How Jimmy Stonehouse Turns Rugby's Unwanted Into Champions | Long Way Rugby Podcast

Why are the players at the Pumas? They are at the Pumas because no big union wants him. And if you can understand that part, you're at the right place. So if you're a player and you're at the Pumas, if you understand nobody else wanted you, this is why you're sitting here. So how do I change you from taking you away from here to going somewhere?

I've got to make it feel uncomfortable. If you once left me without listening, I will never take you back. If you once try to come out of your contract, if it's not the right time and not in the right way, I will never take you back. And maybe that's why I don't go somewhere because I'm too difficult. There were so many talks about a few months ago, I'm going to the sharks and a year ago, I'm going to the bulls.

but it never materialized and then you start wondering why. Are you so difficult? Because it's not that I'm difficult, it's just I want the stuff right, you know. This is The Long Way to the Game, only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to The Long Way to the Game, our fan-centric podcast.

Paul is back on duty in the Honduras, showing off his highway behind him, which is actually the sea. and it's just a bit of a subtle brag there as Neil LeBrain said or Edgar Afbon said. So today we welcome Jimmy Stoneyhouse, coach of the Pumas and one of the best known and most beloved characters in South African rugby. Paul, take it away. Hey Envia, thank you and Jimmy, thank you for making time for us.

As Envia talked to you beforehand, I've been away from South Africa for almost 30 years and so my knowledge of local rugby is a little bit iffy. So the good news is I ask questions like a child, but as I dug into you a little bit i have to say i'm super excited about this i'm just going to give for people that maybe don't know you're like essay rugby coach of the year a few years ago you've won the curry cup with the pumas you've won the last two essay cups and then beyond that have a really really interesting life story and career so welcome to the show i'm really excited to have you here yes paul thank you thank you for the invite and thank you guys for for what you guys are doing for this wonderful game. I'm glad to be part of this. I'm going to start with just, I didn't know that, but I was the first matrix at Hurskow Waterkloof. And being away for 30 years, I actually didn't feel a strong connection to the school and follow their rugby.

But the first person information I read about you was that you were the director of rugby at Hurskow Waterkloof. I went to Waterkloof. I became the director of rugby. I was the first guy that started the rugby academy there. And yeah, I think I had great years there coaching the Blue Bulls, great with me, and the Vata Club did very well all the years since then.

So yeah, obviously what a great play, great school and great achievement it was for me. And earlier in your career, you were actually still actively playing rugby while you were already coaching. Is that accurate? Like when you started coaching, you were still playing rugby. Yeah, I coached Ermelo High School where I was at school as a student and then I played for Southeastern Transvaal at that time, who are now known as the Pumas.

So yeah, I still played while I was coaching as well. Where in that early stage did you kind of for the first time think coaching may be something that I want to do? Yes, obviously I went to the army and I had an injury and come back from the army. I started teaching and then I only had an under 14 D side to coach at the school. And then that team just played brilliant rugby and it was amazing.

And then in that year, the headmaster moved me to the first team. So, yeah, coached the first team, did wonders with the team, great players, well-known players. Many years after that, a lot of them played for the Bulls. And it was just amazing. And the team won.

And then I started coaching the Puma at the South Eastern Strasbourg Graver Week. side for nine years then. So yeah, obviously when I started coaching, I had a bit of luck. Teams were doing good and then I realized there was something in for me. The biggest mistake I made was that I never wanted to leave school because I loved the kids too much.

So guys like Heineke Meyer, Jake White, Franz Lureker, we were in the same era coaching the same Craven Week teams at that stage, but they left for professional era earlier than I did. So yeah, obviously that gap just became bigger. What is it about coaching that you really like? What made it so much fun that you did it for the rest of your life so far? Obviously, the first thing for me is to see what's standing in front of you.

If you can see what's standing in front of you, you can see that person's ability and to use that into the game. I think that is one of the great things that I used to say. People used to say I can turn salt into gold in Afrikaans. a certain goat and yeah and and that's i think the best thing i can do is like i can see the ability of a player and i can coach that ability and with that i think one of the biggest things comes discipline and um i think my whole life is about discipline now while i was researching about you a little bit i think while you were still at we're school water club you had like a really interesting thing in your bio that you were the coach of the Russian sevens team and actually even appointed the coach of the 15s team could you talk a little bit about that and did you do that from South Africa did you go to Russia or how did that work yes obviously the Russian under 20 team trained in South Africa and they need a coach to help for a little bit and so I helped them and we had a big win against the university in South Africa and then they asked me to took the under 20 team to the FIRA tournament of under 19 team to the FIRA tournament in France so at that stage I coached Wyskwer Varukluf where Gary Boota the former Springbok played for me at Varukluf so he played for the box in that FIRA tournament in France and then I became the coach of Russia in that FIRA tournament in France and then the team did very well there and then they asked me to coach the Russian 7-a-side team in Mardel Plata in 2001. So yeah, that's 25 years ago.

And I won the plate final in that tournament. So yeah, obviously I got the job as the 15th coach, but I didn't do that. During that time, did you ever have to visit Russia or spend time in Russia? Yeah, I went to Moscow quite a few times. I stayed there for a long, a month or two.

And I also went to Krasnoyar in Siberia, where I stayed there as well. So, yeah, I had a bit of time in Russia and actually a great place. It's actually a great place. Jimmy, why did you not take up the position as a matter of interest as a head coach? Yeah, obviously at that stage it's also difficult.

You hear a lot of stories about... Yeah, it's difficult about Russia. You know, rugby wasn't that big sport at that stage. And, yeah, it's difficult when... and I always wanted to make it in my own country.

And then I had an opportunity to coach a big club side in South Africa. And then I took that club side. And from that club side, I got an opportunity. That club side won a Turkish twice. And we won the Gilbert Trophy in Pretoria, in the Northern Transvaal region.

And then the Pumas approached me to get the job at the Pumas. And what club side was that? Holoquins. Yeah, Gary Bortles now at Holoquins. You just mentioned him.

Yes, Gary. So you kind of moved into that. So after this Russia stint, which is quite interesting, that's when you moved to the Pumas for the first time as the head coach. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct.

I went there in 2008 and coached there until 2014, went to Japan for three years and came back in 2018, again to the Pumas. But in between there, in between that, you did something else which is quite interesting that had nothing to do with rugby. Can you talk about that a little bit? Your Mr. South Africa and Mr.

Universe competition? I love the…I used to do arm wrestling. It was just for some fun. And then at one stage I realized that maybe I should take part in bodybuilding. And so I started at 40.

And then I won the age of 40, became Mr. South African and went to Mr. Universe in France, Parmigdon. And I came six day in my weight category. So yeah, obviously I enjoyed that still training hard, it's a way of life.

And I'm still enjoying that. Do you still do that? Like powerlifting or bodybuilding type of stuff now? I don't compete anymore, but I still train every day and still eat clean and still do all the stuff you've got to do. And I always like to take that to my team.

I always tell them, if you eat cake, you will look like cake. So I try to be the example for them to be in shape. And I think it's also a good measure for them. Is there something that came from that background, that sport, which is very different than rugby in a sense, but I'm assuming there's like a lot of overlap in terms of mindset and discipline. Is there something that you think you learned from that sport that has helped you a lot on the rugby side?

Yes, obviously the discipline of eating healthy, that's the first thing. Training hard, that's the second thing. And always be on time because you had a training partner. And in that game, it's very, very important. So in rugby, it's the most important thing.

Always say rather an hour early than a minute late. and I think that's one of the biggest things that worked for me coming from bodybuilding into the sport of rugby. By hard training, I know what it is to train hard. I know, you know, I always say, you have to make someone uncomfortable to get him comfortable. So if you don't put people through that hard training and make it uncomfortable, then when the time comes where they really need it, they had to do it before, otherwise they won't get through it.

And I think I got that from bodybuilding. I want to ask you a chicken or egg question here. Because the one thing that, you know, we talk to anybody about JV Stonehouse, the one word that always pops up is discipline. You've mentioned it now more than once as well. So did you do well at bodybuilding and rugby because you had discipline or did you learn discipline while you were doing those sports?

You know, I'm just asking about your background and stuff. Where does this discipline thing come from? I came out of a house where discipline was very, very important. And I played at a school with a coach who coached me. Discipline was very important, you know.

We were a great team. We were also seeing, and we still seeing at the Pumas. But discipline always, always. You know, I can't remember the movie, but one second too late or one second too early, I think it was. I don't know who's the guy in that movie.

inch by inch and a yard by yard. And that's the truth in this game. If you just miss that lift in the line-up of one second or you're too early, then you miss the game. And that will always stick with me when I coach. I will always use that for the guys to explain to them that part of it.

Discipline growing up in a disciplined household, that's sort of you and I and Paul are always the same age as well. Times have changed a little bit. We saw some very famous coaches having to fall on their swords because of the way they discipline their team. Let's call it, let's be diplomatic here. Have you adjusted to the new reality?

You know, the younger guys not really liking or taking to discipline, or is that something that's non-negotiable for you that they have to fit in with that culture? The method still stays the same. It's easy to adapt to one person than it is to adapt to 50. And if you can, I'm still the same as I've been 30 years ago. Discipline is exactly the same for me.

I just think it's not what you say, it's how you say it that changed. In the earlier days, it was easy to say something in a different way. Nowadays, you can still say the same thing, but you can say it with a smile when it doesn sound the same But yeah I think it one of the things that I learned from nowadays rugby players But everything stays the same you know there no change in it Can I ask you to follow up on that a little bit? So if I look at your career, you've coached everything from like a high school team to a Russian national team to a provincial team that I'm sure have different styles and culture. Did your philosophy of coaching, so I get the discipline part, did it evolve over time or how else than what you just said now, did you have to adjust as you went through those different age groups, different cultures, languages?

Just to come back to my coaching career a little bit, in 2001, I coached the Springbok 7-a-side women's team who won the Africa Cup. And then I coached the Barbarians' side in South Africa, the North and the South side. And then I coached the Royal Barfaket against the British Lions. The Barbarians played against England. So yes, obviously, it differs from team to team.

When I coached Toshiba in Japan, I had Richard Kaui, Liam Messam, Corey Jane, all those guys, my colleagues, played for me. so the one thing you must realize um with all the teams in south africa and i and i can say this and it's going to sound strange but the last place you want to be is at the border or a pumas or at the ep because you want to be at the bulls the lions the stormers the sharks so obviously um I got to change your mindset from making you believe you can get back on top. So why are the players at the Pumas? They at the Pumas because no big union wants him. And if you can understand that part, you're at the right place.

So if you're a player and you're at the Pumas, if you understand nobody else wanted you, this is why you're sitting here. so how do I change you from taking you away from here to going somewhere, I got to make it feel uncomfortable, I got you to believe that you can do stuff I got you to make to gel into a team so that the team can win because if the team win people will take you if you want to do stuff and the team doesn't win people they don't see that cohesion, they don't see the team that's doing great and that's the thing you've got to change at the Pumas. So when I went to Toshiba, the training was much different from the training what I do at the Pumas because here I still got to push you into doing stuff and make you work harder and test yourself. Working with Springboks and All Blacks and all those guys, it's a huge different coaching those guys from compared coaching them here at the Pumas. Jimmy, that's so interesting because, you know, But, you know, like I said, I'm always the same age as you are.

And it's difficult to talk to young people nowadays. If I have a young guy sitting there and he's not been signed by the Bulls or the Stormers, and you tell him that you're here because nobody wants, how do they take that? How do you tell them that without demoralizing them almost? They're actually using it as something to motivate them. That's quite a tricky thing.

You know, there sometimes must be honesty in life. I mean, you can tell people stories and they can believe it, then they can sit at the same place for five years but you can tell them the truth why why am i sitting at the pupils that's the first one i always ask him then they say no you're appointed nobody wants me because if i want the bulls wanted me would i be at the pumas when somebody else wanted me will i be at the pumas so for me i'm in the same boat i'm in the same boat then they'll say coach but you've been in Japan. Say, yes, I was in Japan, but I'm now at the Pumas. Nobody wants me now. So you're at the same place.

But I can promise you, working through this, you will go somewhere. Last year, we lost nine. Nine players going to different unions. At this stage of the season, already six going. Three is going overseas and three is going to different places in South Africa.

And that's the thing that became a reality in South Africa. If you go to the Pumas, you will end up somewhere. And the problem with that become then it's difficult to build your team because the players don't want to sign for two or three years because they believe now in their first year they will make the step up and go somewhere. And I ask you about that though because what you said is true in life as a rule is at some point you reach the top of what you're going to reach and if you don't know that it can be very frustrating if you think you're and in other cases it's just a stepping stone to the next step and you just have to keep working how do you know let's start with the players how do you know and how do you help them know when the pumas are the pinnacle of their journey that is where they're going to stop that's as high as they're going to go versus where it is what you've just said it's just a stepping stone and they have to believe and work harder and hone their skills to go to the next level if you if you go into the puma stadium and into the gym and you walk there's a lot of slogans on the wall where it says what you do on and off the field will echo into eternity if a coach have to show you in every meeting on monday the same thing you're uncoachable so i put that stuff out there for players to see it to really understand if i have to show you the same thing and i talk to them a lot of times. I will call them and say, listen, you're playing at the Pumas, you made three of the same mistakes.

If you were playing at the Bulls and you made this mistake twice, you're gone. And that's the only way you can really show players where they can change. And if they still keep on doing the same thing, surely for themselves, they got to understand that that's where it stops. Someone asked me once, but don't I want to keep the players at the Pumas. Yes, I want to build a team.

But if I keep the same players the whole time, the same thing is going to happen. Nothing is going to change. It's like a business. If you're doing the same stuff, your business stays the same. You want to grow.

So I got to make that players better, make them believe so that they can go somewhere, so that the next guy can come in to make the Pumas better. And you know what? A player has got to become a leader in his position. If he cannot take charge at the Pumas in his position, whether it's line outs, loose forward play, backline play, he can never go to a big union. And I sit a lot of times with them speaking about this.

You know, a player plays brilliant and then a big union makes him an offer and he sees the money. But can he make the decision when he's standing next to the next spring bottle? Or is he the guys that are just listening, going to a big union. Because if he goes to the big union and he's just listening, then he's not a leader in his position. Because he's got to go somewhere and give an input that can really work.

And that for me, I can see that easily at the Pumas. That's why when we do our contracting, we can see in two years' time, this guy is going to leave. This guy is going to take another year. And then I will sometimes sit with players and say, don't leave now. Don't chase the money.

It's not the right time and some of them do leave and then after a year that place release him and that's when the biggest issue for that player come because who i won't take him back and that's the discipline part for me if you once left me without listening i will never take you back. If you once try to come out of your contract, if it's not the right time and not in the right way, I will never take you back. And maybe that's why I don't go somewhere because I'm too difficult. You don't take yourself back. No, that's quite an interesting thing.

I sat, you know, I was in my car driving somewhere and next to me was one of your ex-Bumas players. Everybody thought he was going to be the next big thing and he really gets any chance to play you're not going to mention his name and i was wondering about that you know maybe the money is there maybe plays one one or two games a year you know if they ever put the feelers back out to you that's just a no it's not gonna happen if if a player's contract is finished and and they make him an offer yes but if you have a contract in and in the year you want to leave your contract you want to get out of it because there's an opportunity for you now that's wrong life doesn't work that way you don't buy a car when you don't want it anymore when you just give it back but you only learn that when you start with your own business and people are start doing the same thing back because you've got to remember as soon as a big union one shoots because of 59 other players around you that did their part to create you and make you something yes you had the talent and you did your stuff but other people helped you so you've got to finish your season you've got to go through your season you've got to give back you've got to have the loyalty loyalty is is it's not something that you buy money suddenly comes and then you want to jump life doesn't work that way and if you miss that opportunity it was not meant to be it was meant to be in that and that's life just on that subject now you mentioned 39 other players Let's talk about squad size and budgets and stuff. I know Paul's got a lot of questions around that. But squad size, how big is the Puma squad actually? We are 41.

In total? That's not including juniors and everybody, or is it just the senior players? No, no, no. We don't have juniors. We don't contract juniors.

We don't have the money for that. Although when June, July come, we play trials for the juniors, and then we put the team together, but they're not part of the professional system. Okay. I want to come back to this conversation we were having just before that, but I'm going to just park it for the moment. To come to your Pumas squad, where, so you were with the Pumas, then you went for three years to Japan, and then you've come back to the Pumas now for this stint.

Could I first ask you just how different was coaching in Japan? I think it's one of the best places in the world. Going to Japan and see the discipline was actually great and amazing for me. I fit it in very well. I fit it in with the food.

Those people got to work a word, Karashi. They work. They don't stop working. And you know, if you see me, I like that. That's something I love.

You got to take them off the field to stop them from training because they overdo it. So the coaching, the Japanese players, some of them still work during the day and then you had your hours where you train. So the professional guys, Fran Stein, who played for me and all the others, they didn't work so they just come to training. But they are on a different level of, it's almost if every one of those players can play in the professional side. so if you take Toshiba even the Japanese players in that side they're at a high level because Japanese rugby is not so that people think it's not brilliant it's great rugby so the Japanese developed quite a lot in the last few years and it wasn't difficult for me to coach there because the only way I didn't need to do the fitness I didn't need to push them in a different way like I did here with my team because when you say something by listening the first time because you've got your Corey Jane and your Liam Messam and your Michael Leach and those names around you those guys just make a different aura in all these teams you know sitting with Japan's captain in your squad what do you want more of that?

He's English as fluently he translates and it just a great vibe it just great to coach there Did you learn to speak a little bit of Japanese or did you coach in english and a translator would translate how did that work i coached in english and had a translator but at the end of my third year i start speaking japanese japanese really good because you had to have an hour class twice a week every week it's in your contract you have to have it so yeah but you know what if you don't do stuff every single day you you you start uh forgetting about it but yeah it was actually great just quickly uh before paul continues um andre butoria is a good friend of our channel and of us and he's actually coaching in japan at the moment second division size he know red dolphins just so you know um yeah yeah andre phoned me before you went there and you asked me what do i think and oh is it that's so interesting yeah that's the best thing to do if you can go there you can you must go he's flourishing he's absolutely flourishing over there Awesome. Thank you. Sorry, Paul. Then when you left there, what made you decide not to stay longer and return to the Pumas? Every coach believes that he can make it in life.

So that is the question I always ask myself. And that is the thing I always talk to the players quite a lot. When do you make it? And when do you make it? Do you make it when you're a national coach?

do you make it when you're URC coach do you make it when you're just a carry cup coach when do you make it for some people making is it when you're when you're a Springbok coach and I always work to to try to become a Springbok coach but there's so many people that wish they were just in my shoes for them for a lot of people, millions of people I made it but you always got to strive to be better and and when the president of the pumas at that stage contacted me and said the pumas um are going to play in the urc um he wants me to come back i decided that this is my opportunity to come back and that there was always talking about the pumas and greek or play in the urc play in the urc but that never really uh um never happened so i came back and um yeah never happened I was surprised when you said that. Yeah, sorry. I came back from Japan and I won the Curry Cup. And you know what? When I went to Japan and we won the, we played in the first professional final there, I think, yeah, maybe this is my opportunity.

I'll go somewhere. Coming back from Japan in South Africa, win the Curry Cup, being the coach of the year. And then you realize, you know what? Maybe you're not the guy. Maybe it's not meant to be for you.

and then your vision change. You try to make your own team getting into an international competition because that's what I'm fighting for at the moment. So luckily there's a competition coming up for us, but I think you will talk about it a little bit later. Could I ask you not to go back to the earlier discussion where you were talking about players. You said something, by the way, I love your directness and your bluntness.

Even though I have an American accent, I like directness. You said, I am at the Pumas, just like a player because no one wanted me from the let's call it the bigger unions that so in this case what at this stage of your career is your dream if you could wave a magic wand are you do you is your aspiration i want to be at the bulls or i want to be at the sharks or i want to be on the springbok coaching team where are you in terms of that player journey that you talked us through earlier there there were so many talks about uh a few months ago i'm going to the sharks and a year ago i'm going to the bulls but but um it never materialized and then you start wondering why and and you know what sometimes i open the the newspaper and they say the difficult guy with the arms the size of a rugby ball and then you think yes is it are you so difficult because it's not that I'm difficult it's just I want the stuff right you know and and and then I start thinking does people pick people around them because they can they can be the boss or do you pick the best guys around you to make it work and then I decide I'll keep that answer for myself and but for me I will always like to coach the spring box but at this stage I'm fighting for my team to get in the international competition because if I can get them in the international competition and they can get that exposure there and the players can get it there, then your contracting becomes easier and all that stuff, you know, when you only play in the SA Cup and a Curry Cup, even look at the cheaters, the Bulls can sign any player they want due to money and due to the competition they have. Cheetahs are nothing that similar position, but they got an EPCR where they play in. So that's also exposure for players, because that's what players want. And we only have the SA Cup and the Curry Cup.

So for me to get into an international competition where they see my players also can be valuable for our union, getting more money, getting more sponsors and getting more players. And the big thing for me in South Africa, and I ask this question, and people will kill me for this, but I always say this, there's so many talent in South Africa, if you take, let's take 10 years back, if a player 10 years back, he cannot be that old, he can still play, so where's the Craven Week players from 10 years back, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 years back, why can't we have 14 unions in South Africa playing brilliant rugby. Why is it not there? I understand money is difficult. I understand television-wise and all that stuff, it's difficult.

But can we be better or are we okay with only this island four-club setup? Are we only okay with what we have? Because there are so many brilliant players in South Africa and now we accept that and we don't expand it. I believe there's so much space for more brilliant players. even the Curry Cup can be a huge competition in South Africa.

If you look at France, their second division competition. How many people go to that game? Why not in South Africa? South Africa is a country. Yeah, I don't know where the problem is, but I believe we can make it brilliant.

I have a thousand questions right now. I have to make sure I don't scatter into different. So let me first ask, you mentioned this opportunity to play in an international competition and I for one don't know what that opportunity is so what is the opportunity you're working towards getting your the Pumas into? Yeah obviously we also trying South African rugby union to get us into a competition but at this moment due to the Cheetahs where they involved with Toyota we playing now in a competition coming where we play Georgia, Romania and Portugal with the Cheetahs and Griequois and then after the Curry Cup we're flying over to Georgia and play those same teams there. So that's a little bit of international competition so that can work.

Maybe from there on something else bigger and greater and better can come for the teams like Griequois and Pumas and Boerland and all those guys who never knows. So here related to that is a question for me that's confusing to me as a person just kind of re-entering South African rugby. Like your team has won, the Pumas have won the SA Cup two years in a row. I think you've been in the final. We played it three years but we won it two years in a row.

Two years and but you were in the final in the first year too weren't you? Yeah. And the year before that you won the Curry cup we played the final in the cut we played the final and the year before that we won the curry cups this is our fifth final in a row now so that's pretty so this is the confusing question that i can ask is sort of a like i don't know all the details of senate like how is it that you still have to to uh qualify to play in the curry cup each year like why by this time aren't you and the creek was for that matter just like automatically part of the curry cup yeah you know what that's a question we must ask sa rugby but you know what it's also difficult if if i'm at the union like the falcons and they now say the pumas don't need to qualify they won't like it you understand what i'm saying i understand rugby wise you know i'm 16 years at the pumas and out of that 16 years three years i was in japan and out of that 16 years the pumas played in 13 finals and of that 13 finals i was 12 at the pumas whether that was first division curry cup uh whatever competitions south africa made out of out of 16 years the pumas played 13 finals which i think is not too too bad for a small union. Jimmy, what do you think is the future of the Curry Cup? I mean, just, you know, if you had your way, there's no, you know, limitations in money or anything like that.

Is it better to go back to maybe a 14-team Curry Cup double rounds? If money is not an issue and we can play a full Curry Cup with 14 unions and it's strength versus strength, I think that can be great for South Africa. You must understand that the URC is bringing in the money and not the curry cup. So all the big unions will tell you it's not the curry cup doesn't count anymore or I think a lot of people at SRA Rugby don't think it counts anymore because money wise the box will take the money. We won the World Cup we're the world champions, we're the best in the world and so we have to look after those guys but I think there's so much more in our country for rugby that a curry cup can be great how do you change it?

How do you get the money? I believe if we can have a system where we can, the team last in a lock can pick the first under-20s this year and next year these guys can pick. And so you can build the country's rugby. But I do understand money-wise it's difficult because I know how we struggle to get money. It's not that easy.

So I do understand how smaller unions than us struggle. So I believe how difficult it is. You also mentioned strength versus strength. but there's no way the Bulls, for example, against Falcons could be strength versus strength. I'm just giving random examples here.

How would they overcome that? I mean, apart from the money, you get them to get better plays. But it's going to be very lopsided very quickly, don't you think? Yeah, it will take a long time. It will definitely take a long time.

But you know what? If they cannot do it, they can make it eight teams that play a double round. There's a lot of things you can go to. So what are your gifted spectators at the moment? you're playing in a SA Cup which is not televised, you're playing in a single round carry cup where you only play six games, you only see two of the big unions at home what do a sweet owner buy what do a sponsor get back so all that things is the things that's what's bothering me going into the future of rugby in South Africa and if you look at SVD this year if you look at the Falcons this year Those guys, they played great rugby.

And that just said to me that, yes, if we try, and I know SA Rugby does their best. There's only so much television. And there's only so much super sport. And there's only so much money. I do understand it.

But that's just my vision. Blaming no one for what's going on. I just think there can be a way where, and I don't know how, because money at the end of the day changes everything. This SA Under 23 thing, where they brought in seven senior players. I mean, isn't that maybe the way for the bigger teams to play in Curry Cup and, you know, bring the younger players in, maybe make it three or four of the senior players or something like that.

Isn't that maybe the way to go for the bigger unions to be able to make it a bit more of a level playing field? I think that is what we tried to do. But then suddenly we get into this conversation where if they play Curry Cup they don have enough players to play in URC and in France in all the different competitions And now you have my players who forces you to take a few weeks rest So all that things come into conclusion. So easy for me where I sit and want my competitions to work. So for me, I see just a great part of it.

But believe when you're sitting at the big union and you're Ackerman and those guys, you see a different picture. Then you've got my players and then you've got Rassi who want guys to rest. So yeah, obviously it's easy where you sit where I am. Sitting and looking from their point of view, maybe I'll have a different perspective. But yeah, you've got to fight where you are and you've got to fight for your union.

Jimmy, on that, two follow-up questions. One, I heard you talk about what sounds like an American football drafting system. where the worst team gets the best pick in the next year's draft. And then secondly, I've always wondered why rugby hasn't adopted the English football promotion relegation type of thing. Because that would allow teams like you to have a vision of working your way up the pyramid, and teams at the top are not guaranteed that they'll always be there if they don't perform.

Is that something like, is there a mechanism where things like that get discussed within SA Rugby and do the smaller unions like the pumas and the greek was have a voice in those conversations yeah i believe every union has a voice but i believe iraqians of africa has gone too far for a smaller union to get on top um saying that i mean the name bulls and stormers and sharks is so big identity for people outside south africa and inside south africa i see it very very difficult to change um i cannot see it that it will ever change that names they they i cannot see a change it's it's because that's the teams that bringing in the money they bring in the tv games they bring in the money from overseas. They play in that competition. They're the team with the Springboks. And that's how people see it. Everybody see it.

Sponsors see it that way. Television see it that way. So it's going to take South Africa a long time, if ever, it can change that a small union gets on top. How frustrating is that for a small union and the players at the small union and the coaches and the administrators? I understand that reality, but isn't there an element where you just feel like no matter what we do, no matter how good we are, nothing is really going to change?

Or is it just something that motivates you every day? Yeah, you know what? Loving my job, loving the game, loving the players that you coach and giving them a job and they survive and they look after their families. And you know, if I look at this six that's going away from us now, one is going to Harlequin's, one is going to sell sharks one is going to Glasgow Warriors one is going to the Bulls you know that and then and then you realize you know what there is place for a union like us because they are going somewhere and only if if we can make this union much stronger same with Greek was same with everyone there's so many of this players that can go somewhere um how we're gonna get it right it's a big frustration you know if you take the essay cup at the moment and i do understand why it's a qualified competition you gotta qualify but there's no television there's no tmo referee so if there's maybe a mistake and you lose and you don't qualify you lose all the money you get from sa rugby so there's a there's an x on your head the whole time and it's a big competition you have to qualify for but you don't have the best resources so if that actually make it you got to have nerves to get through this it's not I can just imagine how a Franz Steinfeld with the cheetahs being this big name this big union and then suddenly you stare a loss in the eye. If I feel this way, if my nerves is nerve-wrecking, how does that happen?

You know, so I can just believe and it's the same with Jake when he coached in Ackerman, when they sit there and they didn't win the URC. I believe everybody's nerves is the same, but they still have big sponsors. That same sponsor come in every single year and Vodacom stays there and Vodacom back them. But at the Pumas, if you don't win, you lose that SA rugby's money it becomes less boom and then suddenly you lose players and yeah to have an axe on your head maybe that's keeping me younger on my toes I don't know alternatives there's lots of talk about URC B league for example and even talk about maybe some South African sides most notably the Cheaters maybe going back to super rugby any truth to that maybe any merit yeah I don't know You hear so a lot of stories, but, you know, I came back to South Africa to play in the UFC and it never happened. Ten years ago.

What you see, that's the only thing you believe nowadays. But yeah, I believe SR rugby is trying, I believe. With Franz Stein at the Cheetahs, he's also trying hard to get that there's more competitions and stuff. It's great to have a guy like him on board. He's really trying.

because playing it being a springbok now being a coach and he sees what it is around him and i believe he understands and speaking to a niger mayer um he said to me a week ago you know for the first time i know he was at svd years ago when rugby was different but then he was at the bulls for long and now we're sitting at svd and now you realize what it is to get sponsors and having that axe on your head and then suddenly life changes for you as a coach and with those guys on board i think maybe they can can come something can be coming out of it i hope so i've got a feeling there's something brewing somewhere jimmy but you're very quiet so let's leave it there i have just two more questions to ask you jimmy i think we could go much longer here The first one is like, this is really such a storied career. I did my research here because I didn't know your story that well. And still you've given me a bunch of facts that I didn't find in my research. And it's like an onion that you're peeling back. And they're all impressive stories.

In that journey, what has been the highlight for you? What stands out at this moment as the highlight so far? Every time when a player comes back to me and say, thank you, I never understand why. We had all the rules, all the discipline, but I do understand it now. And my last question is, I want to go back to what you said about the coaching and your desire to be a coach either in the URC or at a different team.

Do coaches get feedback like you give your players feedback? Has someone ever told you like, Jimmy, this is the reason that the Sharks haven't given you a job or the bulls haven't given you a job or is it something that you have to guess at you know what i sometimes sat and and then i wonder what what would the reason be um sometimes you know or not sometimes in life you create your own story and um when i was younger it's not that i was the easiest guy um i would say stuff as it is i sometimes made my own bed and now i have to lie on it um maybe i was a little bit too arrogant when i was younger um so yeah i think a lot about that um you know nobody ever told me i always just hear that um it would be difficult to work with me because for me I'm a straight shooter and stuff, I don't I don't change stuff you know, when I go out with my players and I have a beer with them tomorrow everything is the same for me I don't change, I don't have a friend you're not my friend tonight you're not my friend tomorrow it's the same thing for me I don't see a player, I see the person in front of me don't i don't if i pick a team i see the team you know it's it's it's different for me and i sometimes wonder why they say people cannot work with me because it's having having better people around you that can make it better it's not it's not having weaker people around you and you can just go on with your way i don't know if you understand what i'm trying to say i do i sometimes wonder if it's that. But yeah, maybe I made my own bet being too arrogant and being too outspoken. So yeah, cannot change who I am. There's a lot of talk about players or coaches being too close to their players, too friendly with them, you know, a bit of a Antomiskor kind of approach.

You're not that guy. And what do you think of those coaches? Is there a place for that in the modern game? Or do coaches have to be a bit more strict and a bit more distant almost? You know what?

I'm very close to my players. There's a lot of them I'm very, very, very close to. All of them, in actual effect, after each game, I have the guy that will open an account and say, guys, let's have a beer, you know? I'm that guy. But tomorrow morning, that's over and done for me.

And that's me. I can put the party together and I can make it work. But tomorrow morning, I'm the first one there. and then all that party from last night is gone and and that's and that's who I am I'm not a guy I don't stop you from drinking you're supposed to know when you've got to stop I'm not the one that's telling you this is how it works you've got to know how it works but I'm also the one that will open a tap and say guys let's have a beer together and at least I know where they are you know and we'll have that drink together and we'll have a lacquer party but I'll be the first one tomorrow at work and when stuff is not right tomorrow I don't see over it and I don't miss look at because we had a party last night everything is exactly the same for me so it's I'm very close to my players but they know where to draw the line and not to draw the line Jimmy this is my final question to end this I promise we talked about a lot of different things that that would in your mind make rugby better that you'd want to do? If you had a magic wand, except being the Springbok coach, except for that, of all the things we talk, if you could make one thing be that way next year, what would it be?

Would it be the Pumas in the URC, you coaching the Bulls? Is there something that just one wish that you would say that would be my one thing? The biggest wish that I wish for is that I can get a big sponsor, but in any way. But yeah, to play in the URC, to have the money to build a team to play in the URC, I think that would be one great moment for me. Jimmy, thank you so much.

You spent a lot of time with us. I appreciate it. And we had our technical challenges, but we worked through it. But thank you so much. And Paul, I think you can take this one home.

I don't know. I just want to say, Jimmy, it's easy to say that it's an honor to speak to someone. But I just want to say it really for me was a privilege to talk to you. I learned a lot. I appreciated your frankness and I'm so impressed by your career and what you've done and your passion.

So thank you very much for making time to talk with us. Yeah, guys, thank you for your time and thank you for taking time to have this chat with me. And thank you for what you guys are doing for rugby. I really appreciate it. This is the long way to the game.

Only on Megaphone Rugby. Thank you.

Transcript generated automatically — may contain errors.