Inside the Bulls' Hunt for SA's Next Springboks | Niëll Jacobs - Bulls High Performance Manager

I think I've been privileged enough in my career so far, my talent ID path, to have seen boys, well they were boys then, that had become Springboks. You know, you get a guy like Jaden Hendricks, who you saw as a 16 year old and you just suddenly knew this guy was going to be a Springbok. You look at a guy like Cameron Hannekom who played for Charlie Hofmeyer before he went to Paddle Boys High, you know, you just, you could have seen this guy was just a machine. Superstars at school get robbed for the first time or don't make a team and then how do they deal with it? Some of them don't deal with it.

Now why didn't you, I wanted to ask you this question. Why did you not offer Wilke Lowe the entire Limpoppa province to make him stay? How did you know we didn't do that? A good agent always talks you into a deal and a bad agent always prices you out of a deal. For a boy that's coming to the Bulls, you know, that should be a special thing.

And if you think, well, if the Bulls think that you are good enough, then, you know, the expectation is there for you to become a springer. This is The Long Way to the Game, only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to The Long Way to the Game, our fan-centric podcast with our friend Paul Avanon. Today we've got a special guest, Neil Jacobs, the Head of High Performance Manager. Sorry, I'm not Head of Anything.

High Performance Manager of the Bulls. And actually made sure about that. Welcome, Neil. Thank you, Envia. Thank you for having me, Paul.

It's a massive privilege and I'm looking forward to our chat. Hey, Neil. I'm really excited to talk to you today. Envia is slowly making me fall in love with the Bulls as a Stormers fan. I wanted to start just, could you give us a little bit of background of just what you did before you had this job?

I think you're in this job fairly recently. And then secondly, just what is the scope of the job? Yeah, Paul, so basically I've been in rugby my whole life. So I played after school. I played 10 years a bit professional.

I was at the Shimla's and the Cheetahs three years after school. Then we went to Pika and the Leopards, and then I finished up in the border region, and then I started coaching in the border region at Stirling High School. Then I moved from Stirling High School to Glenwood High School as a coach, and then from Glenwood I moved to AFIS Afrikaans Versiën School here across the road from 2020 until recently last year, December I finished up and I started my job at the Bulls my role at the Bulls is a performance manager it's just a fancy title that says I'm involved with the contracting, the talent identification and a bit of the English call it a pathway program for the players coming through the system so that's basically what I do It's in conjunction with the coaches. So I sit every day and I chat to the coaches. How does this player look?

Who do we bring in? All that stuff. So, yeah, it's quite exciting. I'm enjoying it. And yeah, so far it's going well.

Well, thank you. I have two follow-up questions. So one is, so your job starts all the way with like recruiting under 16 prospects, if I'm correct. Like for the bull all the way to the contracting of the senior players. Yes, so we start identifying, I feel, the best ages end of under 15, under 16.

Then we try and get to know the talents of that age group. And then obviously as they progress through to their grade 11 year, do they play first team, do they play third team, and they go through their matric year, and then we make a decision if we want to contract a certain type of player coming out of school. obviously that depends on what needs we have at under 20 level uh with the competitions changing every season it does make it a bit difficult um you know how you're going to contract out of school how many um but for now it's still under 20 competitions so yeah so that's our process out of school and then when they get obviously to the bulls under 19 20 21 that's basically your development years um and then we make a call on if you can go forward with uh with your senior contract i started to check something with you something that i noticed at the bulls and i've spoken about this before is the fact that this is a huge puzzle and all the little pieces together make the big picture and i'm interested to see because your role sort of spans across it all you know junior levels like you said on the 20s and 23s urc curry cup and everything you have to work with the coaches do they give you a brief and say listen i'm looking for a guy who can go 0 205 seconds flat and you know can scrum at the same time and and the likes do you give Do they give you a wish list and then you go look for players? Or do you keep an eye on players in general and then see, you know, whether they sort of fit in generally? You know what I'm saying?

Is it a custom decision or is it more of a, you know, a general approach? It's definitely both. So obviously I can't do my job without the coaches. And then obviously the coaches trust me to go to them with certain talent that we've identified that we feel can strengthen the squad or can strengthen the juniors or whatever. So it's every day, it's a communication thing between us and the coaches.

It's not me alone that says, okay, now we're going to sign this guy. You sit and you tell the coaches, listen, we have this guy, maybe he's in a window period of his contracting, so we can make an offer. And then we decide together if we want to bring him in or not. Before I dig into a little bit more, because I really want to kind of understand that more. Could I just ask, how do you get a job like yours?

Were you scouted yourself? Someone reached out to you at office and said, hey, we have you in mind for this job, or is it something you applied to online? Paul, I've been in talent identification basically my whole coaching career. So my mentor in the talent identification space is a guy called Nico Servonting. He was involved with the SRHB EPD system, and when he started it in 2015, he asked me and my brother and a whole lot of guys just to get involved with scouting the best under-16s, the best under-17s, just for that program.

So it wasn't solely me that scouted the players, but there I learned a lot about, you know, talent identification. A guy like Jaden Hendricks, how was he under-16? How did he pan out? Just for an example. So, you know, basically when Johan came back from Japan, He got the S-120 job and he came back from his first camp and he reached out to me and my brother regarding the S-120 group which we knew from the H groups and We had a chat about what we thought he should do regarding that group in selection and stuff and I just guess our Relationship grew and I think Johan's trust in me with Talent or my eye for talent just grew there and then obviously when he got the job um human edgar felt there was a gap in the recruitment space at the bulls because i feel it's too much for a coach to do coaching and recruitment so they reached out to me and they asked me if i'm quite keen to leave the coaching and just do the recruiting which was a tough decision for me but at the end of the day i decided to take up the post and yeah i haven't looked back since just a quick thing and neil you talk about your brother just tell us about your brother quickly basically everything i said about me he's been with me uh with my on my coaching journey um he's a head of rugby at office and you know he's a coach and we were privileged enough to coach the bulls on the 19th side last year together with vessel that won the under 19 cup so yeah he's still at school and uh yeah he's head of rugby there yeah and you said twin brother he's my twin brother yeah yeah i've i stopped next to you and i thought it was you and it wasn't you it with him but you've got a beard now i don't think you have to be at the moment just so people get a bit of context there people could you talk a little bit in terms of when you're scouting a player what you look for my assumption is you're looking at kind of their rugby skills and that but i've always understood from coaches that i've talked to is they look a lot at things that parents don't often think about like non-rugby things what they're doing on the bench other things.

Could you talk about when you assess a young, exciting prospect, what do you look at to figure out if there's someone that you will have more interest in? Yeah, obviously on the rugby side, you look at his primary objective. So obviously that changes with position, you know, what's his primary role within a team with the prop and scrum, can he lift, can a hooker throw in, you know, stuff like that. So that's obviously, I think, all over that's basically the same can he do that does it does it fit into what we want at the bulls um you know that changes obviously every union and then you get your contacts where obviously you try and get to know the character of the boy you get to know the work ethic of the boy how does he deal with this appointment how is he in the classroom so how we do that is we just reach out to coaches at the school if it's a school boy and then we just basically do our due diligence with the players we want to sign. Obviously with me coming out of the school market, which was quite, I won't say easy, but I'm quite comfortable with the boys that we've contracted for next year.

I've seen them grow up since under 14, so that was quite easy for us. Is there a, in terms of the involvement of these young school players, at what ages are you starting to see that you have to deal with a with agents rather than parents when you have your initial interest in them how does that early process work when you are interested uh so it's getting for the school boys is getting more you know more earlier so under 15 under 16 the agents already involved and then um you know when they get 18 then they are legally you know, with the agent, but you get to deal with them from, let's say, under 16 onwards, so the boys are younger and younger, and the agents are more and more, but it's part of the game, I understand that, but you also want to develop a relationship with the boy's parent, it's not only the agent, because obviously there's a human side to everything as well, and then obviously if we want to bring a boy in, we want to make him feel part the Bulls family. So it's not just always with the HN, it's with the families that you speak as well. And can I ask you that in the modern era, how much of recruiting and scouting specifically is still like in the old days where you have to go and sit in the pavilion and watch their games versus you're watching their tapes available of the games and you're just scouting them on tape? yeah i try and do both so obviously i watch a lot of of uh tape of the boys i think that that never lies and then obviously you try and get to the field as much as possible just for for people to see you and that you get to see other stuff that you don't see on the tv obviously how the boy acts at warm-up you know does he agree does he have manners just small stuff like that you know how does his parents act and stuff like that so all the small stuff when you go to the field you know you take into account sometimes um so yeah you must do both you can't just uh go to the field and not watch tape you have to watch tape and you have to go to the field so so yeah we do both there's something important that you mentioned now the character and also the the personality and you know the manners almost call it that it also said that you guys firstly look at whether the person fits into the bulls culture before you look at his rugby skills is that a correct assessment uh yes that's where that's where we very aligned So obviously character is very important for us.

I think the Loftus is a special place. Coming to the Bulls is very daunting in the sense that you have to compete every day to make sure you get on the field. Even if you don't get on the field and you sit with disappointment, can you go through the disappointment and still compete? So that is for us actually number one before we get to the primary roles and the secondary roles of the rugby player. All right, so that's the rugby side of it.

But in terms of the personality, what would you be looking for? Because we know very talented players can be very disruptive, especially if they get very successful at a very young age. What do you specifically look for? Yeah, it's always a difficult way to scout because you don't have data on personalities. It's a grey area.

But obviously you look for leaders within the school space, you know, guys that carry themselves well. Sometimes when you go to a match and you see the team isn't doing well the school team you know who's the guy that speaks behind the polls how is he speaking to his team you know when the going gets tough you know does he want the ball is he doing the extra hard yards and stuff like that so so that is basically you know on the rugby side on the field something you can take across to maybe your personality and then like i said you you go into the school coaches and you ask the teachers um you know how's the boy in class what type of character is he outside of rugby and stuff like that. So it's an ongoing process and at the end of the day, that's everything that weighs up into if you want to contract a guy or not. How many times in the last 18 months or in your career have you had an experience where you're sitting in the stand or looking at tape and you see something that genuinely excites you, where you see like, oh, this is the next Andre Pollard, next Nas Buita, and I don't think anyone else has seen that? Oh, that's a great question, Paul.

I think I've been privileged enough in my career so far, my talent ID path, to have seen boys, well, they were boys then, that have become Springboks, which is, yeah, I always get emotional. You know you get a guy like Jaden Hendricks who you saw as a 16 and you just suddenly knew this guy was going to be a Springbok You look at a guy like Cameron Hanekom who played for Charlie Hofmeyer before he went to Paddle Boys High. You know, you could have seen this guy was just a machine. A guy like Matt Rameau was at Artie Estros Day who's playing for the Sharks now. I mean, he was an absolute acester at school, was under the radar.

But a fantastic player. I remember seeing Kanan Moody when he was at his John de Villiers, I think it was 2018, in Deramaker, Western Province, Grand Como Saad, and we selected him for the EPD group that year, and what he's become now is just fantastic. So there's a lot of success stories. I can keep you here for the whole night about boys that we just saw and we just felt, listen, this guy is going to make it, and we're lucky enough to see their road to success. so there's a lot of stories of that yeah so before we go back to paul just explain to me what epd means please uh it's the sr rugby's elite player development program so uh sr rugby tries and identifies boys from uh end of under 15 right through to under 18.

and what does that mean so what do they get to they get special uh coaching or what what is it so so they've got a so epd so they basically they identify the best under 16s and then there's a camp at the end of the year in October holidays where the best under-16s get together for a week camp where they get assessed on their fundamentals, they get assessed on their conditioning testing, and then SRRugby fast tracks them into SS schools and SS under-18 programs. So we track them then from grade 11, grade 12, and then hopefully they make SS schools. And from SS schools, hopefully they get to SS under-20. I was smiling while you were talking because you said I could go on the whole night and honestly I would sit and listen to you the whole night. You said you know I was getting angry at last because I get goosebumps all the time.

I was getting goosebumps while you were talking and the names you were lifting and just imagining how cool that must be to see not just genuine talent on the horizon but then later see them kind of rise through the ranks and kind of live up to their potential. Yeah it's a massive privilege Paul to be trusted with that Obviously, there's a whole host of us in the school system or network that tries and identifies players. But just to see that rise of the guys and some of them playing Springbok now, it's a privilege. Can I ask you, so when that happens and you go back to the coaches, how often is it where you have to convince them? Like you're doing a selling job, but they're not buying?

or is it normally when you come with that kind of fine that people are all ears and they're just ready to go? I hope I get to a point one day where I tell the coach, listen, this guy and he just buys in. But it is a selling game at the end of the day. The position I am in now, I'm not the coach. So I'm trying and advising the coaches to pick who we need to sign.

And obviously, from their side, it's their jobs on the line sometimes and their name is the head coach so they have to trust me in a way as well and hopefully one day i get to a point where they know that jesus if this guy's here then he knows what he's talking about but it is as you say it is a selling job and sometimes the coaches see something different look i don't know everything so sometimes you take advice from the coaches at the end of the day they are the coach of the team and you try and advise them as best as as you can so like i said I just think we need to get to a point where we are aligned when it comes to a talent identification space between let's say the talent identifier and the coach and I must say my career that's always been the case so yeah I'm lucky hopefully I get to a point one day where if I say something then a coach just says yeah fantastic but like I said no one knows everything in rugby. Can you remember an instance when you had a talent like that but where you really had to fight hard where it was people were not buying what you're selling but in the end it turned out to be the right thing and you could at least in your head say i told you so is there any cases like that yeah there's been yeah there's been a few um uh we we're out yeah i just don't want to name names but yeah just uh you know there's always instances where you go to a coach and say listen yeah i think we should pick this guy and then obviously there's cases you know where you're humbled and And a coach comes to you and says, but you said I must pick this guy, but this guy isn't good enough. So it's not always a thing where, you know, you're always right. Rugby always humbles you. So you can't be always the smartest guy.

So, yeah, now there's been some cases where I'm right and there's been some cases where I'm wrong. But that's rugby. Yeah, well, you can only see what's in front of you. I mean, you can think the guy can do this. He might not see a little pan out to do it.

Or he might be the opposite, like you just said. I want to ask you this question. The Bulls are known for recruiting a lot of younger players. but they don't necessarily all progress to the senior levels. Sometimes they accuse of hoarding the young talent, let's call it that.

You go to the Bulls, you never get a chance to play, and then you end up going to one of the smaller unions just to get some time. Is there any truth to that? Is it valid? I think in the past, if you look at what the Bulls contracted, you can say that. I think we're moving away from the schoolboys where we're hoarding talent just because we've got an under-20 league and we've already got boys that are under-19 that are with us.

so you basically just fill up the holes you have with under 19 with some of the school boys I think it's well documented or I see it's out on social media that we've contracted 14 boys already out of school so those 14 boys we've chatted with them individually there's a plan with all 14 of them and then they're going to fill up the under 20s when they are under 19 for next year and then that's how we're going to move forward so So I think the days of hoarding 50, 60 schoolboys, those days are gone. But another question, one of our good friends started out at, he's a springbok today, but he started out at, I think, free state for next to nothing grand per month. He was almost earning a pittance, but just for the chance to get the opportunity to become a professional rugby player. I'm interested to see how much money these young players, not earn, but cost, You have to invest a lot of money in them. Salaries, development, coaching, recruit, conditioning, and everything else.

Talk to us about that, the money side of it. Do you have a budget and the likes? Can you offer this guy a little bit more or that guy maybe a little bit less without giving any secrets? I'm just saying it's interesting to see how you have to compete for the Stormers, for example, for a talented player. Is it all about the money?

We talk about Jerry Maguire quite often. That's what we have in our mind. how does it work you know is it like a like an auction and you're bidding or how does it work yeah so basically so we have a junior budget you can't go outside that budget you can't just spend what you what you feel like spending so um yeah you obviously uh some of the boys uh you pay us not a salary but there's some money involved when they come off to school obviously there's medical aid, there's, you pay for the accommodation, luckily for us it's at Loftus or across the road here, and then, yeah, there's some meals included, and then there's obviously study bursaries that we, we pay for some of the boys. So, it becomes a big investment, so that's why your talent ID from school has to be good. I feel you can't just go and throw money around a boy that's here for two years and then all of a sudden he's gone so i think that's where my job comes in to be a bit to be a bit accurate when it comes to to identifying talent and who do we spend the money on so we feel we're on the right path regarding that but it is a it is it's not a lot of money for the boys coming out of school or not from the bull side but um but yeah it if you add everything up it's the cost is bigger what's the company just briefly before we go back to paul um you're talking about just across the road what does that mean well now i talk 15 on bond so is that the bulls yeah i didn't know that all right so we've got a few players staying there and then obviously you know the brass in um in the corner there there's where some of the boys stay and then at park street we've got a house where some of the boys stay so we're lucky enough to have that accommodation for the boys oh i didn't know okay sorry man i i have two questions related to this and then i think we'll start to slowly transition to the more senior players but with these young players when they get contracted at a young age to the bulls how much do you stay involved with them after that or is your job kind of over and you're handing them off to the coaches and then my second question is what percentage of that kind of initial pool that comes in in your mind is the expectation that they will play for the senior Bulls and maybe go beyond that?

Good questions, Paul. So how involved are we after they've signed? Look, our outlook is we want to we want to let the boys enjoy their matric years. So we're not as involved. Obviously, I'll send a message to a guy say, well done, good game.

You know, let's say a guy gets injured, you know, I'll do injury stuff like that. So I'll check in now and then, but not a lot. And then obviously when their school season and their metric exams are finished that's where we are quite then we get going with the medical tests and stuff like that our expectation of uh of the guys that we contract uh so basically our expectation is if we contract you you're going to be a spring walk one day um you know it's all in the boys hands at the end of the day i think schoolboy rugby has become such a big thing and the boys are in the spotlight that when you leave school and you come to under 19 20 21 year you know it's a hard graph there's no spotlight it really tests your love for the game superstars at school get dropped for the first time or don't make a team and then how do they deal with it some of them don't deal with it so there's a lot of stuff that goes into into making it or not making it but at the end of the day i feel like the contract's been given to you uh for a for a boy that's coming to the bulls you know that should be a special thing And if you think, well, if the Bulls think that you are good enough, then, you know, the expectation is there for you to become a springbok in a perfect world, which is obviously not the case. Now, typically for me, something jumped out at me, what you just said there. So I'm interrupting Paul again.

Sorry, Paul, I'm being rude today. But that's an interesting point that you raised. You've got this superstar that you've got lined up and now suddenly he's not selected. And now he's acting like a diva. Let's call it that.

I'm just giving an hypothetical here. How does that work? The guy's got the talent, but he doesn't have the personality or the temperament yet. How much effort do you guys put into that side of it, the psychological side of it? Making sure he gets used to this point and making sure that he understands that he has to work a bit harder.

And he's not going to fall in his lap like it's done up to down. Normally, the school guys were the heroes of the school. They want this and they want that. Suddenly, the face of reality. How much time do you spend on getting his head right more than his actual rugby skills?

Yeah, we have specific people appointed to handle that with the boys. So they go and sit with the lady for, let's say, one hour a week where they go through, you know, what they feel and the disappointment and whatever they are going through, which is obviously confidential. And then, you know, she can give feedback to, you know, to me or to Edgar or to whoever, you know, what the guy's going through. So we've become a bit more proactive in that space where we feel we have to look after the kids' well-being, especially if you can see what schoolboy rugby has become. And then after school, you know, it's not as flashy, if I can put it like that.

And then obviously the boys sometimes take a dip. So, yeah, there's people to talk to. Obviously the coaches are there. We're lucky enough to have good coaches that have got good relationships with the boys. and they're quite involved with how are you feeling.

They give good communication regarding why have you been dropped, why have you been pulled up, why are you practicing there, all that stuff. So obviously, yeah, it's tough. But yeah, we're in a good space and I feel we're a bit proactive in that sense. One last question on the young up-and-coming talent before we switch to the more established players is when you're negotiating with their parents slash agents, in your experience, how much of it is sort of a transactional, like what's in it for me? What's the money involved?

Am I going to be playing for the senior team or the junior team versus more of it that you're selling them a dream and a vision of playing for this hallowed franchise, the Bulls, and the path to the spring box and playing at Loftus? How much of the selling is on those softer, let's call it the vision, the dream, versus it's a nitty gritty legal contract negotiation? Yeah, we're lucky enough. I think I sell one of the best products in the country, and that's the bulls. So it's quite easy for me.

And I think that's what draws the kids to loftus, is their dream to play for the bulls. and it's very, very rare that I get to sit with parents and they talk to me about the nitty-gritty, about this money and that thing and that thing. It's all about, geez, they really want an opportunity to come to the Bulls, and the boy feels he wants to compete every day against the best and he wants one day to play for the URC team with the the pool jersey so you know that the type of player that we want and then obviously we we need people to be hungry to want to play for the bulls and to compete every day so so yeah good question paul but very rarely do i sit with parents and we go through the nitty-gritty of the other stuff about financials and stuff they all want a great opportunity to come to the bulls be coached well and hopefully one day play for the Bulls. I just want to get a bit of a dig in here at Paul because a lot of the Paddle Boys High and Paul Ruiz and those kind of players from the Stormers love to end up at the Bulls and have. Cameron Hanenkom being a good example.

Just tell Paul a bit about why would a player from that side of the world want to join the Bulls? I mean, they're sort of arch enemies. Cameron Hanenkom spoke, his dad spoke to us the other day and he said it was quite difficult because he grew up as a Stormers in the Western Province supporter and now having to play for the Bulls is a bit of a mind shift, isn't it? and why would they want to come to the pools when they grew up in that kind of environment? Yeah, I think it would be a good question.

I think if we, you know, we brought, you bring the boys to Loftus for a day or two and then I always tell the parents, you get a feel for the place. You know, you walk around, you chat to Coach Johan, you chat to Coach Nila, you chat to the junior coaches, you know, and then, you know, we sit down and we have a chat about what's happening at the Bulls, the culture around what Loftus is, and then, you know, they make a decision of, is this a place for me, is it not? We don't try and sugarcoat things. People know that when they come here, you have to work hard, and you have to compete every day. Nothing is cast in stone or guaranteed.

And, you know, if they feel this is the place for them, then they decide. We're lucky enough, you know, to get players of Cameron Hanukom's stature from down in the Western Cape. So, yeah, and I think, you know, he's happy because when he was here as a junior, he felt like this was his place. So I don't think we do anything else different than what the sharks and what the stormers and what the lions do. I just think people feel like this is their place.

Okay, Paul, you're the man driving the hygiene on this channel and actually in this chat. So there's no reason not to do the hygiene and hygiene being people. Please remember to like this video if you like it. Just share it with your friends from the YouTube app. please, if you don't mind.

The algorithm loves it, so that means we love it. And I'm going to say this again, people don't believe me, but YouTube only sends notifications to 15% of our subscribers, believe it or not. So if you want to make sure you don't miss any video, join the WhatsApp channel. The link's down in the description below. Just click on it, you'll automatically become a member, and then you'll get informed.

You won't miss anything. So yeah, Paul, anything from your side in terms of hygiene, how much of a difference it's made? No, it really does make a difference, and the bad thing about it is everyone in the comments is calling me Wimpol now. And if they could stop that, but do that, share, comment, like, subscribe, and don't call me Wimpol. That would be good.

Yeah, there we go. Well, you brought it on yourself. I'm teasing with you. You're like the headmaster of the cane. You remember to do your hygiene.

So we do. Thank you for all the effort we put into that. Let's continue with the senior players. Neil, I feel like we could spend another day talking about this recruitment of the young players and the pipeline. It's such an exciting thing, especially in South Africa, where the schoolboy of rugby is off the charts.

But I'd like to transition to the more established, the more senior players. My understanding is your job encompasses them as well. and I'm interested there how much of your job is purely managing the contracts and contract renewals or going out and negotiating for a player that we want from overseas versus actually in some cases even scouting. Do the coaches come to you and say we'd like this player or they'd say we'd like a fly half with these kind of capabilities and you come back to them with the shortlist? Yeah, so that's where most of my time goes now.

Paul, obviously watching the SA Cup, watching the Varsity Cup, watching top 14, watching the Japan One League on ESPN in the mornings, having access to Opta stats regarding the players, you know, who do we need? Obviously, it's well documented on, you know, who leaves the Bulls to go overseas, who's retiring, and then we have to be proactive in who do we want to bring in. Obviously my question is not who's available, it's always who do we want as the Bulls, because we believe we are the best franchise and the best players play for us, and then we go through and we say listen here this is the fly off we want, and then we go and say okay, he's not available. And then obviously we go through everyone that is available and what's our skill set that we want. And then at the end of the day, that's where we get to our decision.

I'm glad you mentioned fly-offs because last week you guys announced seven or eight signings. And I was joking with Edgar that you just confirmed what everybody knew anyway. So he said, yeah, I just want to make it formal. But I'm interested to know, for example, the fly-off situation. Kerwin Bosch was at the Sharks for many years, was at the Junior Springbok and everything else.

but it sort of went nowhere at the Sharks, went overseas. Now, he's on your radar, but he's not here. He's in France. How do you know that is the right player? How do you check up his playing style?

Because he didn't play that often, for example. He said he watched Top 40, but I'm sure you didn't get that much footage of him. Do you speak to people at that union, for example, other coaches? How does that work? Yes, yes.

So, obviously, you get some footage of him, and then you do your due diligence of Edgar Fooning, Ed Coutier, that side. you know you do your work around it and then obviously we as the Bulls what we see as you know we got Andre and then obviously you sit with after that it's Keegan Johannes but then you do your homework and then at the end of the day we sit around the table and we tell each other listen you know this is the guy that we want this is the guy that we feel will make a massive difference to the Bulls. He's going to fit our way of play. He's going to thrive in the culture. And we just feel he's talented.

So that's where we got to the decision. We're very happy with with the Kerwin signing. In this space with the more established players, I'm assuming money is a big challenge. There's a fixed budget that your team has for signing and contracting players. But competing for international players must be really hard and then protecting your stars from going internationally.

Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I can try. I think protecting them, it's not the right word. I think it's inevitable. There are best players sometimes, you know, they get to a stage of their careers where they want to go overseas and earn a lot of money, which we understand.

I think we as the Bulls, we try our best to keep our best players. We try and go the extra mile to keep them, but at the end of the day, it's a personal decision for them that they want to experience a different culture overseas. They want to earn more money. I think for us, we can't really stop that. I think for us at the Bulls, we have to be proactive in knowing that, okay, if this guy leaves, who's the next guy that's going to best fit the Bulls?

And that's all we can do. Just one quick question before we continue with Paul. What's the difference between a cost gap and a budget? So obviously your budget, you know, that's the money that you work with. You can't go over that.

And then, you know, at the Bulls, once I think it's a salary, you know, base. So certain guys earn a certain amount and we can't really go over that. otherwise if you give one guy this amount there's going to be a queue outside our office here for the other guys asking us why why isn't he earning that much so well we've got a we've got a system where you know if a guy is a certain type of player so platinum standard or gold standard or silver standard then he falls into a certain salary bracket so that's a cost cap and then obviously you work within a budget um all essay franchises work within a budget yeah but i'm actually referring to the fact that you are not allowed to spend over i think 85 million rand a year or something like that that's that's that's the kind of cost cap that i'm referring to what does that mean how does that work yes so that's the rule so that's a collective agreement we have as a franchise so basically we've got i think it goes up every year but it's at 92 million for a squad of 53 plus 4, so 57 guys. And then you have to work within that, let's say, budget cost cap in South Africa, which is really tough. This feels like a nerdy business question.

In that cap that you have, do you and the Bulls, Edgar and Johan and you, have sort of a thing that says, we'd rather spend a bigger chunk of that on a few superstars superstars that will anchor the team and then have less for the rest? Or do you try to have a more balanced approach where there are not too many people at the very high end that are just eating up most of that cap? In a perfect world, we'll try and do that. You know, it's your best players and you try and get them up the salary scale. And then you have the next group and then the next group and then you sit with your juniors.

So yeah, we try and sit with that. and then obviously your spring box sits at the top, and then just underneath the spring box is your top quality URC player, and then your youngster who's not really a youngster, but he's going to come through, and then you sit with your junior budget. So, yeah, in a perfect world, we try and do that for you. Yeah, that's actually quite an interesting thing that you mentioned, the spring box and then the top quality URC players. And you saw the Sharks experiment sort of failing, let's call it what it was, signing every single spring box alive, and it doesn't work.

and you guys when Jake started taking over and I said before you joined but his thought was or belief was that you don't recruit springboks you recruit either springboks that players are going to be springbok but were springboks recently and that helped because those players were available constantly in the recent past you've got a lot of new springboks so you're starting to have a problem there is that something that you keep in mind when you're recruiting now? Rather not have a springbok superstar but have a guy just below him that you know is good enough to play for the springboks like Francois Smith said the other day about the Lions he's not yet a spring walker, he might be a spring walker, he's not there yet and he's going to be available, is that something you keep in mind when recruiting? Yeah, we try and keep it in mind I think it's a double head short because I think when you come to the Bulls you've got a dream to perform for the Bulls and then obviously when you perform for the Bulls you become a spring walk, so I think it's a conveyor belt that we have to keep going I think when Jake started he only had like two or three spring in the squad and then all of these guys became Springboks. So, and that's at the cycle, the top of the cycle where we are now, where we feel we have to, you know, you've got your, I think we've got 13 guys invited to the alignment camp. You know, so now we obviously we want the guys that are not Springboks to become Springboks and then the guys that are coming in must have that hunger to number one, play for the Bulls to compete and then to become a Springbok in the Bulls.

Is the gap that you have with the European clubs in terms of financial buying power. In your mind, is that gap getting worse or it's narrow? I think it's narrowing, Paul. There's a few rules coming in place overseas that I hear about, which is going to bring a few players back to South Africa. So I think it's narrowing.

The more that we get involved with the EPCR and the money that we get back from them, I think it's going to be a more level field in the future. So hopefully we'll get to a point where we don't lose the turnover from our top players to overseas clubs. It isn't that big. So there's optimism for the future. My assumption is it's really hard to attract like a Leinster does international players to come and play here in South Africa.

So someone that plays for England or France or something. Do you ever look though at countries like Fiji or Samoa that kind of would fit our physical style of rugby? Do we ever look at them as possible candidates to recruit or do we like to recruit South African talent? Yeah, there's a few Fijians and New Zealanders that landed on my table. Obviously, when we feel the opportunity is right and we've got a massive need and there's not a South African that can fill that need then we'll obviously look overseas but at the end of the day we we're the bulls we probably south african and we want to develop south africans and people in pretoria players in pretoria but yeah if we ever in a in a massive there's no no one available then we'll definitely look international now all right you mentioned uh johan coach johan and coach nila you call him coach new the brain we spoke to him the other day and whatever rugby brain those two guys between them.

And I was sitting in your meeting when you were planning for the game against Glasgow Warriors, championship knockout, remember. And I was interested to see the interaction there. And I'm, you know, if you sit there and you watch the video that you're seeing Johnny is playing for you and you talked about this and you talk about that, can you identify gaps there that you can potentially see, you know, we might need this in the future going forward because there's a definite change in the game plan of the Bulls, you know, the way they played under Jake compared to how they're playing now under Jan and Neil. Is there a difference? Has there been a change in your approach to the kind of players that the Bulls would like to recruit?

You mentioned the Bulls. Typically you think about a pack and a Nars Boeta That it Nothing else You never go past 10 That no change i not saying i just generalizing but has there been a change in the approach of the kind of player that you guys want under your new yeah so that intentional envy of me sitting in those meetings because i think uh your honor and neil wants to once wants me to see what they see so you know again i think it's very smart of them and Neil always tells me I must go stand with him when he coaches on the field so that, you know, he knows what he's looking for. And that I know I'm informed of, you know, what type of player he wants. So that's massively intentional. I think that's what makes them good coaches.

They try and involve everyone, which is great. There's no, they're not really trying to hide anything. And yes, obviously I can see gaps there and what we need. And obviously after that, there's a discussion. and I mean the discussion between me, Johan and Neil, you know, that's daily, never stops.

Sometimes at night there's a message or, you know, I see something on a Friday night, Bordeaux is playing Ulster or whatever and then I message him and yeah, it's just a continuous chat. So yeah, you definitely can see the gaps there. I wanted to ask you, I think it was Jake that may have said he felt like we couldn't compete against the European teams with depth and stuff like that. Now, I don't want to argue with Jake, but I would argue our performance in the URC and even in the Champions Cup shows that we can and maybe our issue is more the global rugby calendar. you're in a position to basically prove that wrong or right.

Do you feel like where we are with our budgets compared to their budgets, we do have an opportunity to compete year after year in these European competitions? I think you're right, Paul, in a sense that if we can align the international calendars with each other and you get your best available players for the most important fixtures, then there's a chance that we can compete on both fronts. I mean, again, everyone knows that Yuan started in last year, June, July, and he only sold the Springboks for the first time in January. So obviously that's a bit unrealistic to expect the Bulls to compete in a Champions Cup group stage matches and the URC. And then when you get to a playoff, then the team only integrates for the first time.

So if we can change the international calendar of hopefully the rugby championship can go to where the Six Nations is and we can align that, then yes, there's obviously opportunity there. But at this stage, it's very difficult to balance all the expectations of the different competitions with the squad of 57. Okay. And this next question, I'm not sure if you'll be able to share it with me. I promise whatever you tell me, I will not tell the Stormers.

As you guys look at next year, do you already have a clear vision and plan of what you need from a recruitment perspective? What positions, where you need depth, where you need a main player? Do you already have that plan today? Yes, we have a plan. We try and be a proactive union.

So obviously we try to be a step ahead of everyone. So I feel it's my job to be ahead of who's available come the contracting window from July. How is the squad going to look post-2027? Obviously it's not cast in stone and and I'm not the only decision maker, but you put a lot of effort in, you know, how it's going to look and stuff like that. So, yeah, there's plans, obviously.

Yeah, but that's the players you announced last week. Because, you know, everything works in a 12-month cycle. Am I right? You're not allowed to speak to players until they end the last 12 months of their contract, typically. Is that how it works?

Yes, Mb, that's correct. So, obviously, your contracting window for the end of next season starts in July. So, yeah, that's how it works. Now, why didn't you... I wanted to ask you this question.

why did you not offer Wilkolo the entire Limpoba province to make him stay? How do you know we didn't do that? All I want to know is you gave your best shot. On that subject, I'm just kidding. But, you know, we typically get a lot of comments on our channel that says, why did you just go buy this guy or that guy or that guy?

And, you know, tell me why you can't. Number one, what's the main reasons why you can't just jump on the phone and get somebody in? Why couldn't we get whoever, you know, some fancy guy into our team? just you know at the at the top of that yeah so basically a lot of factors in beer um number one is obviously the the guys under contract um so there there are rules to this business you can't just go uh wild west and offer left right and center uh then there's obviously your budget with within the the union what you can work with and then obviously your squad i mean the balls have have got a very strong squad and the players that are in the squad I know you know are fantastic players so we feel we've got a very strong squad and the guys there's there are guys there that are chomping at the bit to get the opportunity and we feel that some of them you know the chances that are coming in the future you know that's their chance to to make a make a statement and to be the next guy you understand so so it's not always that easy um just to go and buy it from everywhere we try and we try and um you know use the whole squad and yeah it's it's not you know it's not like you just bring guys in um so so there's a lot of factors so obviously if we see a weakness then we try and try and see if we can fill it from the juniors but it's also not it's unrealistic to have seven under 23 guys on the field in a UFC game, you need experience as well. That also brings in a different factor.

Obviously, we see what the fans see, but it's not always that easy. Can I ask you a question about agents and their role in your job? How big a role they play in your job? an american coach once told me in a joke if you have a room full of agents up to their chest in concrete what do you have and the answer is not enough concrete now is a kind of a negative you and i don't want i know you have to work with the agent could you talk us through in the modern rugby game how big is the role of the agents what do they do what about that is positive and what's maybe not so positive from your perspective? Yeah, I think a good agent always talks you into a deal and a bad agent always prices you out of a deal.

So they're part of the game. I must say in South Africa, 90% of the agents are all good people. A lot of good agents, they are in the rugby know-how. obviously South African rugby is a great market so South African rugby players is a great product to market and there's a lot of obviously the French and the Japanese are quite after our players so it's their roles for their client to make sure they get the best deal so they obviously there's rules to their industry when and where they can they can market their player But that's their role. They're not going away.

They represent the player. I must say we get along well with most of them. As far as my first six months went, especially with the seniors, there's nothing bad I can speak to about the agents. When we were talking about the juniors or the younger players, you said in most cases, money isn't like a sticking point. It's about just the desire for the senior players.

I expect, or maybe I'm wrong, that money is a bigger part of contract negotiations, either new contracts or renewing an existing contract. Is that correct? And how often does that become the reason that that negotiations break down or a deal can't be reached, that it's purely just a numbers game? Yeah, that's a bit more adult life, if I could put it like that, because obviously that they got families and you know children and stuff like that so then your salary becomes quite important so so yeah that's a sometimes a big sticking point especially when you get to overseas clubs and they come fishing and obviously you can only offer what you offer and then it's important for for the player and for the agent you know that the money is right so that that becomes a much bigger factor in negotiations than when it comes to schoolboys Do you feel at the end of the day that agents in the end make your job easier? They're a single point of contact, they're used to these negotiations.

Do they make your job easier as a rule? I won't say easier, obviously it's part of the job. So you get agents in football, you get agents in whatever sport. So I think they try and make it as difficult as possible when it comes to negotiations. Our role as a union is just to make sure that you know what's going on regarding talent and your budget and where you feel the player is ranked or you know what slide of the scale he is when it comes to salary and stuff.

You know if you're not on on on your toes regarding that I think agents will pull you pull you apart. Luckily us at the Bulls you know Edgar has walked a long path with the squad so he's quite he knows what's going on and i i i learn a lot from him every day regarding that stuff so so i won't say they make it difficult they're just part of the game and you know they're part of the negotiations and yeah like i said good agents get you a great deal and bad agents price you out of a deal so neil this is uh really interesting and I think we could keep going for a long time. What I'd like to ask you at a personal level is two things. First of all, do you sometimes have to pinch yourself now as to what job you have and how cool that is? And secondly, is there something about the job, either good or bad, that you don't think other people may know that would be interesting to share with us?

Just if you think about the job something that people don't know uh number one i have to pinch myself um yeah it's fantastic to sit in an office with edgar every day obviously you learn a lot um i've been in rugby like i told you my life but to see this side of the game it's absolutely uh changed my mind completely obviously um the way you see talent when money is involved changes your eye as well. So yeah, it's been a hell of experience the first six months. I really feel in my heart that I'm making a difference in a good way. So yeah, I have to pinch myself. It's a massive honor.

It's a massive privilege. It's a massive responsibility. I understand that and I go every day about making sure that the bulls are better off than what we were the day before but you know it's it's it's a it's a dream to to work here and then uh yeah not really although you know obviously the business side of rugby you know i can keep people um you know engaged for hours with the business side of what goes on in the financial stuff in the commercial side you know what a ceo goes through every day. The phone calls I get as a high performance manager regarding talent and stuff. So I think the lack of thing about my job is every day is different.

And when I wake up, you don't know what's ahead. And then it's a massive privilege because every day I sit with rugby problems. And that's for me, that's what you want to sit with. And that's actually a privilege to sit with rugby problems for a job. And, yeah, so far I'm enjoying it a lot.

I miss the coaching a lot. But at the end of the day, it was my choice to take up this position. And, yeah, I'm not looking back one second. Just my last question is, you know, you're from Afri. Afri is literally across the road.

So instead of turning right, you turn left probably or something like that. But, I mean, it's two different worlds, am I right, compared to what you were experiencing. You've been in rugby your whole life, but this is next level, being at a big franchise like the Bulls. Yeah, so obviously this compared to coaching is already a different world. And then obviously the professional world compared to schoolboy rugby is obviously worlds apart.

So it's been, yeah, obviously it's been fun. It's been hard work. It's late nights. It's a lot of rugby that I've watched. you get clued up you talk to a lot of people so yeah it's a different world and I'm enjoying it thoroughly Alright Neil it was an absolute privilege thank you so much for making time for us like I said we could have done this for another hour or two but we appreciate it thank you anything from you Paul for in closing?

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