Is Leo Cullen Finally Running Out of Road at Leinster? | Pat McCarry

So I think there's been an artificial construct built here that they were doing that they were getting the trophies and the Ninaber came in and sat them. I think Ninaber was brought in for one thing and it was a riverboat gambler move to be honest by Leo and the guys. But more importantly you just don't seem like a guy who would make me want to run through a wall for you. Andy Farrell does, Ninaber does, just watch Chasing the Sun. If they lose against the Lions he's done no?

Like there's no way. If he loses a home quarter-final then Leo can just say goodbye. Yeah, I even think if he doesn't win the URC, like if he doesn't win the league. We heard rumors about that final against the Bulls at Leinster. There was a huge shouting match, but the rules went off between Linovo and Cullen.

I mean, I'm asking the question, are the coaches putting in the same direction? Do they have the same vision? This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the Lekker Rugby Pod. And we've got Pat McCary in daylight for a change.

I mean we're not keeping up to midnight hours burning the midnight oil. Welcome back Pat firstly and welcome back Harry and this is going to be a part about why Lens to Lost. I gave you homework, I told you go back come back and give me three reasons each of you why Lens to Lost. We're more interested in that seeing that we're Irish yeah so uh Pat let's sort of view what's your thoughts? Yeah um yeah it's great great to be back on in these unfortunate um bleak uh situation and the The only good thing is that whoever, Mother Nature has given us a sunny day here in Ireland.

We're up in the mid-20s there and the sun is shining. So it lifts the mood a little bit and you kind of, the sun also rises, you know. There's another day to kind of live on. But here's me just kind of stalling so I don't have to get to these three reasons. Yeah, I've jotted down.

And it's funny, I'll start off with the positive one before, because I don't want to go into too much moaning about Leinster, lancer what they've done or what they need to change and stuff but i just wrote down four names uh luke jalibert penna and louis be very like just all sensational like you know had amazing games like you know you go to a big final they often talk about teams tightening up and tensing it like up and not bringing their best as well but you know all those four guys even though luke had a little bit of a hair tug on joe mccarthy like uh they all had amazing games they brought it in a in a big final. And yeah, there's a couple of scores that they got against Leinster where, you know, whatever your kind of biases are or whatever you're leaning, you just have to go, Jesus, fair play. Like they did brilliant. So those four guys were fantastic. And Wachie was fantastic as well, I thought.

The other one is going to be a very Irish excuse here as well. But the heat plus physicality equals just like Leinster had no spark. They had such a lack of go forward. as well we saw it happen to ulster the night before against montpellier where the temperatures were in its into the into the 30s it was very humid and they just like you could see there was i think even after leinster got their first score with tommy o'brien they got in for a little huddle and you can see jack conan was gulping for air and that was after like a leinster score so that just takes away from me a little bit like and like what are you going to do about that like you're you know and leinster can't really complain because we've been playing nearly every game in the Champions Cup in Dublin, you know. So just because we have to go to Bilbao for a final, you know, they can't complain too much.

But, you know, Bordeaux in the south of France would have been a bit more used to playing in those conditions. So they took advantage of it. Leinster just didn't seem to have that kind of extra level or that extra zip about their game. So that would be another one. And then the other one, I think I was joking about it a little bit, but it's probably a double-edged sword.

It's like it's the focus on the defense since Jack Nienaber came in, this blitz defense that they kind of pushed all their chips in behind. And it's like, we're going to go and do this. We're going to press up on teams. You see it works really well in certain games. And, you know, they really their line speed is something they're so proud of and they press up on you as well.

So it's kind of that focus on it. And then when that doesn't go well, like what's the plan B? And then the other thing for that, and it's a big kind of thing that's mentioned about ever since Nienaber kind of came in, and it's not even his fault really um 100 not his fault but it's the the focus from leinster's attack which used to be their biggest uh plus has kind of just drifted away and it's like is tyler blayendahl who's took over from goodman as the attack coach is he a forceful enough presence to kind of get leinster attacking like they should be and um you know we might touch on a little bit just how leinster had to work so hard and so hard and go through so many phases for their scores whereas Bordeaux were just kind of getting intercepts, getting quick tries, scoring off first phase as well. So Andy Doney kind of used to play for Leinster, Harlequins spoke about it in Bilbao after the game. It was like how Bordeaux just kicked so well and they just caused chaos with their kicking game, whereas Leinster were just going phase, phase, phase, going nowhere, getting bashed back.

Where was the spark? Where was the creativity? And we only saw that when Ciarán Frawley kind of came on and Leinster went for broke. So, yeah, a bit of that, a bit of bit on Nienaber. Like, I know that I hope in a way there'll be some strong South African voices here telling me I'm wrong as well.

But he's came in. It's like a lot of the oxygen has been sucked into fixing that defense. And then the focus has gone away from attack as well. So all that combined and not forgetting like Bordeaux just look like an incredible side. Like so.

So that's my tree. And yeah, looking forward to seeing what you guys have to say on that. oh no that was me think that was me thinking uh I was pondering uh Makaryisms and wondering if they had intellectual heft and I see that I see that Pat I see exactly what you're talking about although I will you know as a sort of sub note 28 degrees even with some unity it doesn't seem like it should have been that much of a drama and in the way they almost have psyched themselves up by talking about red hair and uh I don't know it just seemed like it was too much of a it was too much of theme Andre Pretorius on the the incredibly exclusive Megafone locker room chat that we have during every big game he was like I would kill for 28 degrees in Japan that must be wonderful so there's a lot of rugby gets played in that temperature um so I think too many turnovers was a big problem here and I'm gonna do it because so I'll do it because and then a because so number too many turnovers because leinster plays with too many passing intricate bicycle spoke type attacks you look at the whole champions cup season for example the only two things that leinster were top in uh bordeaux was on top on every stat everything but on the two that were the top leinster was carries and passes incredible amount of work just you know some i'm actually agreeing with pat in a different way here they built their attack that's so laborious that it saps them on defense he says defense saps them on attack i say you know it's so it's a chicken egg we're back to the same causation that people are arguing about for 8 000 years or whatever um i think that's that jacques nidaber was brought in to close the gap for leinster that is built for trophies and wasn't getting them so i think there's been an artificial construct built here that they were doing they they were getting the trophies and then ninaba came in and sat them i think ninaba was brought in for one thing and it was a riverboat gambler move to be honest by leo and the guys they said we're getting out physicaled um can we bring in someone that can you know help our st michael's and black rocks guys play more like they're from the street you know can we write our name saw my name on your chest so the problem was that the defense didn't get to do much here because i don't know of any team any defensive coach that can handle it if you have 24 turnovers and interception tries are not on the defense that's not need aber's book that's on his ledger that is attack that is a predictable attack where i know where to be to intercept the ball it happened more than once one got running for a try but another one stalled an attack so it was sort of a maybe a 10-point swing it became too obvious more fun at 16 out of 16 tackles uh borscht on 1616 they weren't missing any tackles bordeaux knew exactly where everyone was going so too many turnovers because they were getting lined up 24 turnovers o'brien burn conan hugo joe josh and froley i mean those are some of the best players so i think that's a system error because those guys are great in ireland and they don't turn the ball over so andy farrell's doing something different okay that's my first point second point is the wrong emotional there's something wrong with the emotional setup there that is not getting them primed the way that bordeaux was primed that the northampton saints were primed um so at irk level the superior talent and test internationals 32 test internationals that wins out but when up against another team that has about the same amount of test internationals and quality it looks like to me that the calm taciturn leo approach with whatever interplay is happening between him and jacques and him and tyler and the other people it's not revving everyone's engines up to maniac level um which is what you need and it leads to these stupid tries like like Damien Penault smashing Jameson Gibson Park in the back and getting the scuffed kick and then offload. You know, this intensity that's so ready to go. Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter to me right now.

It just means it looked like they were listless. So too many turnovers, wrong emotional framework, and then finally is the two predictable, maybe a little bit more. I'm going to unwrap that a little bit more. It feels like to me that Bordeaux picked its foreign players really well, for a specific element so they had this framework jolly bear luke uh more fana uh the two wings you know brilliant wings and then some mainstays in the scrum but they also brought in people like sadhu uh they picked up sari they picked up um adam coleman and got the best rugby out of him um and i kept thinking so okay bordo did it well was lenster too predictable by just sticking with archer snaiman injury prone and rico awani at the end of his career like what what who would i have picked like who would i convinced boden barrett to come over play with jordy barrett one more season with and scott barrett get all the barretts um just do something different and so i felt like not nina but did his job in the urk got that trophy but to get to this level the attack had to be better i i think it's okay for lens to the kick 19 times in some matches but not this match i think it's okay for them to have a you know low tackle percentage but not on this match because if you don't tackle louis blbara immediately he scores a try and then the final thing i would say is um there was you know like i think the defense kept bordeaux to about their average and i know know Jacques would want to do better than that but 19 points by Leinster is not enough so that's where I'm looking more at the attack yeah it's um it is it is interesting like because in the lead up to um this final like you know there's a lot of interviews with like let's say the Leinster generation that you know started winning Champions Cups or Heineken Cups back then as well and so there was there's talk of um yeah good point about like yeah who the foreign signings are that you're making uh like they're kind of legendary in leinster like brad torren was one he only came in for like four months or something but he's still spoken of like and he's kind of in in awe of like just how tough this guy was and what he would do and you know if he like i think even rob carney mentioned it if brad torren hit a rook the rook was over like you know that that kind of didn't you have rocky rocky elson as well yeah and like rocky elson like i remember um yeah like probably one of the biggest man crushes I ever had watching that 2009 final where he was just everywhere. Yeah, he was sensational.

And there are these people that come in where I think Jordy was probably a little bit closer to that last season where he was this big personality that the lads kind of seemed to learn an awful lot from. Why couldn't you keep Jordy for another year? Yeah, I wonder whether it was mentioned as well or it could have been a deal where he just came over and then just had to be a bit closer to home. I think it was even discussed last year because he went so well that like, was there talk that he could come over somewhere? I don't know whether they wanted him.

Like he had to come back a little bit closer to home as well. And then Rico was kind of lined up as well. And yeah, he was, he was an interesting one yesterday. Like he, there was, he had an okay season and then started heating up near the end of the, the, the year as well. But to, to have James Lowe, who's like your big game player, not even in the match day, 23, Rico on the left wing we played a lot of center for most of the season and then he just seemed to be the only guy that wasn't reading the script there was blitz defense and then he was gone haywire he was rushing up on nobody and it was like this L shape he was often kind of jumping the line as well so he was good in attack but then a lot of his meters were made when the race was already run as well so yeah there won't be talk of keeping him on for a second year as well.

He did okay, but you want your big sign-ins. Even look at Bordeaux, Ben, Tommy, Founa, just this big, huge guy who comes on and has an impact for you. And Sneiman, all the risks and all the gambles were taken on him. But as you mentioned rightly, injury-prone as well. So you can't really complain if you get to the end of the season and he's not there because you know the injury profile that he has as well.

So it'll be interesting to see who Leinster bring in next season. Are they allowed to bring anybody in? Or there's been no talk of any big signings yet as well. So do they have something? And it's a World Cup.

You know, we're coming into a World Cup year. So who wants to go far from home if you want to get selected for your World Cup side as well? So, yeah, really interesting kind of points there. And, yeah, you're right as well about just the kind of, like, even looking at it yesterday, maybe Tommy O'Brien was the only one who had a bit of punch. and tommy o'brien's punch is basically i'm gonna just cannonball through everybody like and it's like you know he doesn't care about his own health so like he'll just go head first into things and and and he'll take hits along the way like but there was no kind of guile or kind of you know slick moves or or anything like that it was all a bit predictable so um and then yeah at the same time when you're doing that and you're getting i think it happened in the start of the second half you're getting smashed back back back back on your carries as well it's um you know what are you going to do different and I think that's that's where maybe Frawley uh that's another interesting kind of topic to get into like Frawley came on and actually started attacking the lion and playing closer up to their faces like and and getting into them you know but he's going to Connacht next season they've let him go and they're bringing back Joey Carberry from Bordeaux who got an Achilles injury at the end of the season and he's injury prone as well like so yeah it seems like uh you know muddled thinking anyway to say the least we talked about homework earlier on and I gave Harry and Pat some homework to do but I also have my own homework and that is to ask you guys to like this video if you liked it and to subscribe to our channel make sure that you are subscribed for some reason people often think that they are subscribed and they end up not being and the likes help YouTube see that they must show a video to more people so that part of the algorithm Speaking of the algorithm if you like to share it please share it from the YouTube app That also helps.

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Yeah, I think that's about it for now. Without any further ado, back to Pat and Harry. So, Envia, the thing I was thinking about, because of our embeddedness, we've been studying the insides of teams. And one thing that we're talking about with the coaches from the Stormers, and I know you're the same with the Bulls, is how much time they spend in studying an opponent. And what I was thinking about is Leinster has almost become the most easy opponent in the world to study because it's effectively the same team on Ireland and Leinster.

So you can look at individual tendencies. You can study Gary Ringrose all you want. you know it's almost like you just have oodles and oodles of uh of footage that's not the case um when you're looking at a french team playing an irish team it's not that it's not that common but it's it's i think in a way bordeaux's analysts and their coaching staff had a better look at it and then there is an irishman on the bordeaux's uh coaching team right so i kept thinking what why does it look like when they're making 99 out of 103 tackles in the first half why does it look look like they know exactly what leinster is doing oh it's because they know exactly what leinster is going to do yeah yeah that's yeah noel mcnamara is their attack coach at bordeaux and um like he's done a great job and he was in that irish system and as another guy that maybe didn't get um the chance when he kind of wanted to get it he went off to the sharks to do a little bit of uh coaching with them and picking up a bit of foreign experience and i think he was in with the under Irish under 18s under 19s was in in Leinster for a while and uh and then yeah just one that got away like Jerry Flannery like Felix Jones like Mike Prendergast he's gonna head off from Munster at the end of the season like so that's a bit of you know there's a bit of rumbling about that but yeah you're kind of right they um everybody knows what they do like and that's what stuck Ireland for a while and Andy Farrell had to kind of change it a bit um everybody knows Leinster will go through the phase you know they'll go through the phases they'll have different strike runners keep an eye out for like yeah number two and number three they'll be shaping that they want the ball but they are going to keep the ball and if you kind of yeah it's almost like as you said harry they're wearing themselves out without gaining much from it as well like so um yeah really interesting one to think and that's where maybe they tended towards sam prendergast where like he can give us a little bit of something different but then his game exactly yeah yeah so yeah it's very it's very interesting like where does he come back um you know he's gone through the ringer over here like do you give him the summer off you know don't bring him on any irish tours and um but yeah they're still in that same position they were a year or so ago actually ever since sexton uh you know stepped away which is nearly three years ago now like um they don't have a number a dominant number 10 and a dominant personality which doesn't help i just want to take a step back here i'm not the guy that can talk about every single intricate little l moves and stuff like that that's way above my pay, great leave it to you guys. But one thing I am interested in, I can't just refer to the Bulls in the Storm as the level of detail that they're planning for example. I know the Bulls plan 38 weeks ahead in terms of physical conditioning.

Honestly, I've seen it. It's crazy. So, Bernard Jackman said last week that, or this week that Densler lobbied the URC to move their game to South Africa at the beginning of the season so they have fresh legs here. I mean, so much planning went into this. And when the Glasgow Warriors beat the Bulls at Loftus, a very self-satisfied Franco-Smith sat, and said we could prepare for this starting a year ago so if you plan this far ahead to get your season changed around everything else you knew you were going to play in Bilbao you've do it for a long time it was a surprise we decided last week that was a slip up you can't say it's 28 degrees and we weren't prepared for it nonsense man what do you think of that yeah yeah yes very good yeah um this is i like you coming out swinging here as well um i i heard as well i was talking to a couple of people about that and leinster only arrived over on wednesday as well in Bilbao and And yeah, maybe like it wouldn't make a difference, but just head over as soon as you can into the week and acclimatize a bit more.

Like come over on the Monday, fly out to Sunday night and see kind of, you know, see if that makes a difference as well. They would have known they're coming. At the URC, it's a little bit of strange where like, I think even Leo Cullen mentioned it at the end, you're going from a Champions Cup final to a URC quarterfinal next week. So yeah, you can't really kind of pull everybody over. Like they'd get slated for doing something like that if they put a B team out against Ospreys last week and flew the boys off to Bilbao a week in advance or something.

So if you did that, you'd get killed for it. If you didn't do it and arrive too weak, you'd get killed for it as well. Yeah, it might be a bit strange to kind of like hear, you know, you guys probably used to 28 degrees. That's probably like a cool day for you as well. It's winter.

I'm not wearing a jersey. Yeah, it's probably the worst excuse you've ever heard in your life. Yeah. Well, on the jerseys, Ben Darwin is well noted for his work across all sports, but particularly in rugby, Union on cohesion. He was on a show with me once and he was trying to stump me.

And we went through all these different, you know, correlations and causations. And he said, you know, Harry, what's the one thing that would, you know, throw this all out of whack? And I said, people having to wear a pink jersey suddenly or something. And I was just being silly. And he goes, no, that's exactly right.

So there's a lot of study about little things mattering in top sport, you know, Bjorn Borg having the wrong tension in his racket or something. Anything that can throw you off. So Leinster has to play with this white jersey. And also it's that weird white, yellow, blue combination. I don't know.

It's interesting how stupid that might sound and how important it might actually be if we could prove it. Although I don't know how you'd prove it. did you kind of have that feeling of no we should be in our blues yeah there was well there was one I saw I think Caelan Scully kind of does a Irish reporter was saying I think the Munster had a win in a European final I think they might have been wearing a white jersey or you know a big game that they wore their white change strip in and they've won it so it was a one from one 100% success rate and that's where you were kind of clinging to going in against because you knew it you knew it was going to be tough against Bordeaux as well so uh but yeah something like that yeah could they have done it like were they I suppose what was the argument I wonder behind it was the Bordeaux kind of claret too much of a clash with the Leinster blue I wonder like but uh yeah if you as you as you kind of mentioned like yeah if you're used to kind of patterns and seeing things in the corner of your eye and they're wearing white as well I don't know yeah they might stay away from wearing white uh next time anyway yeah I was actually storyboarding the the match because I thought we're going to have this big post-match instant live reaction is going to be down to the wire you know a kick and you know it was a romp but i i kept when i wrote when i looked at it afterwards i thought okay leinster had a 20 plus phase attack in the red zone and went up 7-0 is there a bit of the the dreaded good start because then the rest of the match they were married to that kind of thing you know uh uh let's see they had a line out five meters scrum five meters 10 phases and then a knock on uh and then an intercept um then then the second half starts and big joe jumps over right to score it's like okay so again the good start from phases then they go back in uh joe but runs into ben ben wins they run there's a penalty in the 22 they stay there until ring rose scores it's like they only scored one way which was to camp down with three entries and that just it wasn't that kind of day like on another day that would have been fine but on this day with them scampering everywhere with their sort of chaotic uh clockwork orange insanity it didn't really matter like that was not enough and i kept thinking it's just too much time during the attack sets in this type of rugby and then i started thinking guys this is the way rugby is going this is what it looked like in the test matches in wellington in paris with the box coming there um new zealand in chicago there's a lot of this just sort of chaos for about 10 12 15 minutes and then the game's gone yeah yeah what was it they there was if you guys said i actually i think we were messaging a little bit during the thing but it was eerily similar to that montpellier ulster game on the the friday night as well where um ulster got off to a fast start as well and and then all of a sudden montpellier just absolutely steamrolled him for the rest of the game and so that's why when leinster scored early there wasn't a big kind of like yeah like it was kind of just like well now now we're waiting for the punch back and we got punched in the mouth and and then yeah keenan was very unlucky but uh yeah billy barry is it's just i i kind of like it's probably an easy thing to compare him to but someone like zidane like zinedine zidane he's played soccer as well he just seems to be functioning at like a faster level to everyone else like he you're like the the kick of heads that looked like it went out on the like uh over the the end line but keenan had got like a fingertip touch to it but the how he had to maneuver his body to take that on his right and then kick it with his left was incredible like as well like so sometimes you're saying they're lucky but they're getting lucky because they're are bringing out this this fantastic skill and they're being brave as well like and uh yeah it's just this kind of like if you looked at some of the kicking strategy that they were doing it's like they wanted to create chaos to kind of break the irish ranks as well like whereas you just can't imagine leinster having that creativity like and like there was a little bit at the end uh it's kind of you know similar in a way to what i'm thinking but when luke was doing his press conference at the end and the bordeaux boys and the mascot broke in and just sprayed beer everywhere at the end that it was madness and i was just thinking leinster the leinster lads wouldn't have the balls and they wouldn't have the craziness to do something like that they they wouldn't they wouldn't crash the press conference and look like have themselves looking foolish as well like they're they're set in their ways and i think even people come in and see them it's like you won't believe how well drilled these lads are but sometimes as you're seeing on the big things it's like you can be well drilled but then you can actually tire yourself out whereas bordeaux are almost conserving their energy and then as you're saying harry like just like saving themselves for 10 12 minutes and just hitting you one two three quick punches like that and they could score two or three tries and you're left there under the post again saying what the hell has just happened like yeah so uh they're using their their kind of energy the right way whereas leinster were were just empty in the tank and then just having an empty tank to show for it at the end yeah i see my bursts you know these these giant bursts but they're but they're prepared for them like everyone's in a channel and they immediately go and scorch they don't even know what's going to happen next but they know they need to go and sprint mode into their channel and something will happen and there's a sort of uh you know it comes true it's almost like they sort of will it they manifest it into existence because it doesn't look like it's on that thing that pano did it didn't even look like it was on at all and then it's it's a it's from a to b it's a straight line the try is scored in a way that if you did a heat map you'd say how did that happen that would never happen and that's exactly what happened then and the speed with which they do it makes the entry stats meaningless entry stats are all about getting into the end you know having an entrance and then having a line out and then having a starter play and then bashing at the line and getting over that's what it measures it's deceiving when you say oh they had four entries and they had four tries i mean that's not what really happened they didn't even go into the end they just they they leapt they they leapfrogged it. They just ran from far away and there was no defense in the 22. Yeah, yeah, it was incredible.

Like even the, yeah, as you kind of said, like there was a great, sometimes you kind of, there's a guy on X as well or Twitter, I think it's like EK Rugby Analysis as well. He's good. He's very good. Yeah, he had a good one as well where they were actually saying that like, if you looked at it, Bordeaux were actually letting Leinster, their wingers win some balls and then absolutely swarming them. when they got it so like you could see a tommy o'brien when where he went up and claimed it and it looked like jesus fair play tommy o'brien like he's won that under pressure but they all held and waited and then the minute he got it there was three men on him like so just as you kind of said they were they were they all knew where they had to be at the right time or they were kind of flooding areas and saying we're going to put a load of pressure on them over here and yeah flood the zone and kind of see what happens and so there was yeah methods to the madness like you know and um and it is that kind of thing where yeah if you look at that what was it it was a wasn't there a block down and then it got kicked and it hit josh van der fleer in the head and then yeah i know decided to chip true and stuff and um you know if if that was soccer like yeah that i was i was messing yesterday saying it was an outrageous shove on jemison gibson park and penno should have you know seen a straight red card not even a 20 minute red card but like uh it was significant enough but like uh yeah the ref was kind of just kind of going like it's it's almost sometimes it's like that's such a good try to like let it run like let's they're living in the chaos as well like so um yeah bordeaux just incredible but yeah it'd be interesting to kind of see where where leinster go from here as well and um you know what what kind of changes they might make and players or personnel or coaching yeah you guys are just dancing around the question there you just said about you know for example they held back on the the wing stuff that's coaching and it comes down to coaching the one thing i was doing their live reaction with harry and you last night and while they were talking and i was just keeping quiet and playing director director i was watching the press conference when they're speaking to leo he was looking like just had the biggest you know biggest most fun holiday of his life was smiling and laughing i mean he took any like any other coach in world rugby and they wouldn't look like that does he you know the question is do you do you change 15 players 23 players 32 international so he kept keep using that stat would you change one man is that one man going to be leo cullen or is it as it looks like i used to would want it to be jock new nova so what's what's what's the answer uh yeah i'll i'll go first right and then harry you can kind of jump in and and uh i can i can see yeah i think that the people that will that the irish view like i'm not speaking for all of ireland but like the general view seems to be people have lost patience with leo cullen and it's like um he's he's probably the the front man he goes out and faces the media more often than not and um and then this season around you kind of clap back kind of like you know what we're doing is incredible we're not getting the credit for it and you're sticking the boot in and so then when you do something like that and then you lose another final you're teed up for kind of if you in a weird way like if you come at the media the media might come back at you then again uh because you haven't backed up your talk it was like kind of taking a victory lap before running the final lap of the actual race you're you're supposed to be running like so um so he's he's getting it a lot of people like even you know friends you talk to casually or other kind of people are just kind of like you talk about them and the shoulders sag and you say yeah has he brought them to the end of where it should be like you know and do they make a big change um yeah like i personally would have like it's just you're some things annoy me like i was kind of saying when we got beaten by la rochelle those couple of times um like leinster weren taking any drop goals it was just playing the same way all the way and i remember talking to Ross Byrne about it and saying would you not just practice a couple of drop goals in game situations to kind of so like even if you're faking for a drop goal, like you don't have to take it.

You could just draw people into you. And, and he was just like, no, we're going to keep winning the way we're winning. And you're just like, well, what's the, like, even the all blacks learned that you have to take drop goals every now and then, like, are you talking about the game that was 15 all forever and ever? And yeah, it was like the, the one where I think they, yeah, they lost the final in 2023 then as well. And, and Ross Byrne didn't kind of drop back and there was, there was a drop goal option on, he didn't take it.

That's when Lennon circle off to that really fast start in 2023. And La Rochelle came back in the second half. And I remember. What are they saying? Are they saying that you only can score a try?

Like it's, it's bad to have a drop goal. Is that what the point? Well, yeah, the whole thing was just like, we don't need them. Like we're going to go out and just like heavily beat teams. Cause that's what we do.

Like, and, and, and, and then they kind of like, yeah, a year like a year down the line frawley decided to step up and at least he kind of had the stones to kind of say i'm going to try and take a drop goal against to lose but then he had missed because he never had one in his career like before like and you're kind of going well maybe if you practice that in a game scenario it's a handy kind of tool to have like you know just like george ford kind of pulls it out for england when england it seems to be every time they play argentina he just be like drop goal drop goal drop goal and but yeah why not have that weapon in your bag as well and And the other thing that annoyed me used to be, yeah, I was just kind of like, Munster have it, like road warriors, like kind of go on the road and we'll bring our best squad and we'll go and kind of like, we'll get battle hardened along the way. And I don't think Leinster did that an awful lot. I said that a couple of years ago. Like, why don't we head down to kind of play our two games in South Africa and just talk smack about the South African sides and just bring our best, you know, team and just say, like, we're going to go over there and we're going to absolutely physically dominate them and we're going to like get in their faces and we're going to win and they might not win both of those games but like actually throw the gauntlet down to somebody and show that you can kind of um you know you can you can be rough when you can kind of you can you can dig deep when you have to as well so but they just keep seeing to do the same things and the same things and if you listen to leo cullen after the game he said like uh we weren't a million miles away and i was like we maybe not a million but you were 978 000 miles away like you know whereas you had an old McNamara coming out and saying um you know Rory McIlroy said winning one is good but if you want to be great you have to win two or you have to go back to back and all this motivational thing and it's like two yeah and like Leo Cullen's coming out and it's like ah sure you know I'm proud of the lads and and Caelan Doris came out and kind of similar things said like you know we have the right people in the right places we're confident we're going to come and do it again and you're just kind of it's the same kind of thing that Irish teams get beaten with all the time it's like you know anyone from another country will say how can you not get beyond the quarterfinal in a world cup there's only 10 good teams and like you know like how can you not get to the final four and it's the same thing with leinster now they're able to beat certain teams but then when it comes to the crunch against the really top sides they they seem to crumble as well like so yeah leo cullen the big thing is um do does he just step away and does he kind of say okay i think it's time for change does will he be allowed kind of go back and say okay i'm gonna make a change just just someone like tyler blayendahl step away or i need a bit more help in here on attack uh give me one more season i'd say nina but it's not like he's on outrageous you know money he'd be on a good pay as well but like can they afford to say to nina amber and cullen on your way and like pay their pay them out for a year and then get somebody else in which makes me suspect that like they'll both be kept on for one last season and i've already seen people talking about it there in ireland today like a last dance scenario but it's like the last dance was the chicago bulls like you know like they were trying to win six out of seven years like we're trying to you know win a first final and you know it'd be nine next season as well so it's not exactly last dance material like last hope last dregs i don't know what you want to call it like but and if it was me i would have move Cullen on a year ago and if I was given the choice which I haven't been of course but I'd move him on again just to make some change but I suspect himself and Ian Arbor are going to stick around for a year I don't know what you think about it Harry yeah so I think they can find the money using the Urfu special pen which Munster, Kornacht and Ulster have always accused Ledster of having benefit of so they just use that special pen somehow and there's some money floated from here to there um so i'll say the reason why they should keep leo and then i'll say the reason they shouldn't keep leo they should keep leo because the irk is a uh is a handicap it's not as good as a top 14 so it just doesn't let's just doesn't get enough proper competition there's only three or four really good teams and even those are not nearly on the same level of internationals the bulls have a lot of internationals stormers have a few and glasgow has a few sharks have a lot actually but but it's not week in week out like top 14. So I think the top 14 teams are just more battle hardened.

Second is, you know, who's the replacement? You should never just throw it out unless, you know, they're still getting into the finals, I guess. So keep Leo for that reason. Keep Leo because he's a nice guy. Okay, why get rid of Leo?

He always seems to have to take, he needs too much evidence before he makes changes. He's way too late on the stuff. He does the obvious thing. He jacks around with, you know, Sam, and then it even messes up on the irelish level for some reason um andy seems to pick people like frolley to kick a drop goal in durban um you know before leo will um he puts people in different places the problem with leo is there's an exact comparison here andy farrell it's the same team but with bundy aki and ty burn and can be number one in the world um so it's just unavailing and ridiculous for leo to say that the media is putting the boot in um yeah i suppose but you know at the highest level he's been able to show that he's a great defensive coach so you go back to leo go maybe you aren't picking daringly enough maybe you are too stuck in your ways but more importantly you just don't seem like a guy who would make me want to run through a wall for you and andy farrell does nina does just watch chasing the sun um i don't know what's leo's pitch you know i know it doesn't always come down to that but in finals it does in finals it does that's when it starts that's when you really have to have someone bleed for me die for me remember i picked you back when no one else did let's fight somebody you know let's go and i just feel like when i watch the poor dough they were ready to beat someone else's family up to win but can i ask you this question now this is a bit of a left field one and uh as harry was speaking you know the light went on in my head and i'm going to be accused of that being you know some weird other thing but let's leave it there what about color moving on and nina moving up i mean he won the world cup we won two of them one of them as head coach just the other day the the thing thing about that would just be i suspect neil amber's just got a year left in him like i like i think he'll he will head back um you know to to south africa and after that um so yeah it'd be he'd be an interesting one as well like i think and then he kind of enjoys the kind of coaching side of things as well like i think the attack like i think harry's kind of right it's it's it is the thing like yeah where he gets the blame for like it's the blitz defense blitz defense it's like all the focus is on that but then you need a strong enough personality as well like so when you're kind of looking at it yeah like tyler blayendahl like what is his i know like yeah like what's what's leinster look like when tyler blayendahl is is the the attack coach as well like have they have they made any massive improvements or how many tries have they scored in the last like year or two where you went jesus like you know like bordeaux seemed to score one of them toulouse scored them you know even northampton scored them like every every second week or every twice a game as well like so um is he the sacrificial lamb you kind of wonder as well or did it bring somebody in new um yeah with nina he's he's funny because cullen's almost like i think i mentioned it there before he's the front man he's the guy who has to go out and sell it whereas nina sometimes just does like once every three or four weeks you'll do a press conference he he kind of like he doesn't have to kind of do an awful lot but yeah a couple of things that kind of crossed my mind were um yeah like i i can't see things just staying as the way they are maybe some back room changes uh maybe to try and get someone like johnny sexton in and or something like that or maybe he gets a bit more responsibility with them in the attacking sense or something like that maybe sexton comes in next season but the big one for me is i was i wonder if either one of two things does stewart lancaster come back and do what you mentioned there uh envy where he kind of he gets the the keys to the city and says lancaster you're coming back in uh he's a guy who kind of makes you run through a brick wall like so does Lancaster come back in and you're the top dog now you call the shots um or is the other one is does Andy Farrell take over then uh in 2027 after the World Cup as well so um and does Farrell is that is that a real thing I've never heard anyone say that before it's a Farrell would stay in Dublin yeah yeah well just like there was talk about the whole like there was a worry that he was going to go back to Saracens for a while as well but see the thing is I'm pretty sure like it hasn't been said out there but like Andy Farrell's been offered like the the lions job for the next go around like you know down to new zealand he's got that he's if he wants it so what type of job is he going to take on where he has to disappear for like nine months again to be a lions coach as well so you know could he if he did that at leinster after world cup he'd be there for like a season two seasons maybe and then he'd kind of have to go off and do the lines like so it's possible uh he loves living in dublin like he's very settled like his kids are kind of playing over here as well and um or his young lad is kind of playing over here as well so um like lives in dublin four you know the kind of hope of all things leinster as well he would be such a smart choice to make you know like if he wanted to uh if he wanted a challenge like that um so he'd be a good one um and then the other one is the o'gara one the ronan o'gara one as well like does he come back in does he eventually get like four years at Leinster because they've got a bigger budget, they've got better players and then does he take over from Farrell after his next four-year cycle or does he even That's my favourite. My favourite one is Rona Gara comes in and he has to have Johnny Sexton as the kicking coach and they're like pal, roommates Yeah, so there are definitely options there as well or yeah again, the big shame there, everybody's loving Noel McNamara but I think he signed a new contract with Bordeaux as well so you can coax him back uh i have even seen people talking about you know jerry flannery and felix jones as well like do we get them back somehow and like felix being from even though he played for munster is a kind of from dublin then as well like so um do you kind of tempt them back as well so there's there's options uh but yeah the big thing is like leo cullen is known as one of the nicest guys out there in the rugby circuit absolutely you heard we're gentlemen all the time as well but you know as you kind of said, Harry, as well, is he going to make you want to, you know, beat up somebody else's family to kind of do something?

Is he, has he got this kind of manic kind of, you know, we've, we've, you know, dug deep together, we have to go down deeper again, like, you know, and looking straight in the eyes and kind of saying, you know, let's win this together, like, and, you know, I'll run through a wall for you, will you run through a wall for me? Like, I don't think he has that. But yeah, it'd be very interesting to see if he gets a stay of execution, like I think I mentioned like I'd love if Leinster won the league you know another URC from him and then he kind of bows out that way as well but um but yeah like maybe maybe throwing it out there for the first time but it's not that outrageous to think to someone like if Leinster wanted to get the best of the best why not go for Andy Farrell who's kind of living in the country in the first place I don't want to ask you something we put a lot of stock in what we see on TV what's going on in the coaching box we picked up the the trouble in Bulls land long before it actually came to the floor. Jake was sitting way over there drinking 17 bottles of water during any given match. And his team was over here.

Then Johan came in, Johan Akerman, and it was still a bit of an atmosphere. When Johan got his own coaches in, completely different. Completely different. We see from the outside, Jock Ninobe sitting as far away from Leo Cullen as he possibly can. Way over there.

Is that just a happenstance? We heard rumours about that final against the Bulls at Leinster. There was a huge shouting match. By the end, the roof went off between Ninobe and Cullen. I mean, I'm asking the question are the coaches putting in the same direction you are that do they have the same vision you know it's no use teaching defense this way and this doesn't add up at the end of the day i've been saying it about the bulls a lot because i've seen them it's a big puzzle lots of little pieces and they all have to fit together and until the big pieces are not fitting together there's your problem yeah like and it's like even what i suppose a lot of people kind of might even forget is that like nina was a swing for defenses by lancaster as well because you know lancaster was there and and Lancaster, it was that thing of like, we're going to, you know, we're going to go for it.

We're going to attack you. We're going to be coming from all angles of the park. We're going to just going to we're going to score more points than you to win the game. And then they couldn't kind of grid it out against the kind of big French sides. And then they said, as Harry mentioned, like, we've got to get some some dog in us here.

Let's kind of pay a lot of money. Let's get Nina, you know, back from South Africa as well. And so, yeah, he could have even been foisted upon Leo Cullen. like you know it's just like if you want to keep your job this guy's kind of come in and he's going to work with you and you give him what he wants um and we'll make the silence that he wants like you know maybe someone like snyman coming in as well there's kind of like a a nina everything as well maybe like slumani coming in like they're not very leo cullen moves like you know um could they have all been kind of like with this is what nina ever wants we have to give him what he wants as well like so yeah there could be pulling pulling that in like direction and yeah there are like it's it is the funny thing as you said if you judge the body language like yeah how close are they sitting to each other uh are they saying much to each other as the game is going on as well um like i even thought it was interesting seeing the the ulster game in the challenge cup final like rory best who's like you know the chief executive up at ulster sitting beside richie murphy you're like what what are you doing here like that's not your your brief like you know but uh you can kind of see the influence that he has there as well but uh yeah there it is maybe an interesting one to watch like yeah how much you know how close are they really maybe i'll be watching it even closer now as you say over these uh you know starting with the lions game at the weekends uh see if they are pulling in the right direction but easily it's a good point he very easily could have been cullen you've got you've gone a certain way we're going to bring this guy in you know give him what he wants and then cullen has to kind of go out and kind of put the smile on and say you know um yeah we're everything's great like you know but then he's going back and saying what the like you know what's going on so uh yeah very interesting watch i haven't heard any kind of things of like yeah there might have been the odd blow up like i haven't heard anything about like a fractious relationship or anything like that but yeah i'll be watching it more closely now over the next couple of weeks yeah i don't know jock's actually a very duty-bound um sort of obedient soldier type guy i mean he's obviously a very passionate guy i don't see him as ever being outright defined in any system in via that he would be in um but like to your point it could be chilly and and sort of cold and i could see that happening you know where you're not getting the best ideas uh bordeaux looks like a laboratory of really crazy good ideas um i think i even heard that mcnamara guy is that his name mcnamara yeah yeah i think i even heard him in interviewed on some other intro show and and he was saying that sometimes he screaming for lbb not to do what what he doing It like no no no no oh yeah yeah yeah so it i wouldn necessarily put it down to his genius there some player geniuses out there there's some you know like cheslin colby uh who's coming to the stormers um he can do things sometimes i think against new zealand he kind of got in the wrong position on the on the blitz defense and then he kind of dummied what he was going to do and then intercepted and running in you know it's like there's just instinctual greatness and i think when you're looking at louis blb i see more of that than i do at the point sorry but it's i feel like he is more of a absolute game changer type player uh and also so young so it's annoying because he'll be here for a long time and pano i like you know he and i always joke about him i don't think he knows any of the rules laws of rugby i don't know he could never be a coach but it just ends up making beautiful messes and then you go oh wow look at that you know and uh probably annoying player to play with some probably but the whole thing just it fits together so um there's one thing I'm thinking about here is maybe Bordeaux just better okay so we can go around and around the room but what if they're just a cut above better and Leinster is an irk winning team it's a the the level at which it needs to sort of grade itself is it should never not win the irk you know that's just the bottom line you know to put more pressure on you but um if that's the case and it's almost this delusion that they're supposed to be a five-star always winning the european thing how do you think this plays out with the quarterfinal is that such a huge letdown and hungover or can they rally around and say okay now we need to hurt somebody coming come on you know we're embarrassed let's go out and prove something yeah and it's i suppose it helps then again at least they start off at home like the um that lions game like you know it was much closer than the score line suggested in in the regular season like only a few weeks ago so lions will be kind of going there you know like fancy not fancy no chances but like thinking we can kind of give these guys a good a good rattle and you kind of look at who leinster have and you're like what changes can they make to kind of um like again you'll probably have seven or eight of the guys who started again maybe even nine uh like does james lowe come back in interesting talk that he might be leaving uh leinster at the end of the season which is mad considering like you're you're a year out from a world cup um talk that he might be going over to the the english prem like as well but uh yeah he could come back in osborne could start um jimmy o'brien could come back in like just freshen things up a little bit but uh yeah they really have to go because um oh my god like yeah like it's it's basically it's it's completely win or bust like all the kind of talk we're having about now where people have this fatigue around leo cullen and they're kind of even annoyed with the team themselves like you know the players themselves are kind of saying it's it's great that we're getting back here and we keep getting back here and everyone's like yeah that's great for you but like like you just fucking win a game like you know like uh if they lose against the lions he's done no like this no way if he if he loses a home quarter final then leo can just say goodbye yeah i even think if if he doesn't win the urc like yeah if he doesn't win the league like yeah it's because again if they got to another final and then were to lose that even if they had to go to south africa and then lose lose down there as well it would be um people would yeah it's just it's they've already kind of it feels like they're up they kind of hear like up to their neck would kind of um this team that are so well resourced and they're able to go off and you know pick up slumani and you know barrett last year wani they have brought sniman in as well and they've the kind of the pick of you know bringing in like a world cup winning coach and they can't do it like it's the patience is kind of running out and to one one you know league title in the last kind of four years wouldn't be enough as well like so they have to go and win the whole thing and uh and even if they win the whole thing people will still kind of go into the summer a little bit upset how it's all happened so that's the type of pressure lends to are under like yeah you kind of mentioned that they're probably they should always be the best team you know in the arc you know and um you know that's that's the standard for them and then they have to go in and push it several levels beyond that to win a champions cup okay let me ask you this question um glasgow lost to against toulon average team in ito 14 at the moment uh storm was lost to them um you know montpellier is doing well they won last night but they're number two ub is fourth or sixth somewhere in the battle more or less not even the best team in the in the top 14 at the moment they had to struggle they were blown away i mean what does it say about the usc as a competition compared to the to these you know to the top 14 that seems to be a bit of a juggernaut yeah the top 14 is um like even i remember i think it was was again talking before like uh i think leinster played larachelle a few years ago like and ogara was kind of mentioning it after semi-finals like uh you know leinster now can rest everybody because they're playing scarlet and then they're playing you know maybe lions a couple years ago when lines weren't any you know where they were you know bottoming out or playing zebra or so i think it was there's a zebra game coming up and he goes we have to go we have to make the playoffs we have to go away to pow and then we have to go you know hit the road up to um you know start francais or something like that and um there's no days off for us there's no weekends off and um you can kind of see the like the the amount of games played for all those teams like even i was looking at billy vanapola he's played you know so many games for kind of montpellier this year he's up in the high 20s as well like so it's punishing but then does that punishment kind of come and battle hard in you as well when you need it uh as well so yeah it is what does it say for the uric because i think the last five um champions cups have been won by french sides as well and um and before that the only team to really kind of you know really threaten that was saracens as well and then we all know saracens were um uh what can i say kind of how can i say this like they were being creative with their books as well like you know and uh and then the only other team to kind of challenge it is leinster but then leinster are turning out to be yeah the buffalo bills getting to finals and kind of uh being the other side on on the end of these things so yeah they it's it's it's a worrying trend i i would say like yeah because as you mentioned just some of the other top sides in the the urc were getting bounced by mid-level teams in france as well so and look what like ulster now ulster they can't even claim to be a top side but like they finished ninth but uh you know they had so many players who did well in the ireland setup this year and there's so much positivity around them and you know montpellier put a record score in them as well and probably took the foot off the gas for the last 20 minutes too i think i want to just lob this i had grenade to you because you're in touch with the index oracle um i know you put out a new one but any upsets i mean any any changes in the pecking order from what you've seen i mean you've always had this idea we've had this idea i don't know what the oracle thinks but sort of you know this is a but you know suddenly things for me to me looks a little bit different yeah the the index is a wonderful instrument and surpasses all human understanding in some ways because it's both predictive and reactive and so it's never wrong it cannot be proven or disproven like religion it's great so um no i think there are fluxes and flexes and i think you know the top 14 is ominous and so sometimes because of results affecting teams a b and c it brings an entire league up or brings an entire league down okay so it looks like super rugby is uh cannibalizing itself so much that there's really only one team out of that league that can matter and then it looks like the that i down that the index insufficiently weighted top 14. but it reflects that so now it you know so stade francais uh montpellier has been in harry index for a long time now and and people have always made fun of that like what's montpellier what are they doing you know like they're a power team that's got a plus whatever 200 in the top 14.

so yeah they're there um i think the prem and the urc are very similar right now and that there's this four four four teams that are like season long good and then there's see there's teams in there that can do really well for a minute monster um you know cardiff they can rear up but they're not really a campaign team it's just the four that are gonna you know probably end up in the semi-finals and the premise the same the saints bath saracens and tigers they're made they're made for a campaign geez look at the rosters in top 14. they take to take too long i would just look at the actual team sheet and and they're amazing that's an amazing team that's got that's got talent from all over the world you know yes bordeaux has waki jalibert lucu du portier morfana bill berry pinot and uh poro but they've got about 12 14 proper good players i mean ben tamifuna adam coleman uh rayasi how good was rayasi i mean there's just people that are just brilliant so what if what if the bulls what if the stormers could have everyone who was in the school in the western cape back home damon del lende all these guys back you know uh and and then we could also add jordy barrett and i don't know whatever charles olivon or like it's amazing when you start to add five or six uh guys if you had you know pablo matera and And playing at Cape Town. I mean, like unbelievably hard to beat. So money talks, just like in politician elections, it's not every time will the wealthier candidate win, but most of the time they do. So I think when it comes to Champions Cup, that's just the way it's going to be for the foreseeable future because they're adding money in France.

Their TV deal gets better every year. I was just going to say there, you guys have probably discussed it as well, but yeah talk about the strength to do the the urc like that like i think everybody like most people here are delighted to see like the south african teams have made it such a more competitive league as well like and but yeah the idea that the south african sides might be kind of on the fence or like even might not be doing champions cup anymore like as well like good what would you have you guys discussed that much what do you guys think about that no not gonna happen what i think is going to happen they say they're holding a gun that's a metaphorical gun sorry guys to sansa's head to move the rugby championship i think that's what it's about they won't move it edgar afbans he of the bulls told us they make more money from a rounds of 16 game against to lose than a sold out derby game at loftus against the stormers by far because of the exchange rate they'll never pull out of the champions cup i don't think so and and pat it's also recruitment so you know stormer's talking to me about how to get players come back they're not going to land colby and then tell colby or the bulls tell hondre oh and by the way you're not going to play in the big boys cup you know no yeah this is like a glorified you know curry cup then they want to be in the places where all the players love this stuff i mean this is when the players look at it and every every player in the world was watching champions cup final everyone everyone from new zealand everyone watching it and thinking jeez look at the the spectacle of it you know just the filming of it the i mean i know it didn't live up to its you know but most the time it does okay yeah well yeah definitely definitely stick around definitely stick around because uh i do think they're kind of they're one of these years i think it just is going to take one south african side just to go on a bit of a run and even get lucky in a game and kind of go deep in competition and then then they'll be in over the wall that's why i kind of said before i wanted lancer to win as many as they could before the south african side started kind of gobbling them all up that's all it is that's all it is pat it's it's winning it's getting in the long run uh obviously the bulls to me shape as a really drug as a you know two-pack juggernaut for the next year stormers now with sia coming colby coming vulco lowe coming you know i'm feeling better about the ability to go farther um the sharks always have a roster so it's just a matter of getting it together yeah i i just think it has to happen you know one or two teams get get into the semis and suddenly everyone's into it I can tell you that I spoke to you on Akraman, for example, and I was surprised by how serious they take the Champions Cup. I thought they were going to sort of, like Drake used to do, Northampton, send the C team or D team, whatever, just get it. They want to get there. The Bulls, definitely, I can't speak for the Stormers, but I can tell you from first-hand experience that they want this.

They would go for it. It's an opportunity to go for it. I don't think there's any chance of pulling it out. I think we must wrap this up. We've taken a lot of time.

It's getting dark there by Pat. no i'm just gonna be putting back in with nine hours i felt that i felt your mood improved just talking it through again it's catharsis therapy we're here for you man oh yeah yeah it's um my big thing that i kind of haven't even banged the table with this is i was just kind of saying i want this next general because like there was i think charlie morgan who you guys kind of know know well as well he did a great piece with dan levy um there he kind of had this amazing year where you kind of won everything and was one of the best players in the year and then had to retire early like but i was looking back and it was like that was the last like dan levy and james ryan came in at the same time and they're these two young cocky you know you know shits you know like but they'd go up and they'd rough people up and they'd go and they'd have a bit of strut about them i was thinking who's the last kind of young leinster forward that's come in and just kind of grabbed the jersey off somebody like it's probably dan sheehan and even that was like five or six years ago like who the younger guys are coming in it's that weird thing again maybe why nina was brought in are they too nice are they kind of like um you know what's what's their kind of difference like yeah what are they going to bring as well so um such a great point because dan's really good but he's not he's not a rough guy yeah yeah yeah so yeah again yeah do we do we go like if we ever make a foreign recruit are we going to get some off the wall kind of headbanger to kind of come in and you know make a blood sacrifice yeah the adam coleman type guy yeah it's true it's unbelievable what that lift that gives you if your biggest guys in your team are also the meanest that's always the best yeah yeah but yeah i do feel a bit better i do feel a bit better like so um so we'll see hopefully in a few weeks we're not talking about another last final or semi-final again like but um yeah i hope we are i hope we are because it might be you two guys against each other just in two weeks time if you manage to squeak by it past the lions you never know what i mean and yeah and they just might you know upset cardiff i don't know maybe maybe they can do it anyway pat it's been fun thank you so much i enjoyed that i wanted to come out fighting for for jock and for jock ninabe you know i'm a fan so i didn't not take kindly to all this get rid of ninabe we'll win everything that moves anyway thanks pat appreciate it yeah cheers guys Thank you. Thank you.

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