Kennedy Tsimba and Tonderai Chavhanga on Zimbabwe's Rugby World Cup Return | Loose Pass

And it is known for, with the picture that has obviously done its rounds, that Zimbabwe is the only country that the All Blacks haven't been able to beat in a series. So, yeah, so we're holding on to that until they come play us again. I don't know when that will be, but they're probably worried about that record to be kept alive. Yeah, well, I think in the olden days, there's lots. So Bobby Skinstad would be one of them.

Gary Teichman, also of Zimbabwean descent. So, yeah, those are just two names that obviously have gone on and done well. And there's deeper connections. We had Ian McIntosh, who was a Springbok coach, also a very Zimbabwean from Buluwayo. So, yes, a lot of players that could have played for Zimbabwe but didn't.

And it's up to every Zimbabwean to help make sure that it's successful. And it's easy that it can be derailed. We've seen it happening in Namibia, have dominated 22 years without anybody else going and they're not going to the World Cup. So, yeah, I think it's an important cross-junction for Zimbabwe and it's important that, you know, we try to get it right. This is the Loose Pass Rugby Podcast, only on Megaphone Rugby.

Welcome back to the Loose Pass Rugby Podcast. Double-headed this week, I suppose, and this one is a special one. We're talking to the Zimbabwe guys, let's call them that, because, you know, we're getting close to that first SAA game versus Zimbabwe. And who better to talk about that than our special guest, Kennedy Tsimba and Tondra Shavanga. I mean, there's a name you haven't heard in a while, but you still remember him.

So welcome, guys. It's nice to see you. Thanks so much. It's great to be here. Yeah, thank you, Envia.

Good to be here in green and wearing, you know, the sables proudly. I must say, I was surrounded. I still wear my traditional blue for the blue bulls, as you know. but uh kennedy i noticed the first thing i noticed was you were you weren't wearing your bulls jersey so obviously this is not a bulls conversation i'm going to leave you guys in the capable hands of my colleague you griffin and he's going to lead it from there and uh i'll raise my hand occasionally if i have something to say well thank you for joining us i appreciate it over to you you yeah absolute pleasure this uh afternoon guys to be talking more zimbabwe sables one of my favorite teams in such a vibrant online community as well i know from personal experience we've done videos about zimbabwe before and they've been very popular a very passionate rugby crowd there and i've got my sables retro jersey which i think is made by old school which i did not receive for free despite being promised that i would so anyway so we'll get on and talk about zimbabwe here today so kind of the running order for people who are tuning in there's going to be no bulls chat despite avan kennedy on today it's going to be all 100 zimbabwe we're going to talk about the history of zimbabwean rugby then we're going to look at the kind of diaspora of zimbabwean rugby players around the world and just kind of showcasing what kind of talent comes from this incredible country and then we'll be looking ahead to the future of the saa game that's coming up and beyond so i guess kennedy begin with you welcome back to the show it's talk us through your kind of history with the sables which is a very illustrious one yeah so yeah thank you for this podcast because i just think that um there's so many stories that haven't been told uh about zimbabwean rugby and it's it's good to have a platform we've been crying and yearning and i think tundra will get to it he's uh used to do some animations and i'm sure hopefully he'll explain a bit about that but we we we've always tried to look at ways to be able to tell zimbabwean stories and because they they they they they're so rich and i think just in terms of rugby there's a dna that was started called chum chum and um this was where my older brother richard he was sort of the the first player that was um selected uh from a club and it was the first black club in zimbabwe and um they did so well that he was sort of the representative from that team and and that's sort of where my rugby i didn't want to play rugby actually i was into my arts and music and stuff like that and the school I was at they forced me to play because they wanted my brother to come and coach at the school and here I sit almost 30 40 years later having the game uh uh you know giving me such wonderful moments but um the the the great thing was that he sort of represented a new style of rugby that was being played and that shominica style has has almost been imprinted and And it's a DNA that's obviously carried on through right till today. So we go and watch our under 13s and our under 16s and under 18s in the Cravenwitz that come and play here in South Africa.

And you can see that style being played. And when I watch that, it almost brings back some memories because my first impression of Richard wasn't, I never went to watch him playing live. I first watched him playing at the World Cup game in New Zealand in 1987. I watched him on TV. and my mom had to actually call me in to come because I was playing outside.

I didn't know what I was doing out there, but they called me in and just watching him on TV sort of inspired me. And I think it inspired a whole generation that, you know, the sport obviously had been heavily, you know, dominated in the white communities, but I think there was a DNA of black players that was starting to come through and he sort of gave that push. And yeah, that's sort of where the DNA really came from. I think your brother Richard, he scored that incredible try against, was it Romania in 1987? So that's a pretty like incredible thing.

And we'll talk about the history more of Zimbabwe and rugby in a little moment. But Tondra, I just want to come to you initially. What's kind of your first memories of, you know, someone who was born in Zimbabwe? What's your first kind of memory of seeing the nation playing rugby? So I think I would say for me in terms of memories for Zim playing rugby during the days of the likes of Victor Olonga and Kennedy actually.

So Ken, you were playing in that game against the Sharks when the President 15 played against the Sharks. I think Gary, not Gary, what was his name? The fullback, the rosters of rugby. Andre Jubei was there. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I was actually a ball boy in that game Oh wow I was actually a ball boy in that game I was at Prince Edward So I think Watching the Sharks players Who I'd watched on TV Playing against our local heroes Kennedy, Victor Olonga Brighton, Shivandire And a few Brendan Dawson and a few others It was very inspiring Then I think it must have been a year Or so later I think Cairn had then moved on to the free state. I then watched, it was some, a Sable Select team playing against the, I think it was the SA Under-23, if I'm not mistaken, at the Arara Sports Club. And, you know, that's where I think Wayne Julius was playing. It was a really good side. So I think just seeing those guys playing and playing against South Africa, obviously now we're going to be talking about SAA playing against the Sables.

I think for me that really inspired me to want to play because I saw that all players will play against some of the best players not only on the continent but in the world. So then obviously seeing how Kane went on to play for the Free State and I was very fortunate enough to have followed him then in the Free State and had a few training sessions with him there for the senior team. So, yeah, I think, you know, lots, sort of lots has happened since then. And I'm glad to have had, you know, such inspirational figures to actually get me to want to play in this incredible sport that we love. Absolutely, absolutely.

Kennedy, coming back to you, talking about the history of Zimbabwean rugby, the i think it's easy to forget that going back maybe 30 35 years zimbabwe was the foremost team in africa because the springboks at the time were banned from playing in the world cup and zimbabwe were then the best team in africa and that's how they got to the world cup do you want to just kind of talk about that era what they call the golden era of zimbabwe and rugby and maybe the kind of the period before it as well and people of a younger generation might not realize just how powerful the nation was back in those days. Yeah, and if I can just push it back a little bit further on is that we do have the greatest rivalry that's coming to our shores here in South Africa. But before that, there was a greatest rivalry between the All Blacks and Zimbabwe Rhodesia. And it is known for with the picture that has obviously done it's rounds that Zimbabwe is the only country that the All Blacks haven't been able to beat in a series. So yeah, so we're holding on to that until they come play us again.

I don't know when that will be, but they're probably worried about that record to be kept alive. But yeah, I think it's that kind of history. And a lot of players that were from Rhodesia and Zimbabwe around that time were playing Curry Cup rugby. So the Ray Morts, the Ian Robinsons, they were part of that trade. And I think it goes deeper than that.

And that's what you'll see when we start looking at the Thunder Squad that we're calling, is that there's a lot of families that moved between both countries. It's been happening for years. And we are actually one, although we separated by a border. But the Rhodesia used to play in the Curry Cup. And they would play in finals as well.

So there's a history from there. So the moment the World Cup was announced that it was going to be starting, we were in position to, obviously, because we had already been rubbing shoulders with South Africa, that we were going to be ahead of the other African countries. And it so had been that, you know, Richard was able to become the sort of the shining light that, yes, there is Africans playing rugby. And the Soviet, he went on and scored those two tries. So every time there's a World Cup, I know it's a World Cup coming because I get flooded with messages of that try.

That try, I see it often. So, yeah, so I think that history came because we've always been connected with South Africa, you know, and that's always given us good benefits. And that went on. So we were strong in 87 in the first one and strong in 91 in the second one. And then after that, the professionalism tools started coming into play.

and that's sort of what changed a lot of things for us. Yeah, and obviously the recent history of Zimbabwe is a complex one. We all know that. But unfortunately, one of the effects of that was that the national team, a lot of players such as both of you guys left to go and play in South Africa and unfortunately weren't able to play your rope in Zimbabwe. But that leads us on to our next topic, which is talking about the kind of the diaspora players the players who have zimbabwean heritage who in another world could have played for zimbabwe and represented other nations of course tondi you're a key example of that someone who's born in zimbabwe holds the record for the most tries scored in a single game for the spring box but there's loads of famous players and i guess kennedy before we go and talk about current players just historically what are the first names that come to mind in terms of zimbabwean qualified players who people would instantly recognize who might not realize that they could have played for the sables um yeah well i think in the in the in the olden days there's lots so bobby skinstad would be one of them gary tajman also of zimbabwe in descent so yeah those are just two names that obviously have gone on and and done well um and there's yeah deeper connections we had ian mackintosh who was uh uh your springboard coach also very zimbabwean from bulwia so yes a lot of a lot of um you know players that that that could have played for zimbabwe but didn't yeah i think the ones that spring out to me is david pocock from the wallabies he's one and also beastum tower weirah is the other one that you just people might not realize and you think wow there's incredible talent there and tondi i don't know if you've got a view on these guys maybe the zimbabweans playing in south africa is there like a big network of them is there a big connection of like you like oh he's he's one of us we're on a little club within a club yeah look i think uh you know we with certain players for example i mean i've kept in touch with with ken since uh since i moved in south africa i kept in touch with beast as well uh so there is there is a bit of a community obviously everybody has got their own sort of relationships that they have but it's it's it's great uh it's great to have that uh it's good to have that camaraderie i mean the names that you've just thrown out there you're talking beast uh dave pocock um you know bob skinstad uh gary uh there's dave denton who who played for Scotland.

Yeah, there's quite a number of names of really incredible players that did amazing for other nations that would have, obviously if things were different back home, would have contributed quite significantly to Zim. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about what names that might now go on to contribute for Zim. We know the draw that a World Cup is We see this and I think this is quite a good analogy for zimbabwe is the likes of tonga and samoa when a world cup comes around all these players throw their hat in and say i fancy going to a world cup and maybe they wouldn't get selected for in those guys cases australia or the all blacks but they can get an opportunity to go to a world cup for those kind of tier two nations and i really think that a similar thing could happen for zimbabwe so if we look at like by positions kennedy what kind of names start let's start with the front row first what front rowers are there out there across the world who we could see in a green and white jersey at the 2027 world cup yeah well um i think the front row is probably a a strong set piece we already mentioned beast so he definitely obviously he's not going to play but just that's the the caliber and um i mean you could look at vernon tonga and uh there's a lovejoy who's also playing for the sales sharks great tight head and um yeah so just naming those two already just just emphasizes um how powerful uh you know our scrummings could get and that means we've we've got an extra a player who currently of course i'm talking about players that haven't played for the sables these are potential players you know um of course we know northampton a tight head prop there is uh representing zimbabwe so we we do have uh great numbers uh within the front rowers of course new south wales has also got a prop that has got uh has some connection there so so in the front row we we we would be confident to go into a a a scrumming uh out of war with with with some of the teams yes yeah so those two names that you've mentioned i did a bit of research on them in the backgrounds and you've got lovejoy chawetamba playing for sale sharks he's got 104 pro games behind him and according to the stats that earlier i looked up in this season he averages 14 tackles per 80 which for a tight head prop is incredible at 95 success rate so that's clearly an incredibly capable rugby player so to see him pull on sables jersey would be fantastic and then vernon uh motongo uh currently i think on the books at the stormers um he's averaging 11 tackles per 80 and 98 tackle success so these are big guys powerful guys that's a loose head and a tight head and yeah there are some you know you africans seem very good at scrumming so maybe that you'll turn up at the world cup and there will be some of us poor europeans going oh this is much more difficult than we were expecting. Arguably the area of most strength though for Zimbabwe could be lock.

There are some incredible locks out there. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, just to mention that Darien Landsberg and Eli Snyman, you just mentioned those two in the URC. We've already seen them.

Darren is representing the Lions and then Eli was at the Bulls, but he's moved over to Benetton and he's going to be going to Leicester Tigers. So great, great exponents and both again high quality players, great line-up call. So it's actually a good combo that. So yeah, so we could be getting some line-up ball if this Thunder squad can get together. Yeah, the guy called Conor Evans, he must be Welsh with an Evans.

He must be Welsh so maybe we'll try and look because we could do with a few locks ourselves. I'll tell you that much. Yeah, yeah. So Conor actually obviously with the storm is right now they currently had a function um had a had a chat with him just an hour ago actually and um yeah so so the locking department certainly is looking healthy but again is is is um i think one of his parents is from zimbabwe so yeah so this is yeah good links there as well yeah absolutely and then into the back row dave viewers is a guy who is eligible to play for zimbabwe again and someone else who um played for he he had a career up in england's played for the england uh 15 but i don't think he was ever fully capped for the top side but incredibly experienced at the top level then seb negri the italian um international is there as well and there's a couple of guys uh there's a guy at the sharks and a guy up in racing who you and i have been talking about yeah and and of course uh you know not to forget uh nick hutting um he's also uh got um connections he's actually doing exceptionally well for the sharks right now we do have a lot of players that do go to the sharks 20 what himself was uh at the sharks as well so there's a bit of a a connection with the the italians and and the zimbabweans but yeah that's um it's a good combo to be able to have and uh you know just to reiterate these are players that haven't played for the sables but would possibly qualify through um you know connections we do have our starting team that's qualified us but um uh just like the spring box i've got three or four teams we're also trying to to get to that yeah absolutely so the kind of guys that we've been talking about like um shingy uh mayan mana yaara um plays for racing 92 and i'll see if i can find the clip to center and there later he scored what some people were calling the try of the top 14 season a couple of weeks ago an incredibly long-range effort combining with the likes of joshua two is over of fiji and and players like that someone who is playing regularly at the highest level in the top 14. yeah he's an exceptional talent um i've seen him almost three years ago playing for kingswood uh college in in um gramestown down there uh uh he's yeah phenomenal every all the coaches that we we've spoken to have said he is um definitely one to to be watching and it'll be good to have him gracing the world cup field of course i'm sure france after seeing this podcast i'm gonna be coming over to racing and saying listen you come here son you know so yeah but he's a wonderful talent certainly um there's a lot of excitement around him 100 100 so going kind of into the backs now well obviously we know that the scrum half is going to be hilton with a ricky who i've had the pleasure of interviewing he's the team captain so that's there's no debate to be had there and we know ian prior did a great job during the rugby africa cup last year but who's this rugby league guy that you were messaging me about earlier yeah uh jake avarula and he's uh he's obviously playing um at rugby league and his uh mother i think is is zimbabwean um but he's is absolutely he's one of those league players that if you bring him uh through to union he's going to be a absolute star he really is playing um for the dolphins in in australia he'll he will he will light up the world cup that's for sure and probably having him at fullback um he would be quite quite uh quite a good addition and he's apparently he has shown some interest to be to be interested in in and getting into some of those discussion so but we'll discuss i suppose a bit later how that should be taken up you know well if he's playing in our island in australia he can at least commute from home because that's where the world is so that's the main thing into the centers we're named the court my eye brayden enor uh incredibly successful player multiple super rugby winner with the crusaders he's signed for perpignan in the top 14 so we know he's not going to get capped for the all blacks so that's potentially an opportunity there Jonathan Roach down at the Stormers I know Harry will be sad about that because he loves him he thinks he's a great player and then kind of the most kind of surprising one later on in the backs maybe the last one that we'll talk about Matsushima from Japan how is he how's he Zimbabwean yeah so so again I think is is he was he was born in South Africa, but his mom is Zimbabwean.

I think mom or father are Zimbabwean. So yes, deep connections there. So I think the more you look at this list, you understand that Zimbabweans are really all over the world. You mentioned Brennan Inor. He's, of course, done so well for the Crusaders, always been tipped to play for the All Blacks, but he's obviously moving to France, so he'd be a great addition.

And Johnny Roach, of course, his dad is Zimbabwean. I've just spoken to him also early on today they had to storm its function and um yeah so his dad is zimbabwean wonderful great potential of course i'm sure there will be lots of eyes around the spring box for him as well so yeah so that's going to be a to you know a a nice inside back line uh with real potential there sir i was just going to say ken now it sounds like uh you're on the disabled payroll there you're busy recruiting for the disabled yeah I wish I was I wish I was on some payroll that's uh they call it a a a fan who's uh who's lost his marbles the moment I I saw these potentials like wow actually this could be something incredible so yeah so um but of course you know you know Pete well better than than I do so we always are trying to just uh help our fellow as Marvin coach there something can you talk about from a player's point of view and maybe you know in the era that you played in maybe playing for zimbabwe wasn't as much of an option because they maybe weren't qualifying for world cups at the time and south africa were back being at world cups but someone who's who qualified for for two countries can you talk about that thought process that goes into deciding what country to play for i mean we know the kind of financial side of it but what what what was your way of thinking about it look i think by the time there was an option for me to potentially play for them i was already having injury i was sort of towards the end of my career i was having injury issues but i think uh the challenge that a lot of the players these players that we're talking about that they face uh is that you know you're playing for you spoke about the player because the clubs are investing quite a lot of money into the players and they ideally in fact in most cases they do demand that their players obviously prioritize their club over their their nation especially if they're coming from from a tier two nation so i mean you even have the same issue with fijian players uh the clubs not wanting them to go back to go and play for their for their nations So at the end of the day, it ends up becoming more about sort of the wallet as opposed to what the heart is to say, which is often very difficult for players because now you've got to think, you know, you really want to play for, you really want to play World Cup or you want to play for your nation during the various competitions. I think even a current player now, if I'm not mistaken, Mufaro, the fullback, he was playing for the Lions, the fullback of the Sables. He was having an issue with the Lions, something along those lines where they didn't want him to be spending too much time at the Sables. And it's a similar thing for Blythe as well, who was playing for the Sharks.

So I think if there was a way of, I guess, incentivising the clubs to allow for their players to play for the Tier 2 nations, I think that would go a really long way. At the end of the day, I think we all want, when the Tier 2 nation is strong, rugby becomes strong. It's not just about the Big Five or the big nations. I think rugby is in a good space when everybody is playing well. Yeah, I completely agree.

And with the new eligibility, or the eligibility rule change, that came a couple of years ago ahead of the last World Cup, where you can stand down from a nation for three years, and if you are either born in that nation or you have a parent or grandparent from that nation, you can change your allegiances. that has been helping again coming back to the likes of tongo and samoa attract players so hopefully it can help simbawa as well the only thing is it tends to be kind of older players the other side of 30 who kind of one one last hurrah almost kind of situation no for sure you i think once again i think at the end of the day uh as long as the big the clubs where the players are obviously getting to pay their salaries against it, it's always going to make it very difficult for them, despite what the rule changes are, which are great for the likes of Zim, Tonga, and all the other smaller nations. But as long as you don't have buy-in from the clubs, it's always going to be really difficult for the players to choose nation over club. Yeah, I agree with that. Because that's always been the biggest challenge because you've got to, like Tundra says, that there's a psychological element to it where you're thinking about, you know, both ends of how do I make a career of it and also trying to get loyalty.

So there's that push and pull that's a difficult one. Yeah. Just kind of understand that, you know, the mindset of these players a little bit more. Maybe, Tundra, you can shed some light on this. For Zimbabwe, specifically is it kind of zimbabweans who have left zimbabwe to play rugby so they kind of learned the game in zimbabwe and left or is it mostly someone who's got a grandparent or maybe a slightly more distant relationship with the country uh look i think it probably a mix of of both uh you do have like for example uh you do have like Dave Evers who left Zim sort of I think during that very dark period of Zim during the farm invasions.

So he still has a very, I mean, even if you look at the work that Dave did, Dave Polcock, that is, were so passionate about Zim, still wanted to contribute. so I think there is a mix of guys that are from Zim and they would like to go back or they would like an opportunity to represent Zimbabwe and then there is the guys that was maybe they were not necessarily born there but there is some sort of relation whether it be their mother or some sort of relationship so I think it's a bit of a mix of both Fair enough, fair enough and then Kennedy kind of looking ahead now to the SA game, the SAA game so the squad has been announced for it they i was hearing that because it's being technically played outside of the test window there are a couple of availability struggles for zimbabwe so maybe this is not the strongest zimbabwe team that we're going to see yeah that's certainly true and of course i suppose they've got to be able to take whichever game is placed in front of them but um yeah it's definitely out outside the window we do know the french clubs and a lot of our players are playing in there, they're stuck with their no, always honor that contract, you know, so, but it is an exciting opportunity for anybody, I mean, if we were part of the Sables, we would honor, regardless of how we go, we would love to get onto the field and face the Springbok, so it is a great opportunity for those who perhaps aren't in the squad, they can perhaps give themselves, right into the mix going towards the World Cup because every game now that they're going to play, whether it is this warm-up matches or in the Nations Cup as they're going to play in America and in November period, you've got to be able to claim your spot. And that's the challenge, right? You mentioned it earlier on, is that because there's some positivity that's going around, some players are going to start popping out of the woodworks that, listen, I'm playing in New Zealand and my dad is Zimbabwe, can I have a chance? So I think if you do have a chance and opportunity to play in this next game, you've got to be able to take it.

And that's what's going to be important. They're going to have to learn about what resilience is. They're going to have to learn what professional rugby is about. And you're going to do it pretty quick in that pressure cooker because that's what World Cup rugby is about. Because they're going to face Wales.

They're going to place England. and play tonga and those are tough tough matches ahead and you know having seen what richard and then they had to play france um they had to play uh romania luckily and scotland in that first world cup and he just said to me that playing france and scotland was it it went by in probably 10 seconds he says the game went about 10 seconds because it was just so fast and intense and before you know it the game was over and the score well it wasn't looking too great but yeah so so so being able to do this is is the best way um for the ball what as someone who's obviously coaching at one of the franchises what are you expecting from the saa squad it looks like it's going to be a lot of unknown players in that team yeah well unknown alone unknown to many but known to us because we we obviously are are working with them um and and to be honest with you i promise you there isn't a big gap uh yes a lot of unknowns i i see who's also should be on that zimbabwe team list he has also got some uh a link with the zimbabwean team he possibly could be a fly off a young real great potential fly off i i i followed him playing for kids uh school rugby um so there's going to be a lot of those players that a lot people might not know but they're the next cab off the the ranks if you want to put it that way and the difference between them is very minimal so yes it may look like unknown but these are they've already had two or three years being around a urc squad anyway so they they definitely are prepped for it so and it's it's exciting to to be able to see some of those youngsters also on the international level this soon i think that's a good thing about it what represents success for zimbabwe in this game then do you think sure yeah i think yeah i'd like to hear 20's uh uh opinion on that as well for me i think that um to be able to to to to come out there with with a positive um uh uh contribution um a fight of course and their resilience is going to be tested and that uh i think the whole nation and and all the supporters have been waiting because qualifying was everything right but now the real work starts and this is what it's about so i think you've also got to take into consideration that the people that are following yes the score line might not be favorable but um you've got to take it in context that um you know there's a lot of uh players that are coming straight out of club rugby some of them are still working and and and have to play you know professionals professional players so so yeah so for me i'd just like them to show some good fight some good resilience and the rest the structures and the skills and all that kind of stuff will come later this is about testing what this resilience is like knowing what stands in front of them i think on my side i think i would echo on what uh at the end of the day i don't think it's really going to be about what the scoreboard says but it's going to be about seeing who is going to put their hand up uh as ken also mentioned earlier that uh there may be several players that are not going to be available from the zim side uh for this game then it's got to be a next one a next man up uh type of situation where those that have been given an opportunity they've got to show that they've got to show that guts and regardless of whatever the scoreboard may be regardless of whatever names are on the other side uh are they gonna play from minute one to 80. and uh i mean what an incredible opportunity to play are going to separate the guys. I mean, these are the same guys that are playing against the Springboks, against other internationals in the UFC. So there's very little to say.

They're going to be out to also want to prove that they deserve a shot. So I think it's going to be an incredible test for our guys. And I've no doubt that they're going to give it their best. And at the end of 18 minutes, we're going to be very part of them. I just want to ask you something quickly.

You talked about players not being available and everything and it's outside the test window. Isn't it a good idea for them to play this game this soon? Isn't it a bit jumping the gun kind of a thing? Maybe it's going to do more damage than good for argument's sake. Maybe wait another month or so until everybody's now found a feat that Nations Championship is going, etc.

I'm just worried about the downside of this potentially. Why did they say yes to this game outside of the test window? Yeah, that's a very good question because that leads me into something that obviously I've been a bit passionate about. For me, I think Coach Pete Bernardi, who you guys had on the pod, did such an exceptional job in qualifying Zimbabwe to the World Cup. And I just feel that, and it happens often.

It happened in Namibia. It happens everywhere, especially the smaller nations. The moment a big step is taken, like qualifying for the World Cup, there becomes a lot of interference, right? And I'm just worried that I hope that Pete is not getting too much of that influence because that's what happens, because everyone wants to get onto this train that's moving. and ultimately he's got to be able to sort of pick, you know, the right opportunities.

Like you say, a lot of questions were going about that. Why would you sort of accept this game against the A team? It could have possibly been played in a month's time because it is a curtain raiser ultimately anyway. So there was discussions about that and you're right, if there is a humongous score, there could be a lot of, you know, disappointment and that kind of stuff so i think for me what's important is going forward is that you know the interference around pete should try to be minimalized and he earned the right to go to world cup so i think he he needs to earn the right if he's going to live by the sword he want at least let him die by his sword you know rather than having too much influence so so that's something that um you know one would like to just uh keep a close eye on um but i guess now that the test is there you've got to try and make the best of it i suppose you've got to you you've got to get the players to to adapt and say okay well listen let's look at positives here um if i if i was given a chance to to have played and we did we we did play the australian team uh when i was uh in in zimbabwe and it was the best thing for me you know um i i enjoyed it yes the score was big but they there was so much learnings and i got to be able to go up against some super rugby stars and and and wallaby greats so yes uh for the players i think they need to take it on board like 20 says they need to show us that that there is fight and they've got it in within them to be able to stand up so um yeah so i think they need to take that opportunity now that it is there but i do take your point um yeah if you're not really why why commit to something of that nature i just want to jump back to the eligibility stuff and you missed two world cups because of eligibility fudging whatever you want to call it you know you played a couple of games in zimbabwe that effectively meant you could never play for south africa under the old rules just talk to us about that a little bit i mean you're a rugby world world of famer yet you could never really play you know go the next step you play for the cheetahs and the bulls and likes but you could even play super rugby if i remember correctly because they only picked players who could play for South Africa potentially. Talk to me about that in your, you know, the disappointment.

Sorry to, you know, be a bit after the meal, yeah, but I'm interested in that. Yeah, that's, it's a sad story. I don't know why you want to bring on this podcast that we're talking with so much positivity. But yeah, it does hurt because, um, I guess at that time, the eligibility rule was, was made for a lot of the, the, the islanders that were moving from back and forth from Tonga to Samoa to New Zealand and obviously I was then caught in the middle because when I started playing my qualifying games and I hadn't played for Zimbabwe for three years the moment I got to the third year and I did qualify so SA Rugby at that stage went and inquired about that because you know there was possibility that I'll be selected in in the in the springbok squad and world rugby said no he he just missed it by two weeks or something we already made the rule that you can't change uh to a new country and i was like yeah but i haven't played for three years which i was following what you guys said and they said yeah but we can't document that to that so yeah it became it became quite a back and forth and and and some lawyers and funny enough um some lawyers from the free state uh offered to to take on the case for free that they're going to take on world rugby and yeah it became quite an emotional um you know uh process but yeah so so when when i'm sitting back and and now in my coaching days and i i see about five years ago the legibility rule has changed and you think it yourself yes that could have affected i could have still had a couple of years and extra years overseas so it affected me playing overseas it affected a lot but um yeah so so so be it i guess that's that's that's part of it i you you take what you what you're given so i kind of going back to looking at the future again and you mentioned playing overseas there kennedy so tong uh sorry zimbabwe are playing against tonga usa and canada this july and then they go on to play the november test and i promise you i'll make this commitment on camera now because they're playing in the uk i believe in november so i will go to a game at least one game but they're playing at tonga usa and canada in july which i think are great tests for zimbabwe because they're the tonga is probably the strongest but they're in kind of it's the hardest first then usa's last thousand then canada might be by the time you get to that game might be a competitive game and i think that's it these are great opponents for zimbabwe to play against but on the i want to ask you you know someone who's played abroad and stuff for any zimbabwean player who maybe hasn't gone on a tour before what advice would you have for a player going on their first long haul overseas tour uh i think since they're going to the uk i would say they need to pick at least four pairs of skins because it's gonna be so um i have to say uh i was fortunate enough to have played in wales and and I think in my first year or my second year, all this winter in a hundred years. So as a young African, Zimbabwean boy, the cold, we did not get along.

But now on the real, I think it's an incredible experience that the guys have in store. I mean, it's really like a little, I think every single game for them is so vital. If you look at the SAA game, you know, Envia mentioned about you know should they have really taken it And the reality is Kent said the game is there now And I think we are not expected to win it either way, whether we are the best squad or with the guys that are available now. But by the time we get to play against Tonga, against the US, against Canada, the guys would have had really, they would have put in some really good reps. And I'm sure that there would be a lot more confident in the structures that are in place they'll be a little more confident uh in themselves as a unit uh so i think it's really just about them not putting pressure on themselves just going out there and just going to go and enjoy themselves uh and yeah i have no doubt that they're gonna have a successful uh uk tour you've brought up the dragons so that's my excuse to talk about it from a welsh point of view so according to wikipedia you scored 10 tries in 28 games for the dragons talk to me about those days like who who would have been the big stars in the team when you were there maybe the welsh internationals and you mentioned the cold i'm sure there was a lot of rain as well but those were back in the pro 12 era of the what was celtic league the italians had just joined talk talk me through those memories uh so look i must say so when i went to the dragons uh i had come from the stormers uh moved to the lions and i i think the reality is that i wasn't anymore when i moved to the lions uh then the opportunity to move dragons came and and i must say when when i moved there it was really it really just brought life back into me uh and just the passion that is there for rugby small crowds uh but everyone is like really into the the team i remember my first game uh going out of the uh going into the into the changing room now bearing in mind i've come from the stormers where uh the average crowd was about 34 35 000 uh per game now uh darren edwards was a coach uh former uh welsh and uh and uh scrumov so he's pumping the guys up he's like hey boys it's a feel it's a full ass out there we got 8 000 people I was like, oh.

Hey, that is still a good crowd in Wales, all right? So they were so pumped about it, the 8,000 people there. But really, even though it was small crowds, you could really feel the crowd. And I mean, in terms of the big stars that were there, Torby Faletau is probably one of the most talented back rowers I had the privilege of playing with. Dan Lidiot.

I think Dan Lilliot should be right up there with the highest tackle counts in World Rugby during World Cups and in between. So those guys were really, really good. And I really enjoyed my time in Wales. Hi, there you go. This is the first time I've actually been able to talk about Wales on one of these podcasts for a long time.

So I enjoyed that. Thank you. Kennedy, you talked about these players, you know, playing in URCs and squads and, you know, being used to competition. but a key thing that you're talking about, and we've talked about this before, is cohesion. They're used to playing with each other.

So now we can go, you know, pick one here, pick a mix, pick one there, and pick one there, but when they come together, they're not going to be used to playing with each other. They're going to, yeah, they might be good players on their own, but how would that work as a team now, suddenly? How do you get that done, get that sort of thing? Yeah, good question, because I think it's not per se just obviously a Zimbabwean issue. I think Tonga has to go through it.

Samoa always have to go through it because, and Fiji, yes, they've got the Druah, but a lot of their top players play in France. So every team has got that. And I think that's become a main component for international coaches. And I think that it's, you actually aren't going to get them coach tactics and scenarios. It's more about, can you get synergy?

Can you get the team building? Can you get them, you know, understanding each other so that when we're shouting at each other on the field, we know it's not personal, but that's because we bonded. So actually, you almost leave your coaching hat away and get that right first, if anything. And I think that's what international rugby is about. And it's about teams that use their hotel time wisely rather than obviously everyone just sleeping in their rooms.

You've got to try to use that period to connect up and stuff like that. And that's where technology is going to start playing a role. I think if you can use that, we've already seen what the Springboks are doing with that, you know, the game that Arasi has developed. That also helps with team cohesion. I got feedback from the players about that.

So I think it's about who can do that the best. Because every team now, unless you are in South Africa or New Zealand, where the majority of your players play locally, the rest are, I mean, Argentina have got nobody playing. all their team are all overseas so they only get to meet in those windows and that's why and it's surprising to see them doing so well so all right you mentioned the coaches now let's talk about the coaches we know pete bernardy and the likes who else is there you know and uh there's a couple of names that i'm aware of but i'm i'm i'm teasing you i want you to know to name that because these are not a bunch of uh you know new newcomers these are seasoned coaches proper coaches guys with lots of experience international experience talk to me about them yeah well yeah It's funny, so obviously just going to be repeating what I saw, but apparently that's also been diffused. We know this age we're living in with social media, some things are true, some aren't. But one thing I know is true is that Pete Bernardi is the head coach and he has got Liam Middleton, who is sort of a technical advisor that is around.

But I hear Josh Strauss, who was with the Bulls in the Curry Cup, obviously a winner of the varsity cup with UCT. is going to be helping with the forwards. Gertzmael, I understand that he is no longer involved with the team. And then I saw that Floch Saliers is going to be added as a kicking coach, but that was also diffused. So, yeah, so you are probably in the same boat as I am.

But obviously, we're going to probably have to wait and see by next week. And I think a lot of it is obviously just temporary because this game obviously came at a late date. but obviously the proper staff will be put together for the nation's cup because that's what world rugby i suppose is supporting them for and obviously wants them to do uh what they're going to do at the world cup in that it's almost a dress rehearsal for that i just want to ask both of you guys you know we've talked about the zimbabwean diaspora throughout this pod do you think that people are going to be surprised in all these places around the world where the sables turn up do you think people are going to be surprised how many zimbabweans turn up in the stands with flags and things do you think it's going to be you think you're going to take the world by storm i i think that i have to say uh when i was playing super rugby there is not a single place where i went to where i did not see zimbabweans yeah there's a new zealand called invocago now invocago in south africa it would be similar to where do the griffins play again ken welcome welcome it'll be similar to welcome where there's one road and it was there so of which uh australia there is a lot of zimbabweans there so i have no doubt that uh you're gonna you're gonna not only see zimbabweans that have traveled to go and see to go to watch and support tables but you're gonna see a lot of zimbabweans living in australia that all New Zealand that will be there to support the same. So, yeah, I think we're going to see the Zimbos being supported, similar to how the Kenyans are supported in the Sevens. Yeah, to add to that, I think Tony is so right.

There is going to be a mobile group. We've already started seeing it. I watched some of the video clips of Zimbabwe playing against Zambia, and some of the players actually had their own personal supporting crowds. Michael Kumburai, who was schooled at St Albans College, yeah, he had his whole, it was almost like about I think 300 people that were, that had come with his dad and mom and they were there to support, they even had t-shirts written, welcome back home Michael, because obviously he's playing his rugby in France. So I think that this is going to give Zimbabweans all over the world a platform to be innovative, to be patriotic and support.

And that's why I think we talk about the Thunder Squad as something on the side. But I think it's so important because we want to be able to try to connect with Zimbabweans that are everywhere. It doesn't matter whether they were born there, weren't born there. But we want to show that if there's any slight hint of availability, we would like them to enter in discussion. So you want your coaches speaking to them four years before a World Cup.

You want them to understand every Zimbabwe that's available, whether they're in Canada, whether they're in Chile, because that just gives you a bigger pool to pick from. We've seen the success the Springboks have had with having players in Japan while developing players at home. That's a good recipe. So I think there's a lot of work that needs to go into that, of looking after your local players, but also looking after your local available players. Even if they aren't available, just stay in touch with them and stay connected because you never know, right?

We've seen that. You mentioned that, yes, in their 28s and 30s, that experience could always be added. I'd rather have 40, 30-year-olds than have just 22 players to play from. So I think that's, as part of this World Cup, what it's done. And it's great work.

Your hats have to go off. to Peter and the staff and the players, that they've given us a platform to be able to build from here. And it's up to every Zimbabwean to help make sure that it's successful. And it's easy that it can be derailed. We've seen it happening.

Namibia have dominated 22 years without anybody else going, and they're not going to the World Cup. So, yeah, I think it's an important cross-junction for Zimbabwe, and it's important that we try to get it right. I think another thing that is important to note is that the perception about Zim Rugby has changed. And a lot of those players that would not have given going back to play for Zim a thought are now in a position where they're like, OK, this could actually be a possibility. So I think what we are likely to see, we play against SA.

The guys put up a good fight. we play against Canada, Tonga, and in the US, the guys do well, then suddenly you've got a whole lot of players now, part of that Thunder squad, that are like, hey, guys, I want to put my hand up. Then suddenly now Pete is in a position where, you know, he's got to choose, okay, do I go with the guys that have gotten us this far, or do I bring in these guys? So I do think that not only for this World Cup, but I think beyond this World Cup, because the perception about rugby, about Zim rugby has significantly changed. We are definitely going to see a lot more players making themselves available to play for Zimbabwe.

Thank you so much for your insights this afternoon, Kennedy and Tundere. It's been absolutely fascinating and I can't wait till we get to talk about Zimbabwe again. Hopefully we'll be able to do something during the month of July while you guys are playing test matches. So just massively appreciate both of you taking the time to educate us about what it's like being Zimbabwe and rugby legends in one way or another. Thank you guys and enjoyed it and thank you for giving these sables a platform to be able to express themselves.

I'm just a little bit sad because I was really hoping that you were going to ask a question about schoolboy rugby because I've got one drag I have to I have to break every time an opportunity i'm now giving myself an opportunity so in 2000 prince edward uh where ken and i played uh we went to play against power boys we beat them at uh at the saint john's festival so it's a nice brag because obviously top top schools in south africa and yeah we we beat them quite uh quite convincingly that's actually nice all boys one of the best schools in south africa one of the top five you know yeah that's that's that's a big brag yeah yeah top one they they went to three seasons that beaten yeah i remember that's where sean erasmus is now kennedy all right now um also of course the albans kennedy you were coaches director of rugby or whatever you get coach at st albans you just mentioned your player from st albans as well you've also got a bit of a link there yeah yeah definitely it's and and there's been lots of zimbabweans that have come through there unfortunately we didn't get to play pal boys to beat them but uh they're still on the radar we'll we'll be able to get you beat pittoria boys i didn't you yes we're playing them this weekend so yeah we'll see what happens yeah anyway thanks guys this is the loose pass rugby podcast only on megaphone rugby Thank you.

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