for fear but we've got that and we can tour australia if we want to we can bring australia in so so that will be ongoing it's just not going to be a rugby championship you know so you there's different ways of getting around that i think you you read uh before we came on here you read me a little line and a statement from Saurim. If you just want to read that line for me again, I want to explain something about that line This is the important thing that you mentioned because SRHP felt that necessary to send out another email or press releases after those articles started appearing and the speculation started soaring and what people started whispering about things they said the following and i just quoting one line from it um it's a couple of lines sr rugby planned some time ago to host a strategic planning session of its members and the directors of rugby to undertake a thorough review of competitions and focus on identifying a workable solution to the pressing issue of player welfare of South Africa's players. This will take place before the end of July. It is in response to the need to find a competition schedule that does not compromise the health of players or the performances of teams, and this is now the key words, in the absence of progress to align to a global schedule, a global calendar.

There we go. That's what I wanted to say to you. That's where I started off, and we should have read this first, but we get a lot of global schedules. Saru wants to move north. We've moved north with our franchises.

we want to move north with not necessarily just play in the northern hemisphere but I think you're right when you say they're calling New Zealand's bluffs if you don't then we're just going to rethink the rugby champs what do we get out of the rugby champs we've still got lots of travel Mark Alexander mentioned about travelling to travel in November they've got to book six months in advance travelling to Australia is even worse Australia and New Zealand and unless we turn that rugby champs into a condensed four-week or a three-week schedule where everybody plays everybody every saturday for for three quick weeks and the tournament's over i don't think it's going to work so i think are they calling sunsars bluff maybe yes but there's more value for africa to seek alternative competitions i mean we can go play all sorts of teams in in international teams in we can play Argentina in February, you know, there's ways for us to stay active, and our players will still play in the Northern Hemisphere. So I think that one little line to be aligned with the global calendar, everybody wants to move to a different calendar, which aligns with the Northern Hemisphere. That's where the money is France, England, Europe, maybe America, North America, that's where the money is. If you're struggling financially, as New Zealand is, because I used up their equity deal completely that to take another loan from them and they're going to be paying back in perpetuity paying that loan back that they took from that american company so silver lake that silver lake deal uh there's nothing silver about that like it's very dark deep dark hole where new zealand's money is and that's why i see somebody mentioned this morning about the asg what happened to asg the best move the franchises could have made is to prevent that from going ahead because we would have been in the same situation as new zealand these guys are owning all our rights and then we sitting there now mark alexander and uh they can sell their rights the image rights and all their rights on the open market and they get all the money so the broadcast deal we already know that supersport and canal plus has come to an agreement so saru's broadcast rights are signed in and sealed in locked in for the next five years so so that sort of financial stability is what New Zealand and Australia doesn't have at the moment because they broadcast. In Australia, they hardly get any TV money.

They will tell you how much money they get, but it's not comparable to what South Africa gets in terms of value and what they get out of it. So I think they're definitely making a mistake by not moving. It's going to cost them more than it's going to cost anybody else. Yeah, just before I move on, interestingly enough, for the first time this year or last year, the revenues from non-broadcasting surpassed that of broadcasting for SA rugby you know the commercial deals and sponsorships and stuff surpassed the tv rights that's interesting i just want to ask you another question um you know when we were younger there was saying that said if you play hard to get you get nothing so if that africa now calls their bluff and be out of the rugby championship i mean really argentina in february is that really going to have the same kind of a pool that all black next test might have. So the obvious, more obvious, I suppose, better solution, but I think we're not going to be welcome at all, is maybe to join the six unions, six nations as a seventh nation.

But I mean, the Europeans don't even like us playing in the European Cup. How are they going to ever welcome us into the six nations? I mean, you know where I'm going. So if you play, you're bluffing a little bit and then they call you a bluff. What now?

You know, we might be caught short here. Well, they might also be caught short. Just remember, if we move, the traction that the rugby champs has is south africa you get the world champion suddenly gone so now what have you got what are you left with the bledish look up you know maybe maybe argentina feels like traveling to new zealand australia all the time for a bit of test rugby or they can come and play with south africa we can you know we can get a japan we saw how much the japan game you you play a couple of games at tweaking them on the weekends that there's no uh rugby champs or six nations games at Twickenham, you can play some very interesting teams. You can do doubleheaders at Twickenham. There's lots of things you can do to keep the Springboks active.

Yes, we don't have New Zealand and Australia, but there's other ways of getting that. It's going to be interesting, but I think as Mark Alexander said, I think there's some tough decisions to be made, and those tough decisions will be made, because it's important that we... He said it repeatedly. He said, you can't keep going back to the boardroom with the same starting point. At some stage, we need to start moving forward.

You know, we finished, and the next time we meet, we've got the same. We're starting the same point. Okay, let's start a blank sheet. Let's start a – there's that old saying, if you do the same thing over and over and expect different results, it's an example of idiocy. Well, the other side of that coin is that they've got a lot of people hot under the collar was the fact that we might withdraw from the European Cup competitions, the Challenge Cup and the Champions Cup.

And SRF was, I think, very quick to move and to quell that speculation, specifically with that press release. And Marco Mazzotti also made it very clear that if South Africa withdraws from those competitions, he's going to stop writing the checks. He's not going to fund it. And I know that might have been a bit speculative. Do you think there's any truth to the rumour that we might be moving?

What would the idea be? I mean, to play against Deleuze, Edgar Happen said to me that a sold out lofters against the stormers makes less money than a round of 16 match for the bulls against Duluth for example why would you want to withdraw from that competition I agree with you that's a very speculative narrative and I understand and I'm going to say it again the question was asked does these include and it is a loaded question does this include the EPCR tournaments it's a valid question but it's a loaded question and mark alexander's answer was we will look at all our competitions so and the the going back to that uh line if we want to align with a global competition with a global calendar then we don't move out of europe because the only place where we're not in line with the global calendar is in sansa is in the rugby champs the rest of our competitions are all aligned with the global calendar already so i i think that um maybe missed the boat or maybe it was an agenda and somebody wanted that answer and they didn't get the answer so i don't foresee us leaving europe because there's too much money we just became full partners why on you know you just have to use a bit of logic we just became full partners of epcr and urc so why would you give that up when you already get more and we're going to go back. So we'll give all that we get up in Europe and the money and the TV value that you get to go back to Southern Hemisphere Super rugby, which is now so diluted and it's got no value. And we have to build it up again to what it was. So now I can't foresee that happening.

Yeah, and the teams are falling by the wayside. I mean, Manus was out and, you know, it's probably a matter of time before the others start falling failing as well. Let's move on. I talked about Marko, was after the sharks. Lots of movement at the sharks.

Lots of new signings and a couple of surprise departures. And Marvin Ori was at the Bulls last time. And then I know you went to the Storm after the sharks I never heard from him again Now he out the door again Talk to us about the departures firstly Let start with Krims Leroux Milan Sia Kulisi Jean Smyth. They're all moving. That's all known.

Marvin Arie, for me, is an interesting one because he hasn't got a club signed yet. Nobody has said yet where he's going. And that thing didn't say where he's. So I think Marvin Arie is an interesting one for me. Definitely.

I mean, Sia, we know we're coming is coming to the Stormers. Grant is going to Japan. La Rue Milan is going to Cardiff. Jean Smith is going to Benetton. Jean Smith, Franco Smith's son.

Yeah. Exactly. But I can't remember if he was actually born in Italy. Wasn't one of his sons born in Italy? I think it was Franco.

Jean was born in Italy, yes. Because he's going back to Benetton as well yeah yeah so yeah yeah so and then you know but yeah so so marmon or you know the the guy's a bit long in the tooth he's a great servant of the game he was a good luck at his time uh you know he was a springbok and he did added a lot of value especially in 2019 world cup you know his work the work that he's done and i'll never forget how russian him spoke about his the work that he that in the build-up to test, as the opposing, you know, he reads the opposition so much, so he knows what's going to happen, the opposition is going to do. It's a bit like Victor Matfield, also brilliant at reading line-outs, reading opposition line-outs and studying line-outs. And that was Marvin or his real value, the line-outs. Maybe he wasn't the most physical, but, you know, he was still a very good and a valuable player.

But I think maybe it's time for him, maybe he's planning to hang up his boots, but I'm just speculating. But I mean, I can't see who will take him back. The Bulls has no need for Marvin Arie again unless they're desperate for a third-line lock just in case, you know, or a carry-cup lock. Isn't that what he did last time in any event? He was just a carry-cup lock.

So I don't think the Stormers is in need for Marvin Arie. I mean, he comes from here. He was at Tiger Berkett School with Eben. So, you know, maybe he's coming back to Cape Town and maybe play some curry cup rugby for them. But there's no indication of where he's going.

And I don't think he's going to go back overseas. But what I want to say is, I mean, if you look at all those departures, then you look at the signings. That in itself is significant. Even Van Sijlis, Scrum Off, so that's replacing Grant. Thomas de Tuy, it's no wonder the other props are going because they know they're not going to get game time.

Thomas can play both sides. And now he's starting to throw in in the lineups at Barthes. you know, you can all three front row positions, you know. You know, he could be the Malcolm Marks, because he's a good carrier. He's a very mobile player.

Maybe not as mobile as Malcolm Marks, but, you know, he can do that, you know. The other, the interesting for me is Stefan Lovitz, the lock, you know, that's probably why Marvin is moving on. And then Gianni Lombard, that one puzzles me a little bit, because Gianni Lombard's been injured all the time. He was so injured at the Stormers, then he eventually left and he joined the Lions and he's constantly injured here as well. He's not a bad player, he's a talented player but he's just never lived up to his promise that he showed as a youngster.

It puzzles me a bit but maybe sometimes a player needs to move to another union, change the scenery and then it becomes good. And then Cameron Dawson prop, that's also but Cameron Dawson is a good prop, very seasoned prop. So I think that explains why that other prop is, you know, he knows. He's a talented young prop, that one that's coming to the Bulls. But, yeah, let's see.

Yeah, that's interesting. Gianni Lombard's one of those, the Lions, that seems to have a detrimental effect on fly-off careers. Except for Chris Smith. Yeah, but he went the other way. That's interesting.

Yeah, I'm excited about the Sharks. I think they had the second worst URC season ever. I mean, they had, you know, changed the coach's midway and it looked a bit better for a while, but it seemed to slip down. But it seems like they now have changed their approach to not having all these spin blocks in the books anymore. Eben Ezebiv hasn't played, you know, how much time has he played?

Apart from his ban, he's been injured. And I think they've seen the light there. So let's hope a better season next year. They're out of the Champions Cup, which is bad. Lions are in the Champions Cup, which is a good thing.

But I mean, it's going to have huge implications for them, especially Marcus said he's not going to write checks anymore. and now you're playing in the junior competition no, that's not on let's just talk about the Assanati Glavakania ban, I mean you and I talked about it a little while ago I don't know, this was a shock to me, I didn't expect this what's your take on it? Yeah, I've been trying to get the reasoning behind this because a lot of the information I had was that it was all the fault of the doctor that prescribed this stuff to him, you know, but that doctor was he was sent to that doctor by the line team doctor and when he came back to the lion's team doctor he asked the lion's team doctor again can i take this this is prescribed can i take this stuff lion's team doctor said oh well if he prescribed it you can take it but he asked you know so exactly what happened in that meeting what's the reasoning behind that uh it's very weird so i i think for me i am also puzzled so the starter is from the information I have at hand, I'm also puzzled that it's so long and that it actually was banned for starters and why it's so long. So once the full explanation comes out, that will be worth investigating and seeing exactly what the reason is behind because they will give an explanation to exactly why. So the full written report usually comes out a week or so after.

So it's due any day now. So I'll keep chasing that. and yeah, let's see what happens. I want to ask you a question. I heard a little birdie saying that the doctor on the morning of the trial decided not to testify and that put a big spanner in the works.

Did you hear anything about that? I heard rumors that there's issues with the doctor that he wasn't going to testify and then he was going to testify and then didn't testify. If that's true, yeah, then there's a problem, you know because then what uh the doctor said i can do this and the doctor doesn't confirm that that throws clubberkani under the bus and it might be that that doctor as far as i know the doctors left the lines in any event so um yeah that that may be true that might be why because then clubberkani didn't have proof of what he was saying you know then it's his word against the you You know, but it's, you've got to ask yourself, he wasn't found guilty because the stuff was in his system. He was found guilty because he declared it. He said to them, I took this medication.

That medication included this. And, you know, suddenly they said, hold on a second, you know. So he was found guilty, not because he was, he proved it. So the stuff they found in his system was non-performance. So it's not illegal.

So they never did anything about that. Even though they charged him with it, it was non-performance. Then they charged him with the second one, which he declared. It wasn't found. It was out of his system already.

He just said, I took this medication. You know, honest guy, you know, he thought he wasn't clear because, I mean, he did speak to the doctor. So there's something very strange about this. I want to take you back to the original statement that Saru sent out. When they said he withdrew from the Springbok team, they put out a statement and they made it pretty clear that he took medication prescribed by a physician that was appointed to look after the welfare of the players.

So that was Saru's statement. So they made it pretty clear that he took the medication because it was prescribed by a physician that was appointed to look after the welfare of the players. And that's the crux of the matter for me. That the thing that puzzles me Why is nothing done by this doctor Maybe something he still going to do maybe maybe doctor knew and that why he didn testify if he didn testify we again speculating because i don't have until we get the full written statement we will know if he testified or not so until we get that full written statement we won't know but if if there was something that doctor sorry i can incriminate myself and then decide hold on a second i'm you You know, maybe some clever lawyer said, listen, you better watch it. Because if you say anything about this, you know, the medical council can come after you.

And do you know if they're going to appeal it? I mean, this is a huge setback for him. 18 months, going to miss the World Cup. He has to forfeit all his match fees that he's earned since the day that his suspension was allowed or the fact that he was going to be investigated. It's going to have a massive impact on him.

For him to stay active when he can't play rugby, you know, that's going to take a lot of discipline. So the three-week period, I asked about appeals, and on three occasions now I was told we can't say yay or nay until the appeal period has surpassed. It's a three-week. He's got three weeks to, and I think it's this coming Friday, if I'm correct, the three weeks up. So sometime this week he needs to say yay or nay whether he's going to appeal.

So that's something that we've got to, maybe next week we've got an answer for you if he's going to appeal or not. I'm just thinking, you know, if I go rob a bank, for argument's sake, and nobody knew that I robbed the bank. But then I put out a statement and say, listen, sorry, I robbed the bank. You know, isn't that what happened here? You tell your mate and he tells the cops, yeah.

You know, sorry, say again? So you tell your best mate and he goes and tells the cops. No, even I, I go to the police station and say, listen, I didn't mean to, but I robbed the bank. you know or I thought I was withdrawing money from the ATM but it ended up that I actually robbed the bank or something like that the point is the fact that he admitted to something that was actually against the rules doesn't excuse the fact that he broke the rules that's what I'm getting at yeah his argument was always that he asked if there's anything in this system that he's not supposed to take so he took the prescription back to the team doctor and the team doctor cleared it and told him take it if that guy prescribed it take it i would have said the team doctor had to check what's in there in that prescription because the other physician was not necessarily familiar with sporting codes and sporting drug regulations so it is a very curious case and i've been following it all along and i've asked a lot of questions and it is a very curious case the whole thing centers around what exactly that the doctors say to Club of Kanye and what did Club of Kanye and the doctors? The doctor didn't testify, obviously.

But what did Club of Kanye say in a hearing? So all that stuff, when we get the full written report, that's going to make for another very interesting story because that will reveal a lot to us as to how this all transpired. The question I'm asking is because next time what's going to happen, somebody takes a forbidden thing that's definitely against the rules and all he says is, no, the doctor told me I could take it. You know, the fact of the matter is the rules are the rules. so I suppose that's what's behind it anyway let's move on just lastly the World Cup our esteemed Minister of Sport has now decided we must host the World Cup Mark Alexander sort of scoffed at it there doesn't seem to be too much love lost between those two but what's going on there yeah look this I think Mark Alexander's words were saying more and a lot of times he used wording and getting very clever with that using the wording by telling you what's actually going on but you have to read between the lines so he said the minister so this was mark's it was he's the minister he can say what he likes i don't have to agree with that that's what he didn't say you know so he's the minister he can say what he likes i don't have to agree with that he says and then him and ryan went on to explain exactly why sat africa can't afford to host the world you have to put up 700 well by the time that the um america one in 2031 comes around the american world cup comes around the expected profit for you remember you must guarantee uh world rugby a profit of 100 million or 1 billion 1 billion dollars now we're talking us dollars you're not talking rands so you got times that by 16 or 17 whatever the rand exchange rate is you know so you're talking about 16 or 17 billion rand guarantee so that gayton mckenzie ever sit back for a second and think what he was saying or was he just a typical politician just flapped his mouth flapped his lips uh and that's my feeling is he was saying the thing to win some political brownie points uh and you know created a big storm you know so we are definitely going to hold the world cup no you're not going to because we'll like we won't afford it to you won't award it to you because you can't make any money here so so rean pointed out that by the time the 2035 tournament comes around that's guaranteed it's probably going to sit at 1.

3 billion again times it by 16 or 17 you know the rain might be back to 20 by then you know so so ask yourself where are we going to get all those 20 where are we going to get 20 billion from to guarantee world rugby a profit you know 20 billion rand so so he wants to get 200 million here 200 million there he's not even going to get close to it who's going to put up let's say for argument's sake to guarantee the initial guarantee is about 10 million 10 billion rand minimum of 10 billion rand for world rugby to even look at us who's going to put up that money no sponsors which south africa doesn't have sponsors big enough you'll have to go into the international one you can't you can't take remember you can't take sponsors because world rugby's got all the sponsors for that tournament you gotta give them clean stadiums that's the the big thing that's always you know people fight with me about this oh this is called uh dhl stadium or vodacom stadium or it's called uh emirates airlines park and all that rubbish it's called ellis park cape town stadium loftus fairs felt because if you host a world cup what is that name that's a that's a name that you have to so you're gonna offer them clean stadiums without sponsors you're gonna have a clean stadium without any perimeter sponsors and a certain distance from the stadium, you can't say in the streets and put up all sponsors. When I say clean stadium, they mean clean stadium. Because they put up all their promotions and their sponsors there, because that's where they make their money. So they take all the commercial value out of the tournament. That's why you've got to afford.

So now you're going to... So think about this, and this is what I ask. So you have to upgrade all our stadiums. None of our stadiums are... Even the Cape Town Stadium is not up to standard at the moment for a World Cup.

So now you're going to go upgrade all our stadiums. So about six or eight stadiums that you're going to upgrade for the tournament. That's going to cost you billions. The infrastructure, you need to make sure there's enough hotels in the area. You know, if you're going to play a game in Nelsprite, can you host 10,000 people in Nelsprite?

So it's all that infrastructure, you know, transport, public transport. We don't have public transport to speak of. People just don't think logically about this. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have the money to build the infrastructure.

Our economy is down the toilet. And yeah, so I think Mark, Alexander and Rian said, you keep talking, we'll just live in the real world. No, I agree. It's a pipe dream, like you said before. Yeah, definitely.

Sorry, Kate. Thank you, but no thank you. Anyway. Keep flapping your lips. Somebody will buy your story.

yeah well somebody will hear it nobody will buy it anyway Jan thank you we'll talk about it next week maybe we have more news about us and Arty next week then we'll also know about the semifinals or the quarterfinals coming up next week lots of rugby to talk about as well thanks man appreciate it it's a pleasure and always fun Thank you.

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