New All Blacks’ Coach Dave Rennie's Secret Struggle (According to Martin Devlin) | Lekker Rugby Pod

I asked this question to him in the closed door thing, is that what you're going to bring back? And he just nodded, looked at me and he said, I call it brutality. And this was his quote, I'm not interested in flashy Instagram plays. I'm not interested in that. You know, a guy that does something on the field in a super rugby game, before you know it, it's on Instagram.

And everyone's going, put him in the All Blacks because he did this. He said, I'm not interested in that. I had him selected to start against the Stormers in the first URC game. Those were his words. So you've got a CEO that's saying, because of the rules, this guy can't play.

You've got a coach that hasn't even started coaching yet that's already selected him for the first game on that tour. I called it a conflict. I've been criticised for calling that a conflict. I don't see how it is anything other than a conflict of two views. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod.

Only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the Lekker Rugby Pod and what a pleasure. We've got Martin Devlin back. Martin Halser, early morning in New Zealand, late at night in South Africa and somewhere in the middle of a hurry. Welcome back, man.

yeah thank you so much been very much looking forward to this love coming on with you guys and obviously what we're three months away from the rivalry tour so yeah temperature rising here in new zealand heat building a lot of conversation about it i mean it's it's it's obviously the thing we're all working towards so uh hello to you and hello to harry marty we understand that you've been having some uh chats with the incoming all blacks coach dave rennie and we're eager to hear about it. I know that there's a lot of things that were just bothering you about a year ago and I'm interested now to hear if it's coming the right way, if you have more confidence now after speaking with Dave. Yeah so on Tuesday New Zealand time the media Rat Pack we were invited to NZR HQ in Auckland for a sit down with both the coach and Mike Blair the attack coach and met him for the first time. Steve Lancaster is in that room as well the new CEO of New Zealand Rugby and And so it was a round table. We got about 45 minutes where we're all allowed to chat, ask questions.

And that's kind of the closed door bit. And then we had an official stand-up press conference after that. So, look, there's no real trade secrets spoken. There was a couple of things said about a couple of individual players, which I won't repeat just to respect the coach's privacy, because when he did say them, look, they would be headlines if we said them. So rather than bust that, all of us kind of promised that we'd keep that indoors.

But I tell you what, it was just really good. The first thing is that the privilege of sitting down, as I'm sure you guys always get a kick out of this as well, when you're in the company of the All Black coach, and he's right there, Harry. He's right where you are. He's right where you are, M. Doven.

And I never get used to the fact, I'm 62, but I never get used to the fact that here am I in this meeting with this guy, and I'm getting to ask him questions, and I'm standing this close to him. He's from Upper Hutt, where I grew up. and his best friend is the guy that I went to school with uh so you know we've had a little bit in common and have known each other obviously connected through you know we're not friends obviously but we're connected through the fact that we've you know been in and around each other for 20 something years so yeah it was just and it's it's very New Zealand this is very New Zealand where everyone knows somebody else through someone else it's kind of like the jokers that we've all been to the same party in Pai Kaka Rihiki you meet in London you've never met this oh you were at that party I was at that party and kind of so it has that feel to it look it was and it was very friendly um it wasn't in no way kind of confrontational because there's been nothing up until this point you know to kind of warrant anything like that like you know we're all at the moment just eager to find out what his plans are what his thought processes are he's still gathering his team around him do remember also that Dave Rennie's still in Japan at this stage so he'd come back for this and he's gone back to Japan where his club is still in contention for the Japanese League so he doesn't actually arrive back in New Zealand till the end of that and the final thing I'll say on this bit is that there's only 10 days between when they all get together and that first test of the nation's championship against France so it's a pretty small window for him and all his crew did you get anything from Dave about why Graham Henry has been added as a selector and and what does that even mean like what does that what's the process of selection look like from that standpoint it's not the first time this has happened ian foster had grant fox in the background and steve hansen had grant fox in the background uh these are selectors that won't do a lot of public talking if any public talking at all graham henry's done a couple of little chats after that uh after it was announced uh i think it's a wise move it's to provide an outside voice and outside lens but also somebody with vast experience you're talking about a guy that coached the all blacks for what from 2004 to 2011 won a world cup had his own ups and downs of course uh but he just watches so much rugby graham henry and he's got eyes on the whole time dave rinney actually said when he asked him about it he said the first thing that ted said was look i've got a list of 60 players you know this guy's 79 years old and he's watching every single game he's got a list of 60 players so i think what it is is it's and it's it's easy now to look back and criticize scott robertson and i don't want to do that you know because we feel we really do feel in new zealand not we've moved on but it it part of i think one of the mistakes he made was having no one from the past in in his group he kind of transported the crusaders guys put them in the all blacks and i always feel i don't know what you guys think about this but i always feel that connecting to the past and and especially people who've done it and won it and had that experience is invaluable. And I just think he's looking at a pair of eyes that are looking in from outside that won't be around him the whole time. But when you're talking about selecting players, if you've got a group of five or six or key people around you, they're all looking at the same.

Sometimes it's really good to get a voice from outside that has a lot of experience and says, actually, I'll tell you what, I'm looking at that guy and I'm seeing something different. But structurally, it's weird to me. Is it like a veto? I mean, obviously, the coach would come up more with the plan. for the next two or three weeks the opponents and then maybe ted's the one looking over the shoulder and saying no you know or now the bench configuration surely it's not ted sitting down and saying here's my 60 players no it's not and i do remember steve hansen saying this to me that you know some nights these discussions went into the night other times they all agreed it's just three voices and i i presume there's some horse trading that goes on with this i've always thought orders it a two to one vote or does the coach who's the coach get the ultimate veto vote and say i will whatever you two guys are saying it's my decision in the end that's how i would figure this would go i don't know how russie does it but if it's me in this position i want to hear those voices but ultimately i'm the guy that's actually in the firing on and i'm the guy that's going to make that call and that's how i feel dave dave will probably do it which player groups do you think are the most in flux there i'm like from the outside i'm looking at midfield and saying I don't agree with the all-black selections, the midfield for a while.

And the other thing is the use of the bench, not just the configuration of the bench, but the timing thereof and not looking at more innovative strategies and perhaps maybe the third lock and blindsider. Those are my areas where I would think Razor maybe was a bit too conservative and maybe too predictable. OK, just remind me before we finish this bit of the conversation about what Mike Blair said about the attack coach and how he thinks that we're going to play or what their idea is. But you're bang on. Look, let's start at the front with the big boys.

I think that we're okay for props at the moment, but Dave Rennie did say that we're one or two injuries away in several bits of the squad. 34 players to be named for the Nations Championship, 44 to be taken to South Africa for the rivalry tour. He said that we're one or two injuries away from being really light in certain positions. Okay, front row. At the moment, we haven't seen Tyrell Lomax all season.

He's been injured right with his thumb. Tamaiti Williams is out till at least the end of Super Rugby. Probably won't get to see him for the first couple of tests of the Nations Championship. But I think our propping stocks are pretty good. And you add those two guys to it, and they're really good.

Hookers, we've certainly got two, and perhaps three with George Bell, but some are Sony and also Cody Taylor. And so, again, a lot of experience there. So I think we're OK there. As far as the locks go, we haven't seen anything of Scott Barrett yet. He is still on sabbatical.

apparently he's got some kind of back injury meant to be back at the end of this month the timing was supposedly for the end of super rugby playoffs and that first test we don't know the timing of that but there's him there and that raises questions about the captaincy as well uh but i think lock wise we're okay as well we've got you know a couple that have come through in super rugby josh lord is one name loose forwards harry let's this is where it does get really interesting because there's probably a list of seven eight nine names but i defy any all black fan any pretend selector like myself to name the three that would start against france let alone the three that would start against your lot apart from adi sabia if he's fit and he's available obviously arty is one of those we've got a lot of guys that it feels like they're the same player and you do you get this a lot in football m dub as well where you know i watched my man united team play we've got a midfield and there's like five guys they can select from but they all play the same position and i think when you look at the all blacks loose forwards we don't have a lot of differentiation which you guys have you know you guys can pick a monster at number six you can pick a different kind of guy at eight you can pick guys off the bench that can come in and readjust those roles we've got arty severe in his role and then i'm not sure any of us really know how that combination works whether we go for height like what mex is saying and he wants four line-out options or four aerial options aerial combat options in that ford pack or whether we go more back to the future for the all blacks and be more aggressive more bitey more niggly more abrasive around the breakdown and go for guys that are quicker and faster there um bear with me on this then we go to halfback we've got cam roy guard and roy got and roy got he's miles above everyone else right marty i mean just he's a colossus so far he's so far ahead of everyone else and he's a guy that a lot of us are thinking if he's not added to the leadership group he's a potential captain in the future not because he has all the experience just because that's who he is he's just one of those guys i think everyone in the dressing room looks at and goes wow i'm playing with you and i know you can win us games uh no this is not this is not to suck up to you marty at all this is not to butter you up but i would pick roy god over du pont uh every day of the week look i think they're different players and again i'm interested in double why you got to think on that but i think they're different players but cam roy guard offers so much to the all blacks and part of the thing that mike blair was talking about none of these are trade secrets people is we're going to have to go back to playing the way that the way that all black rugby attacks the spring box which is at pace which is really moving that ball quickly which is looking for you know green grass and with scott robertson it just got so confused and muddled remember the word was clunky all the time we just couldn't seem to get anything going and i'm wondering whether that's how our loose forwards will be that they will be really attacking the breakdown like a pack and really fast and if you remember back to 2012 and 2013 when dave really was coaching the chiefs there's a lot of dissatisfaction amongst a lot of sides because of the way that they niggled around the breakdown they were they were abrasive man they got in your face they were pushing guys off the side they were really riding that line i asked this question to him in the closed door thing is that what you're going to bring back and he just nodded looked him and he said i call it brutality so you know translate that however you want after roy guard and hotham we've got a problem at nine no question about that we really do if we lost roy guard we're in big trouble uh aaron smith i know you're in japan and retired uh is there a possibility you know we go to number 10 and again you guys are you do you look at a 9-10 axis and those two players playing together or do you pick two separate guys who are the best guys so the richie mawanga thing is a really interesting thing i'll i'll get on to that later the midfield you're right we've got a 12 who we all think is a great 12 a world-class 12 and geordie barrett but the combination for 12 and 13 still isn't there and it's only been 11 years since manu and conrad smith had that combination locked down and we haven't had a regular fix since then i think i think our back three i think our back three in terms of the two wingers and the fullback i think we can pick three really good players will jordan is obviously locked in at fullback but the fascinating thing harry is what you brought up about the bench scott robertson just i think failed completely and how that bench was used the configuration of and the impact of those players and so again now we come back to uh do we the five three or six two split you know that's going to be argued about forever but do we have players that can fulfill one or two more roles and this is one thing that russie introduced which you know and players been able to if necessary come off that forward pack and fill a role in the center position or or or you know a guy that can actually genuinely play two or three positions and so when you look at all of that big picture yeah there are gaps and there are holes and this is the coach's biggest challenge before we get to south africa is to make sure that there's some solidity and consistency in those if you're not using brodie retellee can we borrow him because i I mean, the blocks have no locks left. Look, he mentioned him, and specifically because it's a question that keeps coming up. He says Brodie Retellick is the best player in Japan at the moment. He's the top try scorer. He said he's absolutely refreshed.

But look, Brodie Retellick retired in 2023. He retired. You know, he played 100 and something tests for the All Blacks. He played 100 games for the Chiefs. He has ruled himself out of international rugby this year.

and get this, this is why, because he doesn't want to spend 150 days in hotels. And Dave really made the joke twice that the furthest he travels these days is the train to Tokyo. He just doesn't like traffic. He doesn't like staying away from his family. A lot of us think, oh, you know, that's a real novelty, living like that.

But, you know, when you've got young kids and you've been doing it for 12 years, it's like the cricketers do. They spend six months on the road. It's really, you know, it's hard on every other aspect of their life. That's not ruling Brodie Retallick out for next year. but I kind of think really, look, I think we've got young good locks.

Brodie Ritalik was an absolute colossus for us but I think we kind of have maybe have moved on from that. Having said that, I'm in favour of Richie Mawanga being added to the squad so there's a contradiction straight away. I was watching your show recently, excellent, everyone should get on it and see the guests you have but I don't even know the names of these two guys but you were having a debate about Lester Whanganuku and I I was so struck with one of the guests getting it, like he got it, that it wasn't just about, well, why would you put a back line player in a flank? Why would he be even the 20th best flank in New Zealand was one guy. And the guy who got it was like, that's not the point.

The point is that 20 minutes to go, 25 minutes to go, 15 minutes to go. You never know what you're looking at on that particular night. And you need to be able to throw curve balls and strange things. You need to have X-factor players coming from all over the place. And why wouldn't you want to have that in your locker?

And I thought that was great. To be, just to make Rossi wonder instead of Rossi making you guys wonder. Great point. And the discussion was called the Roundtable. And it's three rabid dog fans and we're all going for it.

And Mark Hawkson is just, what I will argue about everything. JD or Jamie was sitting in for JD this week. He more a little bit more tempered on that I sitting there in the middle and it normally me in what I was position but I trying to to lasso both these guys and look at least there a really interesting one isn he because in 2023 if you remember he replaced several on the wing i think for the quarterfinal against ireland and he played really really well then he goes away to france we don't see him uh while he's in france for toulon we hear that he's playing a lot of games at seven or finishing games at seven and that adds to the conversation really wow i've never seen that before okay not in new zealand rugby comes back to the crusaders uh and we're a lot of us are thinking he's our answer at center we saw him and quintu pire last year play on the uk tour where they played at 12 and 13 together and a lot of us thought maybe that's the future there um but no he's started the wing for the crusaders and now he's in at seven i think you're right i don't know how many players can genuinely fit that below harry look and also when a guy's playing number seven in super rugby at the moment you're going to get some games where he's really going to dominate could he be that effective at international level or are we better off looking at guys like tabatabana and two pyre and if you watch them play they play their position of 12 but their work over the ball and creating turnovers and being first they're like they're almost like the first number seven at the breakdown a lot of the time do we look at that as a way of a point of difference so there's a couple of questions and combinations there but you are right you know it's it's time and dave reenny was big on this it's time that you know we started doing things that other people are raising their eyebrows and again and going hang on a second the all blacks are innovative again the all blacks are trying things again uh so yeah there's it's a chess match going on at the moment isn't it you know i mean we start putting our black pawn up there and let's see where russie comes with that and let's see where he moves his rook and let's see whether the horse goes over this side yeah i'm loving every second of it and the other thing is i mean cards are such a constant so setting aside whether something should or should not be cards setting aside the whole red 22 red doesn't matter the number of times in a game that a card will occur is increasingly so high that it's literally what you're planning around and so the presence of a lester fanganuku andre esterheisen is that you have adaptability quagha smith uh you know the the tweener the some the the player that that could fit in anywhere you want um this seems to be one of the problems when i looked back at all blacks is they would start really well but not finish really well because sure as there would be a card it just it's gonna be it happens or someone has an injury and so um it's interesting to me dave rennie has always been a guy who his his teams are always really prepared for war you know and i'm interested in the culture there he's like instead of making excuses like i thought razor did at the end are you are you seeing a man who's coming in you know built for war is this what we're going to look at in the rivalry yeah 100 he's that's exactly what it is he he's made no no no secret about that at all that as i said he brings out the word brutality uh he wants his players to be really physical one of the things he said to us is that he said you know he said you guys meaning us in the media us fans as well he said you know i'm he and this was his quote i'm not interested in flashy instagram plays i'm not interested in that you know a guy that does something on the field in a super rugby game before you know it it's on instagram and everyone's going put him in the all blacks because he didn't this he said i'm not interested in that he said i'm interested in does he do a tackle how fast does he back up where is he placed in that back line is he making another tackle or is he lying there on the ground he wants guys he calls him up and downs he wants guys that are totally physically committed before everything else and it's interesting you say that yeah we haven't closed games out very well look i think two years ago we had this real problem we couldn't score any points at the end of a game and and we came to south africa and we just i think the last 20 minutes we couldn't score something like six test matches in a row we couldn't score last year we had this problem between 40 minutes and 60 minutes we couldn't score um and i think that that bench thing is is absolutely huge and i'm i i don't think scott robertson got it right uh i'm not sure ian foster got it right but having said that i I think it's changed so much over the last couple of years. This is the big evolving thing of Test Rugby, isn't it? It's not about the 15.

It's 23 players. And those other eight players are coming onto the field. And you've got to figure out, it's almost like an NFL side now, where they fit, how, what is attack, what is defence. In terms of the cards, Harry, we spent a time a couple of years ago where we played like seven or eight Test matches in a row. And it was such a frustration.

You know, I was always banging on about it. We never played with 15 men. we're always playing with 14 men we're always playing with 13 men and the way that the game is now and especially with the head contact of things yeah you are going to have 14 men on the field at some stage it's you have to prepare for that um so i think obviously with your eight you've got to have three front rows that's just locked in right that just has to happen you've got to have cover for nine and ten because they're specialist positions outside of that you're probably playing with three players you look you line out forward have perhaps got to play loose forward as well. And I'm looking at maybe a Scott Barrett who might not be first choice selection, but that guy can play six as well as play lock. And I think he could be an invaluable player in that position that you're talking about.

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Every little bit helps. Yeah, so without any further ado, back to Martin. The other thing is that your leadership group replaces the idea of captaincy, you know, the skipper. Now it's this idea of a leadership group. Someone's leading the line out.

Someone's the defensive captain. Someone's the guy who talks to the ref captain. But it's all different. Talk to me about that. What's your sense of Rennie?

Does he keep the same? Is there continuity? Or do you believe Dave Rennie wants to have his own leadership group? Again, this came up. And we asked questions about this because we still don't have an all-black captain at the moment.

And he refused to answer that question. But he talked about the leadership group. And he said a couple of weeks ago, the leaders got together. I had Gilbert Anoka on the podcast this week. and Gilbert was kind of like the head doctor guru and the motivation specialist for 20 years with the All Blacks.

He came in in 2004, created that no dickheads policy and went all the way through to Ian Foster's last game in 2023. Scott Robertson didn't want him. He's now back and he's part of that leadership team. But in terms of the leadership group, Dave Brady said that expect some changes. There will be some senior players who miss out who still are All Blacks.

There'll be some senior players who miss out who won't be All Blacks. There might be a couple of names in there that people think, because they never really tell us who these guys are. They don't actually give us a list of the leadership group. We assume a lot. But he said expect a couple of players in there that maybe a lot of people on the surface wouldn't consider.

That's why I'm thinking Roy Gard, because he's just such an integral player and a lot of decisions on the field. One of the things that we want to get back to, for me in All Black rugby, is attacking the blind side for a start. The All Blacks, MWO, you know, you've watched a lot of rugby over the years. We always were a real blindside team. And that initial decision-making, especially with that new rule, with the penalty where you can tap and go within a metre or whatever or two metres of where the ref calls it and you don't have to wait and the defence that is directly in front of you, well, if they touch you, that's another penalty and perhaps a card.

Now, Roy Gard is expert at exploiting that space and we've seen him really go for that in Super Rugby. So I think that playing at pace and using that side of it has got to be really important for us. And so leadership-wise, that guy's got his hands on the ball so much. How can you not include him as a key decision-maker? Because on the field, at the time, in the heat, he's going to have to call those things, isn't he?

And he's not going to have to wait and go, Adi or whoever it is, Scott Barrett, can I do this? He's just going to go, Gap, go, chase me. It's also interesting because you're working on super rugby form. Cam Roigard is leading the far and away, the dominant team this year. I mean, Chiefs are right behind them, but still it's been hurricanes as far as points differential and the shape of the game.

They are the boss. How do you read that? Because it seems like Super Rugby isn't necessarily giving whoever the all-black coach is a great read on who would play good test rugby. It's great derbies, but the Aussie competition, whether it's the Reds or Brumbies, it's not really shaping as tough competition as it should it be. yeah and it's a continuous debate with us and about whether it's the most adequate preparation Dave really seems very confident that it is it's all we've got we can't invent something and say okay right outside of that how do we prepare our players uh a lot of these guys you've got to remember uh established all blacks anyway some of the the players that are playing the best in super rugby at the moment are some of our best all blacks which is kind of what you'd expect and what you want especially with a new coach the motivation of impressing that guy and these guys know how to prepare themselves for test rugby you know a guy that's played 50 or 60 tests you know i i think he could play club rugby and get himself up mentally ready if not physically ready he might have to go and do some you know two weeks of intensive training or whatever but he kind of knows what it takes to run out onto that field uh we played two games against you guys last year and we all know the results of those games and so these guys know to go and beat south africa what it took one time and got absolutely shellacked the second time and what they need to do to prevent that from happening and get back up to a level so i'm kind of getting less and less worried about that because the coach is confident that what he's saying he can get this group of players to where he wants to get them and the example is you know for everybody who criticizes super rugby russie is selecting guys out of the japanese league who are stepping up for the spring box and playing like world beaters now super rugby is better than the japanese league okay Let's just establish that fact right away.

So if that's the case, and Russi can do that, he's not worried about that. Because I bet his message to those guys is, you know what it takes. You're absolutely mentally, emotionally ready for what this jump is. And if you're not, well, I'm going to find out real quick and you're not going to be in that team. I wanted to ask you, Russi is like this chess master, the grand master.

We all think how clever he is and things he comes up with. Dave Rennie is a similar coach. I mean, he beat us with the Aussies, with moustache gait and everything else. I mean, are we seeing some of that kind of, does he have Russi's number? I'm worried about that, to be perfectly honest with you.

Again, it's something that we brought up, and it's fascinating, isn't it? When have we seen in the era of Test Rugby where the coaches, I suppose Eddie Jones brought this as much as anyone else, but the coaches are so important in their thought patterns and their personalities, and it's almost like they're the lead singer in the band and everyone's looking at them to see you know how they dance on stage almost isn't it uh i think that the the battle between these two is going to be absolutely fascinating and you know russie is the grand master at the moment but david is a deep thinker about the game and the people that he's got around him i think that shows for a start i also like the fact that he hasn't been in new zealand coaching remember for best part of 10 years now and so he's not kind of flooded and overwhelmed by the the what happens in new zealand rugby we're so introspective there's only so many of us here the whole you know country's like this on it and and he's gone through ups and downs look he coached an australian side that when you look at those players on paper i mean if i always we always used to think if he was coaching the the all-black names at that time how what could he have got out of that team you know he got a hell of a lot out of those players it's like joe schmidt you know maybe the results aren't the best but that doesn't mean he's not a great coach and he's actually you know effect effective with those players dave really i think it was a 3-1 record against the spring box i don't know him what you can read into that joe schmidt beats the spring box last year and then you look at his players and go wow did that really happen so i think you're right i think uh you know this south african tour is completely separate from everything else that goes on this year the july test and the november test take those out of it this is its own beast And I think he will have a plan, and this is what he's looking at, because he can cement a legacy in New Zealand rugby forever by going and winning that Test Series. That's the prize. You know, for a lot of us, for me, winning in South Africa in 1996 is bigger than winning the World Cup. I know that a lot of people will probably think, no, you're just saying that.

No, no, no, no, no. So 1996, because of the age and stage I am and the history and everything, winning in South Africa, if Dave really does this, what an impetus. And look, he's on a carpet ride for the next 10 years if that's the case. So the incentives there as well as just strategically, if he manages to pull this off and get one over you guys, wow, what does that say leading into Australia and everything else? So, yeah, I think it's absolutely fascinating, the tactical duel going on with these guys.

I just wanted to ask you you mentioned something about 10 days before the test against France and Rossi has got his first lineman camp coming up and lots of names in there and names we haven't seen before young guys and everything what exactly is the plan with the All Blacks? Is he going to have enough time to get these guys together? He's wanted to do all these plans and get Gramey and everything else but he still needs to get the message across to the players you just talked about it are they going to do that? What's the plan there? It's not a big window is it?

I think if you're writing down how to prepare a team for a test match 10 days uh you know it's been brought up the narrative is that look it's you don't get six weeks with your team or 12 weeks whatever it is like super rugby yeah i think it's a handicap for us no question and if it was 10 days before the first south african test our players kidding it'd be a real worry but i can't i don't i don't want to undermine these july tests i don't know what you guys feel about it but it it feels like this is going to be the test pattern warm up he's going to try a few things out during this uh because there's no room and no time to try it out when we get to south africa there's none at all and i know that there are urc games and things but 44 players genuinely how many of those players play on a wednesday and are playing on a saturday man i don't think there's going to be that many if any uh maybe a guy gets 10 or 15 minutes to stretch his legs or whatever so i don't think 10 days is nearly enough time but that's just what he's got to deal with isn't it plus also the fact he's over in japan i mean again it's not ideal is it you'd kind of want him to be here on the ground and i know that the other guys are going and being his eyes and ears and he's doing zoom calls and things like that but i yeah that is that is something that is a concern no question it's interesting because the other teams will all be focused right up front on these this test these test series but the all blacks and springbox and their fandoms are looking beyond it you know let's be honest we're lying if we say anything other than that we cannot wait for that to to arrive i know we're going to be hopefully doing some events together in South Africa and just having fun with the fans and reliving something that we all grew up with and bequeathing it to a new generation teaching them what a tour a real tour really looks like I kind of started thinking I'm with MVA here, I'm shaking a bit because I'm worried about Dave Rennie because I think he's a storyteller. I think he's a culture builder. I think Joe Schmidt's more of the guy if you had to get ready for one game, maybe an unlikely game and his starter plays and his tactics spot on. but to build something I worry about Dave Rennie because he's he's unperturbed I can see him not worrying about what Rusty's saying whereas I always felt like Razor there was an avenue into his head and he got nervous I could see it he was biting pens and clutching his brow I just think Dave Rennie's just a no-nonsense uh I'll meet you out back and we'll fight uh kind of guy who his players love right I mean but isn't that your impression of him 100% and you know as i said this is a guy who grew up in upper hut now you know wellington's our capital city up at his 30k way up was nappy valley for all the factories out there the yeah this is my parents arrived you know with young kids and and then it was built up on that and so a lot of state housing a lot of hard-working you know real working class people uh not a it's certainly not a rich area and in any stretch to the imagination um and that's how he grew up and his first coaching gig was upper hut okay and so this is he's come from real grassroots day pretty this and and he's never had a carpet ride uh and then of course he goes to australia that doesn't work out then he goes to glasgow so he never thought that this job would come along that's what he said he just the idea of him being all black coach he'd way you know given up on yet it's something he's prepared for his whole life and you know you've picked a street fighter there is what you've got but you've also got a guy that one of the great things when he went to the chiefs and our good friend tony johnson has written a book on this which is coming out he said that the thing he did more than anything else is the chief's franchise started off with they had north harbour in there and you know as part of waikato and bay of plenty and then they had northland i mean this is just ridiculous these should be in the blues and you know geographical terms so the first thing he had to do was actually join everyone together and the chief's mother thing comes from him and he went right back to roots uh to you know where the people grew up where they came from and had to get that sense of family and sense of belonging and sense of everyone having ownership now i draw a parallel with what russie's got going on at the moment with the squad which is um you know the team is everything absolutely everything and you have to buy into that that's what dave rennie is all about that mentality um and if you don't you you just won't be there it's as simple as that and that's one thing and he talks about legacy now last year and i think i mentioned this to you guys and it still disturbs me to this day because these things disturb me You know, I sat there and was interviewing All Blacks before they went on the Grand Slam tour. There were three of them.

I won't name their names, but these are really high profile guys. And none of them knew what a Grand Slam tour was. And I'm sitting there going, well, hang on a second. Why wouldn't you even have the curiosity to find out? You know, in 1978, when we first did that, that was momentous.

Jack Gleeson, coach, Graham Murray, captain. This was something that changed the All Blacks. And you guys, what, don't you care about this? You know, legacy and going to South Africa. and I've talked to Gilbert about this and I talked to, we asked Dave Rennie about this.

He's really big on this. I don't think Scott Robertson's regime was at all, but I don't, I just don't understand how you can be an all black, how you can think about going to South Africa without knowing what it means. You know, Sean Fitzpatrick was on the show with us and he talks about Don Clark crying in that tunnel after Loftus and saying to him, I can die a happy man now. You know, got to get stirred up when I start talking about this because this is what it's about, isn't it? Coming to your guys' place, you know, and winning over there and becoming part of that level of being an All Black.

You know what Richie McCaw talks about? Not being this level, being a great All Black, and then being an immortal All Black by being incomparable because you've gone and done something and won something that no one else has. And if you don't understand what that means and what it means to the country and what it should mean to you as a player, this is really important for Dave Rennie. I don't know, guys, whether these are the last magic elements, the fairy dust that gets sprinkled on the top that says, I feel 10 foot tall and I'm ugly when I get out there. But to me, this is what it is, isn't it?

This is the kind of stuff that motivates you to get back off the floor that last time and hit the guy again, but hit him harder than you did the last time, even though you buggered it on the ground because of what it is. Right? You know, I'm getting all psyched up now for the rivalry. Thank you. But I'm also thinking now of Dave Rennie in particular and thinking, what a great time he finds himself in the all-black setup you're right it's historic this would be the first one of these he also didn't complain and whine when he got treated i think horribly by rugby australia and what would he have done there i mean just imagine what stories he could have told and now that we know you know how good italy was and that wasn't really as terrible a loss maybe as it should have been pinned with an eddie jones saga so it's almost like this quiet spoken upper heart guy he gets his moment now and so even though i hope we beat the pants off you and humiliate you it's something very exciting about watching a guy go into the arena like that like now i cannot wait wait to see david reny and rossi meet at off at offway like they always do and you know exchange pleasantries i think that handshake is going to be one of those ones where there's going to be the full arm extension and then bring back a little bit with a little bit of a raised elbow to get a little bit of dominance look again it comes back to the players and what they feel about him and if you talk to those wallaby players or read what they said they were gutted when he got sacked from that wallaby job they really they bought into him the chiefs players bought into him uh he's coaching at the moment with brodie and he's coaching with richard mawanga um these guys buy into him and they buy into his philosophy and he's one of those kind of guys he does it without needing to be scott robertson different kind of guy scott robinson's a charismatic guy you know but he's a different kind of charisma dave rinney he's just one of those guys you kind of walk into the room and okay this is kind of weird but you want to go and stand next to him do you know what i mean that kind of guy yeah likable and and humble i mean uh i think one of the things as well is that that spirit of knowing where you are being honest about it i would imagine he's not going to sugarcoat anything probably he's going to say playing for me is going to be hell because carry clean is hard that means you have to get to so many rocks on time it's it's actually a brutal way to play we've talked about i guess maybe the word brutality keeps coming back up uh but dave rennie i mean that's that's just in today's world when most teams are going to kick chase kick space chips um quick strike dave rennie's old school he's gonna try and bash you and bash you until he scores yeah and and he made no no secret about that as well and again just going back remind me to talk about the mwanga thing before we finish a course but going back to that um he's not interested in flashy plays and he was specific about the loose forwards about this and he said he measures it completely differently and so he said that there's a target line and i think he had 85 or something and you have to something like 85 you have to get off the ground and you have to be in position and you have to be affecting something else and he said and he was quite open about this he said a couple of years ago when he got arty saveri he said arty was just way below the line on this and this is a guy that had been world player of the year and everything else and we all just think you know how to save is a god and yet he said no no he said i kind of he said he had to retrain because i wanted more out of him and he said that so when i look at a player and if they haven't got over that 85 line during a game he said well then they come back the very next day and i put them through 85 and he had this routine where you hit a tackle bag go down and up and then you run over there and you do it again and that was just one and you have have to do 85 of these right and so that's what he said and so that's really big for him but that's physical commitment and it's also I believe emotional commitment the selfless commitment where you know everything is bigger than you and your heart has to burst before you come off that field and you have to you know physically fall over when you come off that field and if you haven't done that well then you haven't done enough as far as he's concerned this is the kind of motivation, I think, that he will instill in these players.

There ain't no rock stars in that team anymore. There is no one that is bigger than anyone else. I think there's going to be a humility to the All Blacks, less of a swagger. I get the feeling it's almost like we've got everything to prove now. And I, as an All Black fan, I love the All Blacks like this.

This was what it felt like in the quarterfinal against Ireland. They'd won 18 in a row. We'd been very underwhelming for two years. They'd come down here and peeped us. I sat in that stand, Harry, you know, and didn't believe we're going to win that game.

And that's an unusual feeling for an All Black fan. And then we raised our game because, and again, guys, it comes down to the players. You know, we talk a lot about Dave Brinney, but ultimately you can have whoever the coaches are. It comes down to who's on the field and how much they want it and how effective those guys can be. And that All Black group against Ireland played like they hadn't for two years.

So what went on within that group of players? Take everything else outside of it. They're the ones that are going to go on and play the game and win the game. but you can instill whatever it is into them. But if they don't have that between each other as a togetherness and things, which is what the Springboks have got at the moment, we need to find that again.

I believe that this guy is the guy that can do that. I'm not saying Jamie Joseph couldn't have done that, but you really get the feeling with Dave Rennie. It could blow up in our face, of course, but he's instilling just a little, just a quiet resolve, if not confidence at the moment, just to resolve that, let's go back to doing what we're really good at doing, which is the most basic fundamental aspects of a collision sport, which is owning you as an opponent. Are you ready for this? Do you want some of this?

No, let me ask you this. You're talking about the basic fundamentals. And one of the basic fundamentals for any rugby match is you pick your best players. Richie Mwonga is not coming to South Africa. What on earth, man?

Come on. What's the story there? Look, and I'm so with you. And I don't know an All Black fan that isn't with you. And this was really interesting, actually, because we had Steve Lancaster, the CEO, in the room, and Dave, we need a coach there.

And I put these questions to them. I said, OK, this is what it comes down to as a fan. I said to Steve Lancaster, you're the CEO, you're going to sell me this as a fan. I said, the most pragmatic approach that New Zealand rugby has got is we want to win this World Cup. And he said, yes, without a question.

I said, OK, great. Let's tick that box. The next box is, will you do everything possible to ensure that the resources are there, that everything is available to win that World Cup? Yes. This is so important for New Zealand rugby financially as much as reputation, everything else.

Yes. So as far as you're concerned, whatever it is that, whatever it takes, that's the pragmatism, that's the approach. Yes. OK, great. Over here, you've now got one of the great players.

Is he available? Is he fit? Does he want to play? Tick, tick, tick. Does the coach want him?

Tick. Well, how can you not reconcile those two things and pick this player? And so the CEO is sitting there and he says, oh, well, he gives the speech. He's a nice guy, Steve. but he gives a speech through the system lens that we're looking at it but no one's buying the system lens mate what we're looking at is does this guy want to play does dave really want him and then dave really sitting there straight afterwards and says uh he says look that's new zealand rugby's position i respect the position um i i was i had him selected to start against the stormers in the first urc game those were his words so you've got a ceo that's saying uh because of the rules this guy can't play you've got a coach that hasn't even started coaching yet that's already selected him for the first game on that tour so i called it a conflict i've been criticized for calling that a conflict i don't see how it is anything other than a conflict of two views and look and and i gotta stress this as well richie malanga is not this magic wand we're not we don't have this stick in our hand going richie malanga is going to sprinkle this dust and the all blacks are going to win but what it is is it's simply that we need every single person available and when you look at our first five situation we didn't talk about this has before um you know we've got bowden barrett wonderful player who's at the end of his career damien mckenzie wonderful player who hasn't yet stepped up to being the consistent first five that we want at test match level under load ruben love wonderful talent hasn't had that experience yet do you play him in south africa richie mawonga retired at the end of 2023 and he wasn't like a dan carter first five he had his ups and downs as well let's be honest about it but he's really experienced and he's a really good first five why wouldn't you have him there as an option it just doesn't make sense to any of us you're exactly right also we always say fine margins you know high performance elite sport we go oh it was fine it was fine margins then we supply a fine margin moonga is that margin right he's what i don't know he's worth three points two points that's what it comes down to so it does my head and we'll go well that's just one guy like that's what it comes down to is decision maker 10 final five minutes if i see moonga on there i'm worried if i see ruben love great player but he's not ready david mckenzie seen that movie before know how it ends um yeah i think it's the most trick and also it's uh for the for any fan for any true fan so african fans want to see richie monga we want to see the big we want to see the big guys we want to see we want to we want to have a win where there's no excuses by you guys that's what it is oh lord i hope there's no excuses i hope there's no excuses yeah look another one shannon frizzell right and he's an interesting case as well um shannon frizzell was this guy that since jerome kano retired in 2015 i think we've tried something like 19 players at number six right and just think about that for a second our midfield martin conrad as i said before 15 sorry 11 years we still haven't replaced those two guys with a consistent pairing that number six position in the all-backs has always been such a big position again it's blindside harry okay you know you you want a guy that shuts that blind side down you want it so that when the halfbacks looking around the side and goes oh it's jerome kano i'm not going down that road i'm taking the off ramp i'm going this way and so shannon frizzell was a guy that we all wanted to be that guy and he kind of muddled around a bit then at mount smart stadium against you guys world cup year 2023 he was a monster in that first half of that game then he became shannon frizzell he goes to the world cup he plays like that then we don't see him again he stayed in japan and so again another guy come back committed to New Zealand rugby, to me, once you've signed that bit of paper that says, here I am, I'm playing for New Zealand rugby, well, use him, New Zealand rugby.

Use the guy. Look, I get the talk around it as well. We can't do what you guys do, and we can't let all our players go overseas and pick from overseas, because super rugby would die if that's the case. We need our stars here so that kids can see them, and then, you know, you're looking at the telly. They're advertising Damian McKenzie on the billboards, but if you're going on to the game and he's not playing, well, you kind of feel ripped off.

So we can't let everyone go. But somewhere in the middle of what you're doing and the staunchness of our rules, which seem ridiculous, is the answer for the All Blacks, whether it's the ghetto law or whatever it is. But again, I go back to, you know, what people like Steve Hansen say, what Ted Henry says, what Dave Rennie says. These guys know themselves whether they're ready and capable of playing at that level. They know.

And if they are, and they are available, and they are keen, Again with Shannon Frizzell, we've got a big list of loose forwards. Is he better than Wallace Sattiti at the moment? Good argument. Don't know. But would you want him in South Africa to smash and bash some URC sides to start with and have a look Hell yes Hell yes We want him here We remember that 2023 World Cup final Don you forget There some legal there for sure Sorry to interrupt you.

And also the depth. I mean, there's no way under God's green earth that three tests in, you're going to have the same side as you started with. There's going to be somebody we haven't talked about. There's going to be the emergence of a young star for the box or a young star for the All Blacks. So, yeah, quite frankly, the more we talk about this, the more excited I'm getting about the actual thing itself.

And no matter what the wrinkles are, what we wish was true, it's something about it. I want to ask you about that is what most are you looking forward to about being in South Africa? What experiences are you looking forward to having? what places have you maybe dreamt of or thought about and now you're going to be there doing it uh this this more than anything else uh look this this is the ultimate in terms of our national game that you know i look you can talk about world cuts you can talk about grand slam tours you can talk about any other rivalry you can talk about the vlade is like this is it this is what i grew up on listening on the radio getting up at three in the morning watching these games the fact we never played you for so long the politics around it all of that uh and we're at the stage right now uh jamie wall wrote a book called the hundred years war about this right and this is this is everything but more than anything first and foremost i want to do this i want to sit there in a pub like you said harry no stage but i want to be meeting every single person in that pub i want to be going around shaking hands and i want to be butting chests and i want to be yelling at people and i want to be getting getting all of that going on um you know i want to meet fans i just want to meet people who love rugby so much like we love rugby and these two nations this is how we come together uh so that's the first and foremost but second but it's a real shame to me that some of the grounds i won't get to see uh i grew up looking at that cape town stadium that the original one where the stands were like millard standard athletic park they just kind of vertically rose out of the ground kings park uh durban i looked at that ground and went wow look at that i'd love to go there um i'd love to go to loftus you know just that's a spiritual place for us all back fans now because that's where we won the series was at loftus um so i want to go to alice park i mean you know that's i want to go to these grounds where all the history's taken place so because i'm a real nerd i'm a museum hunter when it comes to that kind of stuff so the fans that bit of it and then the luckiness and the privilege we get of being able to go to press conferences and as i said and we're right there. Harry, we were standing there under the stands at Eden Park when Adi Savir and his 100th game was being interviewed.

I remember we looked at each other with that look of wow, man. What the fuck are we doing here, Marty? I was like, we don't deserve this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, that to me, when you add those three elements into it already, I mean, I'm so excited about it.

You know, I'm 62 years old. I mean, this is like, you know, unleash me in the toy shop because this is the biggest toy shop there is as far as I'm concern and I hope that uh when we get over there that people really embrace this I know that there's such a great rapport between the fans and and I think that every New Zealander that's going over there it's probably a trip of a lifetime it's not something that the rest of us will get to do ever again probably you know that often and so just to dive into rugby for eight weeks and see the country through a rugby lens and meet the people through a rugby lens and all of that kind of thing you know there's tourist stuff that I want to go do obviously you know because you can't go there and not think about that kind of thing. And I'd be remiss not to mention that, you know, but the safari, the robin island, the sharks, all of those kind of things. But ultimately, first and foremost, I just want to shake hands with people and I want to be standing there, you know, chewing a Doberman leg at a bribe and it's my turn to scow my pine. I want to just do some really goofy stuff like that.

Hey, we were there for you. You're going to be pleasantly surprised about how people want to argue with you in the most pleasant but fierce way. That's the that's the way to describe it. I mean, they'll get into you, but they won't want to stop. And then by an hour in, you're thinking, this is my best friend.

So I think you're going to be really, you're going to really enjoy it. Yeah. Can I tell you a story? So the 2004 Athens Olympics, okay, and you'll be wondering why I'm telling this as a rugby story. So we're in Greece and there was an all-black test against South Africa and it was like about midday, I think, because of the time zone or something like that.

It might've been one in the afternoon. And me and a mate, and I'm actually in a leisure suit because it's Greece, it's hot, I'm in the summer, I'm going to the Olympics, I'm in a leisure suit. So we walk into this bar and it's pretty much just full of South African fans, there's like one other all-black fan in there and so I'm looking around and my friend who's with me said oh god this is a bit, this is a bit, you know, and I said no no no you watch this. So I looked at the three biggest guys in the bar and I went over to the barman and I said can I have whatever they're drinking, three of those and a pint for me and a pint for my mate and so I grabbed the three drinks that these guys were having, I walked straight up to the three biggest South Africans I could find I mean right oh we're about here to kick your ass but he and handed them all a drink and and I thought two things are gonna happen here I'm out physically out the door or these guys are going to be looking at me going who's a skinny little dude in a leisure suit barking at us and that's what happened and they were just they just roared with laughter and they just said what and I was we were with them for the rest of the day and that night and hung with them for the whole time and just and we razzed each other the whole time uh you guys won that game and so you know there are moments during the game that we were betting on everything and i was giving it to them every time we scored points and i copped a big big ferocious one at the end of course when we lost um same as when we were in last year um and we saw the wellington test in a bar in rome and there was me my partner my son a couple of other all-back fans surrounded by springbok fans and we were gone the whole time and in the end we get our asses kicked with 43 points but I'd you know how can you not enjoy that and the people that you meet because as I said that's what this is about you know this is about two rugby nations and there are very few countries in the world that compete like this at sport that it means that much like you think the Americans they don't really do this you know they kind of compete with Iran at the moment right but they don't really kind of compete on a sporting level do they so yeah i i i i'm embraced for it and sean fispatrick keeps warning me he says you know mate he said it's a different thing he said that you know everyone he says that they run all stop you everyone wants to talk everyone wants to argue and all of that uh yeah i just think it's heaven for six or seven weeks man what i love about it speaking of rivalries and such and most like in boxing they have they have to promote it and it's fabricated and they're gonna have this feud and then someone looked the wrong way at the guy's wife and he you know insulted his car whatever and it's contrived this doesn't need anything it's just all blacks spring box in south africa done what else do you need yeah yeah and look and we and we can talk it to death and we will talk it to death beforehand but as i said ultimately it comes down to those guys who are big enough and man enough and capable of walking onto a field with that shirt on their backs and playing against 15 from the other side who is desperately committed and you know how to be just imagine what it must be like in that headspace in that dressing room and that cauldron to walk out and do that uh yeah how much fun would that be and then afterwards if you've won that game wow just it's something that you know you as a fan you dream of isn't it and and so you know these guys russie and dave reine will prepare their sides perfectly strength-wise you know we'll concede at the moment we then don't even bother with this we're the underdogs we're playing that big underdog card and you're going to get it it's going to be barking at you from the moment we arrive that underdog card okay um because you guys wow you beat us by 43 last year you've won five out of six back-to-back world champs you've got 50 players in every position we can't compete there's only five million of us uh but i'll tell you what sometimes it's the staffordshire bull terrier that beats that big dog doesn't it right we have no we have no locks we're gonna play without locks with the underdogs because of that one thing that's it you have got this guy called peter stiffed toy who to me is three players you know um you've got sasha who is at the moment reinventing the way that the first five position plays you are leading the world in terms of how you rotate those players off the bench and how you infuse those into a game you have developed three or four different styles of playing and we saw that manifested in the second half against france which was extraordinary that 40 minutes of rugby that south africa put out that day and the trajectory you were on at the end of the year and then you've got a a coach who everyone is living and dying on every breath and every word that he says and the inspiration that he provides Then you've got that Khaleesi factor that I kept looking at these pictures of when you win the World Cup and what it does to you as a nation and how it brings you all together. So you're adding all of these factors in.

This is an enormous mountain that we've got to climb. And to do it at your place, it couldn't be any more special. I'd rather be playing at your place than our place. Because I think that this is what the All Blacks need. We're going to find out at the end of this everything we need to know about every single one of those players, every single one of those coaches going into a World Cup.

you guys are about to give us the best preparation ever for a world cup because we're going to know and we can just strike them off now right now right now you can't go to a world cup but so i don't you know whatever however this turns out everyone's still going to look at australia in 2027 and so i think that we've got to look at it in these terms and think of what we can achieve over there of course we want to win and also the other thing can i ask you guys this you know 2-1, if we were up 2-1 over there, I don't care what happens in Baltimore. We've won that series. I don't care. But if you're down 2-1, you're going to want to win in Baltimore to square it up. It's so weird, isn't it?

Yeah, it's very weird. Listen, man, I'm with you on the idea that the box are going to have to win the favorite tag here, which is uncomfortable. We don't want it. We're going to argue. But in reality, that's true.

I'm fascinated by your point of this is the best thing for the All Blacks to be far away from home and prove it. I think that's exactly 100% right. I mean, what a barometer Dave Rennie will have in September. I mean, he will just know exactly what's what. Plus, also, it's that travelling mentality you get where you kind of feel the world's against you and you've just got yourselves and your mates around you and that's what you've got.

It's like being an away fan going to a football game in England. It's just, man, look at this. All we can do is get there on the train, get to the ground and get back home again in one piece. But the exhilaration you feel and all of that kind of thing. And I think that the All Blacks, when we're travelling, I think this is going to be really good for a lot of these players.

And as long as they can keep away from the distractions, because there's going to be a lot. And if I'm South Africa, I'm kind of tempting those All Blacks into everything. I want them here. I want them doing promotional business. Dave Reddy's going to have to really put the circle of the wagons on that and almost have, I think, another kind of team or another group of people that do a lot of the promotional stuff.

You know, his job is to get the players ready, not to be shaking hands and making plans. His job is to get the players ready for those games. So how he manages all of that is a new thing for him as well. But that's why I think he's brought guys like Gilbert Inoka back, because those guys know. They know what it takes to focus completely on what the job is, as opposed to, you know, everything else that goes along with this.

And ultimately, at the end of it, you know, you walk out with that result. As I said at the start, you're immortal, man. And, you know, we're dreaming of this at the moment, that just what say we managed to go over there and do it. What does that do for the whole of world rugby? How does that flip the script on absolutely everything?

What an incentive and what a prize. And if you can't be filled with that thinking, that's what I want, it's up there. I'm going to reach for that thing. If I don't get it, I might get really close, which might be good enough for the World Cup next year. But wow, let's have a crack at that.

What I'm going to do the night before the first test, though, is bring some bad bunny chow over to the team. and infect him with some Susie poison. Not for the first time. Not for the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Watch out. And also, I'm taking you onto the pitch with me because, you know, I've got a great strategy to get on there. Envia knows it. And we'll be just, you know, right there at the kickoff. We'll be standing there catching the ball.

I can't wait. You know, it's just, it's a dream come true. It really is. And to think that we get to do this. And, you know, the humbling thing about it is, as I said right at the beginning, you know, when you're sitting there next to the All Black coach and you're going, wow, this is just me.

And I'm 62 years old and I feel like a kid sitting there and I'm in awe and wonder. And then I remember I've got a job to do and I've got an audience and I've got to get my head right and make sure I ask the right questions and all of these. But you can't help but feel that. And if you don't feel that, you're not alive, man. If you don't feel that when you walk into somewhere and there's the All Black coach and he says, hi, Martin, and you shake his hand, he goes, what is he calling me, Martin?

Well, you know, this is New Zealand, I know. but if you don't feel something from that and get a kick out of that well you guys i say you shouldn't be there you know shouldn't be amen brother now we love that i tell you what we love that yeah okay i tell you stories when we meet so that's story for another for another day i think we have to wrap this up it's quite late over here and i think you've had some bad news while we were talking i watched it and i was like oh this is not going well storm is lost martin storm is losing we got the losing bonus points i don't like bonus points but we got the losing bonus points so i'm like okay fine you get it off well man well done i was watching your face but what does this mean so what does this mean for the urc do you get a home semi or a home fun how does this work we don't know what happens until lenster plays but it's now we're in danger of having to play semifinals away in dub in dublin this is just the first hammer blood many this year boys get used to the feeling it's only going to get worse watch my bulls were coming over if it wasn't for that damn last bonus point kick we could have we could have ended up ahead of the of the of the stormers yeah yeah but anyway sorry martin i got we got like thanks marty look it's good that was that was fantastic yeah if it's only for this if it's only for that if it's only for this if it's only for that the whole sporting fandom is being it's just this is what i live this is how i live hey it's the stuff of sports radio isn't it just uh but we just missed that one kick we're fine yeah just yeah yeah yeah great seeing you both hey let's do this again cheers man this is the lecker rugby pod only on megaphone rugby Thank you. Thank you.

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