Franco Smith: Glasgow, Italy, the Scotland Test – And What the Future May Hold | With Gráinne Seoige

Welcome back to Megafon Rugby and yeah today back by popular demand, very popular demand actually, our good friend Gronje Sochi and I'm never sure whether I pronounce that surname correctly. Gronje is going to help me interview our special guest today Franco Smidt. Before we get to Franco, welcome Gronje, are you ready for this? I'm really really excited to chat to Franco because I find him fascinating. He's a Soti I think like me at this stage now.

He's been so long gone and he's Afrikaans in Tisneer and Dar. So I think it's going to be fascinating and I'm very excited. Well you're the opposite of him. You came from the north down to South Africa and you've learned some Afrikaans. He started as Afrikaans but now he's up north.

So I thought you know the perfect juxtaposition. So I'm going to leave it to you because there's a very special you know touching point between you and Franku sharing something in common that you didn't know either of you until you didn't know until just now. So talk to us about that. Yeah so hi Franku first of all. On genomic ennis.

Oh, I'm pleased to meet you. I wouldn't say that my English teacher at school will be very happy with my tenses at the moment. It has improved, but I'm not going to clarify myself as a soti yet. we'll be we'll decide that um what i wanted to talk to you about is um most people who know the show know at this point that i'm from galway i'm a conacht woman and how i ended up meeting envy and harry was because it was biggie quat after um just kind of went to the stormers and beat the stormers in cape town and i i wrote in to complain about the analysis and then i was invited on the show and here we are but there is a man who's joined at the hip with you every Saturday and that is Nigel Carolyn he's a Galway man born and bred like me and the funny connection is that not only are we both from Galway but he played out half for my husband in Corinthians for a year as well Corinthians were he was already in the academy he was already working his way up but he ended up playing for my husband Leon in Corinthians in Galway for a year. Yeah, look, Nigel keeps that part of his game quite tight and close to himself, you know, so yeah, it's good to know, you know, we're very similar-minded and he's my right-hand man there at the Warriors.

We get along really well. He's, and I must say, that's one thing I've noticed when I always get to Galway, is his heart and soul invested in people more than in the game and that is what we're about. I'm all about the person and not so much about the rugby side of things and he's joined up so nicely from that perspective. Different cultures born in different stages and we share that similar passion for player development, growth, execution and performance and in the same time coaching the person rather than the player. So yeah, it's good to hear and I will definitely, you know, he is evidently when I don't look silently rooting for Connacht in every game during the season so Topman, his parents just live across the Connacht Hotel so whenever we get there he jumps across and go and see them so fantastic to hear that there's a connection from that perspective Yes and the other thing Leon said was obviously he was still from the academy at the time and he was as exactly what you said, working with people, developing people, bringing them on making them better.

But he said he was amazing at fines meetings as well. That he's a great guy in terms of, you know, what we call the crack that goes on around the game as well. Yeah, that was also the first word I learned there. What's the crack? So yeah, he was somebody that reminds me about Franco, what's the crack tonight?

So yeah, he's a very duvial guy and a real good person to have, not just in the coaching group but just an off the field environment as well. So now that we're talking about Connacht in Glasgow and, you know, obviously you were top of the log in the URC, we scraped in at number eight at the end and it's Stuart Lancaster's first year in charge and you were there a while. And I was there in February at the Dexcom when Connacht stole that win in the end. and I looked back up. You know, where you are in the stand, in the Dexcom, you're right beside the spectators.

And I looked up and I saw your face. And Nigel obviously has a very good poker face as well because you could not tell that he was secretly loving Connacht's win or anything like that because he's a professional. But what struck me and has struck me every time I've watched the two teams play recently is the similarity in styles. I must say, I would start by saying Conant's tenacity is something that stands out. They stay in the fight all the time.

They're honest people, they're honest in what they do, nothing flashy. The type of players that they've contracted is hard-working blue-coloured people. And that's similar to what we've got at Glasgow. So it wouldn't surprise me that people from outside could see the similarities. I think our resources, both these unions have different, or these clubs have different resources.

We're not financially that healthy or wealthy in comparison to what other clubs are about. But the good people, you know, and the idea that, again, good people make good players is our mission and the good people, again, in both environments. I think Stewart coaches a very similar way. I think he's a little bit more on the defensive side of things. I think John will do it as the scrum and line-out operator.

I've been coaching against him for quite a while before, even he is very well-drilled, very well-organized, always up for a plan. Very similarities, but I think I've got a lot of respect for the Conrad people and the durability. they in for a fight when i saw that we drew them in the in the round the quarterfinals i was actually you know wouldn't say disappointed but i knew well for a big fight and they they brought that just that you know i think um ken printer goes as a leader there shows it proves to everybody that um what is representing and how he's going to represent that and then with a well-organized coaching group um yeah they make they're a very hard team to play against i see kian in front of as an Ireland captain in the future. I don't know what you think about that. Precisely because of what you're talking about, that tenacity and that honest way of playing as well.

I think Connacht were always very good and I wouldn't say flashy, but their running rugby was lovely and, you know, they're attacking rugby, but defensively they were porous. And I think since Stuart came in, even though, as you said, he's on the other side mostly, but I think he's holistic like you. I think he takes a rounded view of the whole game. There are no silos. everybody should know what everybody's job is so that everybody can pitch in but I think what Connacht are bringing forward I agree with you they're not they don't have the flashy a lot of flashy private school players we'll say but it's um it's a hard-working team it's almost like an old-fashioned vibe to it and we're very proud of that in the west because Connacht was nearly put to sleep a few years ago by the IRFU.

They should be and they just signed a very good fly-off Now, I think Frawley will come and play fly up there. I think they are bolstering themselves up there. And I think, again, you know, hard work beats talent. If talent doesn't work hard, then they are evident of that. Talk to me about hard work then as, you know, coming from where you came from, making your debut in 97, when there was a lot of changeover from amateur interprofessional era.

and I always get the feeling from talking to people here in South Africa that you know rugby is instinctive it's something you grew up playing you don't even wear shoes for the first seven years that you play rugby and it's just it's literally in your blood and hard work is just a part of that you don't expect to succeed just because you've been given a nice pair of shiny boots talk to me about the culture of hard work and communicating with younger players now who are maybe millennials and even into Gen Z who might have a different attitude to hard work? How do you communicate that with them? Look, first, I think South Africans, you know, are brought up with a mission, and that's to play rugby. The pressure at school, you know, I just heard that a great college under nine game last year. There were 3,000 people, you know.

There's a lot of pressure that comes with it. And I think we talk a lot about hard work, and it's not just that. I think that drive the determination, the hunger to succeed, but also how to handle pressure, you know, from an early age, allow these athletes to develop a different mindset. Development's very important first, and then the South Africans are born a little bit bigger, and they are a little bit stronger, you know, and they measure themselves against each other from a young age, from a physicality perspective. so the physical development for me obviously is very important, that leads to a different technical development, you know, for years South Africa just tried to run over everybody that is in front of them but I think there's enough skill set now in front of contact and you know, to make them a very prolific team with very prolific athletes they can, you know, good skill set and that you know, from a kicking game, the ball fly so nice and far there.

From a young age, they kick the ball just further than everybody else because of the height above sea level in most of the cases. But even at sea level in Cape Town and Durban, the weather is good enough for the ball to be warm enough and it travels further. It just allows them to develop a complete all-around game. Good set piece forwards. The height of the players are well-renowned.

The whole of Japan are playing with them. The whole of the world has picked all these still players from south africa so so yes hard work physical development um yes that plays a role but then i think that the the most important part about south african record players is the fact that they are mentally mentally tough because they grow up in these precious environments they play i uh very important every game in south africa is important it's not even if you play in the d or in the e team at the school it's an important game there's a lot to be said by parents afterwards, you know, and I think as most parents are, the older they get, the better they were as players. So they start putting pressure on everybody, you know, to bring out the best performance. And so they are challenged. But I think the most important ingredient is the ingredient of faith.

I think the South African people in most departments are still measuring themselves to higher power and they do not want to misuse that opportunities that's been given to them through the grace of the Lord. So with all of those ingredients in player development, it's natural that these guys will come out on top. You know, the school, inter-school competitions, my sons both, I took them back in 2013 from Italy to have experience South African schoolboy rugby. and you know you get tears as a spectator as a fellow rugby person if you can see the the quality of the play that they deliver the how well they coach how much investment has gone into them and the passion that comes with that so you know it's um it's an unfair environment to the rest of the world i think i agree so much quality players and the passion and the growth i mean even the football countries. I mean, in Glasgow now, obviously, it's Rangers and Celtic and I can see the battle there between the football teams and everybody getting kick and ball and the way they develop their players and, you know, you'll have your countries that's got different interests but South Africa, obviously, that is the main strength at the moment is the product that they've developed there from a young age.

Raku, you picked up something there. You said in 2013 you brought your sons back to South Africa Was that why you came back to let them play sports rugby? I mean, you went back to the Cheetahs and Simlas and everything. Yeah, that was right. In the start of the 2013-14 season, I already announced that I will not extend my contract with Benetton after having been there for seven years.

It was to allow them to get the right next guy in place, first of all. And it was allowing me to give my children a chance to go back to South Africa. Franco Junior was then going to grade 8. He was going to go for his first year and then the club was halfway through the season in 2013 to be exact the 24th of December We agreed that they found somebody else We agreed that we not going to win the European Cup or Heineken Cup back then We're not going to necessarily play in the semifinals of the Pro 12 back in the day. So they agreed to let me go so that my son could have started school from January.

And, you know, to get into a place like, you know, college as an unknown, you know, I haven't played junior school rugby in South Africa. It was already a big challenge, you know, and a big step up for both my sons. The younger one was still, he was 11 or 12 years old back then, but he fortunately had a little bit more time to settle in. Yeah, so that was the main mission. And maybe also the reason when he left in, when Larasse asked me to move to Cape Town, it was my son's matric here in Great College.

And, you know, I've spent too much time through rugby away from my family. And at that stage, I thought it was the best thing to rather stay in Bloemfontein, go to the Cheetahs and then to continue with the Springboks, you know. And a year later, they won the World Cup. So it was a different decision. I made career decisions as well for my family.

And while you can see that you are shooting yourself in the foot in some sense, you know you're doing it for the right reason. So I don't think you ever really you regret that, do you? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I think I believe in, obviously, I'm a believer and I believe in the Lord.

He's paved my path with things that I can't control. And I think that was just another decision to make the right decision and to make sure that I do the right thing rather than the popular thing. Can I ask you another question as well Franco? I'm very interested in the fact that you brought the boys back when they were just coming into their teenage years, which are formative years, back to your own culture, back to your own language, back to your own land. And it strikes me that there is also a particular type of masculinity that comes from South Africa, particularly Afrikaans culture and I'm you know I'm living with this and it's it's quite striking it's almost like an old-fashioned masculinity when I started dating my now now husband I called him Rhett Butler for a long time because I wasn't used to door opening or chairs being pulled out for me or you know just chivalry I suppose but also there's that part of the culture in South Africa where You can carry yourself in a way you can, you know, I'm not saying that you do it, but as a generalization, men in South Africa are raised in a very different way to the way people are in Europe.

we're quite far removed from many of them not all of them from where food comes from you know how to butcher an animal how to cook it you know how to skin it how to live rough if you really really had to and i'm just asking is there a part of that that you wanted to give your sons as well that ability to defend themselves to you know to embody that spirit of africans south African manhood that you're just not going to find in the north of Italy. Yeah, look, that was part of it. I think we brought our kids up, Afrikaans, and I think we traveled enough to South Africa for them to know the difference, you know. So yes, I can't say that was the main objective. I think we've got a good balance of culture in our home, and we had that.

I grew up in Lundfontein, so my parents were teachers, and so it's easy to adjust their way of thinking and my sons and my daughter's way of thinking and the way they approach life with that. They've all shot the buck, they've all been out there doing the South African thing. And that period that I went back obviously allowed us to do all of that, but I grew up on a farm in South Africa, so it's easy for them to still relate. And in our home specifically, it was never about you know bringing them back for a specific cultural reason or to grow or to develop they naturally had that part i thought um but it did um challenge me obviously back in europe to bring that approach from south africa into the the northern hemisphere cultures you know it's different languages it's you know i have worked with aborigines and i worked with uh with maoris and um Fijians I've had even a Portuguese guy playing a peniton when I was back here um I literally um I've worked with English people I've worked with uh now Scots I've worked with Irish people I've worked with all the um basically with every all the cultures now and you know it it is not um the easiest thing to impose a specific way of do the way we can easily impose in South Africa the team talks in South Africa is obviously slightly different than what we do or what needs to be done you know to get the best from people so yeah i think um from that perspective it's the thing that intrigued me most here i think france will probably say the same about the japanese where he's at the moment so um it does intrigue me a lot and it it allowed me to broaden my experience and also my understanding of working with people and i know you know now in in all the different environments, I think the South African ingredient was so important because it comes back down to hard work and not appreciating what you've got every day and the privilege to do what you do. So it's easy to hold them responsible.

And so again, I think a lot of that culture is part of my approach. I again like you said as a player I came through from an amateur side a lot of the amateur stuff stayed in my playing career and until we can become really professional I think after the 2000s you know that first part was more you know people that got paid for things to do thing that they were really they really like to do it I think it was was absolute benefit to being getting a salary to be able and to be able to do it full-time but professionals obviously grown from there and the same, it's a similar ingredient now. As amateurism took me into professional sport, my heritage obviously got challenged in the way I bring across a message every week in the Northern Hemisphere. Franke, just a couple of questions. Firstly, where are you?

I forgot to ask you right in the beginning. Yeah, I'm currently in Italy. I kept my home here. When I left in 2022 for Glasgow, after Glasgow, I knew my son, or my son, I knew Franco was going to marry this Italian girl and I was hoping to see my grandchildren one day, I would probably have to come here. And we love Italy, we've embraced the culture, we've already lived here before that for a long time, so 10 years or 12 years, I'm not sure.

So yeah, I'm currently here, but I'm coming back home on Friday, and I'll be in South Africa. My second son will get married on the 25th of July, so there is a bit of a purpose to that, but it's also good to go see my parents and my wife's mum, and I'm in time there for a Scotland game on Saturday. So it's a good journey back before we start up again the 3rd of August. Well, it's a perfect segue for me. Sorry, Grania, just to quickly ask you, last time we spoke to you was the evening of your other son's wedding and now it's your second son's wedding so there's a trend going here yeah I'm just it was quite challenging I don't know if now it's out of the way I suppose but no it's good last year I was concerned that John would also make the next time to come and play with when he decided you know his wife to be and them are together already since they were at school you know, it was the next step for them and he would prefer to, you know, come here as a married couple rather than him or them separately.

So, compliments to him from that perspective strength to the principal and so yes, they will get married and then hopefully, I told my daughter, she must wait now until, you know, we can't do it every year. Congratulations to them Franco and wishing them health wealth and happiness. I'm glad you brought up Italy because it is something I'm fascinated about in your career because I was thinking about you and it's this and I know I am referring to a sort of almost a stereotype but I think you embody that or don't look a Afrikaans man and then you go to Italy and it's so flamboyant and Latin and emotional and you know we know italy very well in ireland because we we come up against them every year in the six nations and people like michele lamora who speak so well and communicate so well and the new italy but yet met those players you you turn that soil and you watered it and you tended that field and i feel like you have an almost fatherly feeling for that current team that italian team and i know it's reciprocated i i know they love you too and here you are you've kept the house in italy your son is married to an italian talk to me about that love that that that true two-way street of love between you and italy oh look it started in 94 you know i came out and played in modernah for a season um just as an amateur we were just two foreigners at the club I had to learn the language. I learned the language phonetically. So years, years later, I only realized that some of the things that I was saying were three words and not one.

But I am, you know, so I think that the culture was important for me coming from the South African Afrikaans environment. You know, it was such a shock to the culture system that I, you know, had to go with the flow or get left behind. So, you know, I love the history. I'm a part-time historian um so i i love the history part of it i to walk in a city that's that's a thousand years older than south africa you know it makes it it is it was different than that i think wasn't originally that intrigued me and then i always thought said you know i will think i would like to finish my career in italy just because i thought it's a great place i came up to see benetton in that period in 94 and wayne smith was a coach back then here and we we spoke john Kirwin and Craig Green, Michael Aynna, what they were all about. I just thought it would be a good place to come back today.

And then when the opportunity arose, I came back for a stint in Bologna just to do a bit of coaching. I wanted to and I was still in the preseason of the Super 12 back then still. So it was just a brief period that I came across and not the best experience. But then obviously at the end of 2002 when I came to the end of the career this opportunity came about so yeah that was the rugby playing side of things and that actually just I started, I was the assistant coach with Craig Green here as the head coach and I just fell in love with it and then in 2008 when I went back to South Africa Russia I asked me to if I would be his assistant coach I just had one season left here and he asked me would I be the assistant coach for the first super rugby campaign the cheaters were going to be involved and that was 2006 so i was i was still meant to play 2006 um benetton you know they they they allowed me out of my contract so i went straight into coaching and i did two years there and and the evening that russi in 2007 resigned from the cheaters the same the very next morning we were down in queenstown in in New Zealand on the rugby tour, on the super rugby tour, and I got the opportunity to go and coach here as head coach the very next morning. I didn't, this is, I'm not making this up, but as he resigned, or told us as management that he's going to resign at eight o'clock the previous night, that next morning at four o'clock I got the call because I didn't know where I was, so they called me at their time and we were down in Queenstown.

So it took a bit of, you know, thinking and then I decided to come back to Italy and coached seven seasons here. In this whole time, my children went to the Italian schools, we made Italian friends. Obviously, if you have kids that play the junior game, you get to know a lot of people. That was the first part Then when I went back in 2013 like I explained before and then in 2019 Conor O called me and Franco Asshoni who that was here, and said, would I not come back as the head coach? He's going to move into performance director's role.

And I said, yes, I would love to come back at that stage. So I came back in here and then found the place a little bit disjointed. you know, and for the end of 2019, I came back with a mindset because in 2013 when I left, we went from one international base, two internationals, and when I started there, through the help of pro rugby, we became 25 internationals at Benetton, and I still thought I would find that players here. That was obviously six years, seven years later, a lot of them finished at the 2019 World Cup, and so we had to start over in 2020, and I realized that the player development pathway was done wrong here because the two franchises all aimed at winning in the competition in the in the pro 12 back then they just wanted to end further up the lock there was pressure from the from the pro management to get them up um you know to next level benetton was losing against zebra and they they were at the bottom of the table for a couple of years and i came in here and suddenly i had to pick 13 under 21s into the in the six nations and the COVID happened you know COVID hit this place really hard in the sense that the flats are so small where these boys live and so we had to reconstruct that in a short period in 2021, the end of 2020 and then 2021 in the Six Nations and then at the end of the 21 season I said to them look I can have a better influence if I get to work with it and put the blueprint down for the clubs to work in them as a national coach. In a test match environment you need to win and we're not going to win with the young boys as they were.

That's where Michele Lamar was introduced and the Garbizis and all of the names there. Everybody there. Now I see they've all played 50 tests and when I left in 22, I said actually to them Italy will have in 2031 the team with the most caps ever in the competition because they're going to be all they will start at the same time they will play together and they will stick together and the new guys will have a blueprint and the younger players will develop into it and so yeah you're right i'm i'm really proud of the way that italian rugby develop i'm not saying that i've had all the influence obviously a lot of other people have been there i was that guy that had to start at the bottom and had to be brave enough to pick the next generation in a very difficult period i was I've been asked by a television presenter, how difficult is it to practice defense in a test match week? And I was actually really embarrassed. You know, if you stand in front of the camera for a rugby program that you didn't have anything to do with, and that's when I decided I'm going to roll up my sleeves and see if I can't get a blueprint or a rugby program out in Italy.

Look at them now. Nobody wants to face Italy anymore. I think they went over a little bit of a speed hump this weekend against Japan, to be honest. yeah talk about speed bumps let's let's move to rugby a little bit because that's what we're really interested in as well is the uh scotland actually managed to beat argentina in argentina and of course this weekend coming up to play against springbox now i wanted your opinion on the springbox side that russi selected does it is it a bit of a thumbs up or uh you know a bit of a showing the finger kind of a thing to the scotland team are they underestimating or do you think this is a proper side that's good enough to beat even one that's beaten Argentina recently. I think South African rugby has got so many layers of good players.

Again there's not one player that will not step up to the plate. Even one inclusion having played in Scotland for so long he must know. Rassi would reason that he knows Xander Fagerson so well and he would like to prove to Xander and he would like to prove to Scotland that this is what you're missing out on. All right, Buon, show us now, I suppose, what you're about against the Scotland team. So I think he's picked the team clever.

I think the fact that he's announced it early, the freshness is going to be so important for them in the sense that they know that travel from Argentina back to South Africa is not easy. They haven't done it themselves. the six hour or eight hour time change will obviously make a big difference. He knows Scotland must move, must travel back. He's picked a fresh team that will be eager to prove that they can play in the rest of the champions.

You know, if you look at the Springboks' schedule in the next four or five months, it's massive, you know. So they're going to need the depth. These boys all want to play in the important games. They're going to put their hands up. It's a real honour, always been a real honour to play for South Africa, but the competition is now so big that everybody in the team wants to prove that they can play that often and they can be the best in South Africa.

So, no, I think, apart from having a big depth in squad, the fact that Scotland must travel and will be not as fresh at the back end of a long season for the Scotland players, I think Rase was very clever in the way he's picked the team. Well, we've come to know the Scotland players now because Glasgow is one of the grown into one of our traditional rivals it's actually becoming one of the games of the year when the Bulls go play Glasgow and the Stormers go play them but talking about this team, Fynne Russell was playing what are we seeing there? What players do we have to watch out for in the Scotland team? The ones that you know because you've been coaching most of them what players should we be keeping an eye on? I think Fynne will be back this week I've got no doubt I think I agree with you there's a lot of experience in the Scotland's performance on the weekend.

One, they've lost in the semi-final. A lot of those players as the first time back out there, they wanted to perform. I think it's a green was there. The second thing, having had to have so much Glasgow players in the team, the second part of it is they were leading Argentina very well at Murrayfield. Then basically got boot off the field after they allowed them back in.

So there were so many ingredients in that team that lifted their performance. I think they had a good week in Spain the week before. Nice summer weather, travelled across late, well organised. Again, back to what players, I think it will be a similar team that we've seen. Zander Fagerson will start and not come off the bench.

I think some of the players they put their hand up for more responsibility, but there will be maybe a change at the lock. Gilchrist will probably be in there and the place of Johnny Gray. So, I think it will be important for Sione to play well again. It will be important to see a lot of the continuity from the weekend, but with the right freshness and ingredients that is on tour, added to the squad they've put out on the weekend. I'm sorry to have to bring this up, but you mentioned the semi-final now, and you said they lost, but you've lost.

You were also there. And I was watching your face. I was obviously supporting the Bulls. I was very relieved at the end of that match. But, you know, talking about that experience that you had, the feeling of it slipping away, how did you manage with the players afterwards?

What was your message? How did you guys get across that, over that? I don't think you get over something like that, Demir. It's a tough one. You know, we've worked hard all season.

We fought back so nicely after our poor performance in South Africa. There were reasons. I mean, it's too evident that we've been leading the table and the stats tables as well before the tour and again afterwards. Obviously, we went through a bit of a period there after the loss in the quarterfinal, you know, getting people back to fitness, the right fitness levels after the Six Nations because obviously the Test match period and the condition came down a little bit in comparison to what's needed to perform in a in a club game and the way we play. So there was a lot of work.

And then obviously with the travel and, you know, playing two teams that was fighting to be one to be on the top and the other one to be in the top eight. It was a difficult tour. And we did so well against Ulster, sorry, Cardiff, Ulster, and then Conrad and the quarters to get back to that form and that shape. And I thought, so, yeah, in the 20, with 23, when it was 21-3, I think everybody wanted the game to stop right there. I think they realised that we've done our job, we're playing well.

And when I left the changing room at the halftime, I had that feeling that if we score first, we can get it done. And we didn't. And suddenly we started seeing the bulls coming in the rear view mirror. And I think we ended up trying to stop them. Oh, sorry.

Our fear of losing became bigger than our will to win. and I will and want to win. And it's a difficult thing to, you know, to understand maybe for people sitting on the couch or that's not professional players or sports person, you know, and it happens in every sport. It's unfortunately one of those experiences you have to breach. It's going to bring me back a little bit to just experience levels of the South Africans, for example, who plays high competitive rugby from school, like schoolboy time, you know, they play these 15, 20,000 people in the schoolboy game and they understand how to deal with pressure and how to get over it.

Where in the Northern Hemisphere we're not privileged with that. Scotland have not played in the World Cup, in the Junior World Cup since last year for five, six years. So the big matches that's needed to develop that as an ingredient to bring that last bit of tenacity out of the players, unfortunately, must come through experience. And it sounds so hard. I'm not using the words built and growth and development.

I hate them because it's not part of what we are at the moment. But it does play a role in the sense that we need to get these ingredients in place. Now, the one thing that counted in our favour when we came to 24 was the fact that we did not have expectation okay we didn't bring part of our baggage on the trip down was not expectation and this time around we had the expectation the wrong expectation is you're afraid of disappointing people and when you have that in your changing room unfortunately you know that it can interfere with with best practice so again how we got over it obviously it's tough we're going to use it as a motivator and obviously an infant an important ingredient but again this is now the last hurdle in my mind I can't see that there's anything else preventing us from delivering our best performance every week if we get everything aligned Can I scoot across to Scotland and consistency, I'm just looking back at the six nations this year Scotland obviously they beat England, they lost to us Italy beat them and it just feels like they're on this massive seesaw where they don't seem to be able to get a consistent 80 minute performance and a lot of those players play for you and are consistent, you were top of the log at the end before the playoff started in the URC what's happening there, it's a bit like Leinster and Ireland where Glasgow are the bulk suppliers to the Scottish national team what's happening because You see the opposite in South Africa where players might have an off game or a couple of off games, but they pull on that green and gold jersey and it's like Popeye eating a can of spinach. Something extra happens, but it doesn't seem to happen in Scotland. Yes.

So that's it. That is similar to what I just answered before. You know, they go to Italy in the first best match of the Six Nations, a lot of expectation and they flustered. And then they come back and then that determination, lack of pressure, the pressure's a little bit off. They play for more than just to win the game.

England arrived there with, you know, Scotland lost the case, Italy. England arrived there with a lot more firepower and then they outplay them. And then they go to Wales and then that fear of failure sets in a little bit. and if Wales manage that game different, they lose that game, it will put them back on their haunches, they go back, they play with nothing to lose against France and suddenly they can win the Six Nations Championship and that's the same that's happened with us, home advantage and that expectation, that expectancy and that suddenly weighs, it comes into the baggage and again, if they are used to playing in those kind of test matches or in those kind of finals so often that the expectations dealt with before the game We tried everything I built a dam wall with a dry site and a big water mass on the other side And we have pillars in our game, which I then put into this dam. And I tell them, you try and keep this pillars up.

That will keep us dry. Keep the dam of expectation. Build the dam wall against the expectation. But if there's a little crack, it's sometimes a flood, you know, whatever on the other side. side if I can use that metaphor to explain what I'm trying to say.

So obviously I don't think it's a lack of consistency. I think the players and the quality of the players never changed. The way they are allowed to play from the opposition's perspective, that might change from game to game. But I do feel, and most of the times, Scotland are their own enemies that the uncontrollables become too much of a factor in the outcome of the game. Franku, you mentioned you've got a very good relationship with Rossi.

You were asked to move to Cape Town. You've assisted the Springboks before. And a lot of this, there's a lot of talk about your future now. And Alexia, you know, the Glasgow again and everything else, but you're also going to have more challenges. You know, probably the squad's going to be made smaller than everything else.

What's the future for Franku? Very broadly, you know, would you like to coach internationally again? you said you wanted to end your career in Italy, I suppose you referred to your playing career, but would you want to coach in Italy again, what's your plans for you for the future you think Oh look, no, no, that's definitely my playing career was in Italy I would love to coach internationally again I think my experiences with Italy in the performance director's role and then also as the head coach then and then also my spare time with with South Africa, the Springboks in between 2016 was very important ingredients for me to understand the whole picture, you know, and also where does the next player come from? I think Rasi gets it right at the moment with the depth and the way he challenges players from a competition perspective. I think I've spent a lot of time in my coaching years developing players and bringing the next generation through even now.

With the help of my assistant coaches, I will never, it's not just a me thing here, but we've brought through so many young players now. That's made it. We signed 10 academy players. We only had a 38-man team last year. We brought these 10 players in.

We lost some experience and we hope that the ingredients this year is the right one. So a lot of competition, a lot of young youth, a lot of players, enough quality players that still want to get to the World Cup in 2020, 27. So yeah, there's a lot of ingredients and things that I think I have in place to do this, to go to the next job from that perspective. But, you know, whenever that happens, that will be fantastic. But for now, I would like to take this next step with the Glasgow Warriors, seeing that we will have a rejuvenated team.

The fact that our age profile went down, but our performance and expectancy went up is a compliment to the rugby programme, and I would like to continue to build that. That was a wonderfully diplomatic answer, Franco. I think the truth is that so many teams will be after you Whenever your Glasgow journey comes to an end, I can think of three countries off the top of my head. It would be absolutely jumping up and down to secure your services. And that's an incredibly wonderful position to be in as a rugby coach.

I think you will have, you know, a decision to make about your heart and where you feel you can bring the most benefit. Chris, if I'm guessing, I kind of feel almost like Italy is calling you back. You started this current team and now you've seen them bloom into becoming proper, you know, world beaters on their day. And you still kept that house in Italy. You've got an Italian daughter-in-law.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if you ended up back there after Casada goes. I think it's a little early to come back I think, thank you for the compliments first of all, but no, we'll we'll see, we'll see, like I said you know, I've always let the Lord pave my path so we'll see I'll if I look too far ahead I'm going to stumble over what's in front of me and you know, in the end it's about you know, to be honest, in the end it's about influencing people's lives. It's about changing the way they would have thought life would work out for them. I jokingly always said to boys, it's to have a part of their inheritance. I mean, if they sign a bigger contract somewhere else, I'm so proud of them because we've had shares in their future.

I've got a lot of staff that's now started to sign better contracts everywhere and that gives me just as much joy. Pete Merchie just made his debut for Wales this weekend. as their defence coach. So really, really good to see everybody, you know, progressing. And that gives me a lot of joy.

So yeah, if whatever comes next, I believe, you know, I'll have a clear idea if something else happens, that will be great. Okay, Franco, I'm going to be a bit more direct. I want to ask you directly because we know Gregor Townsend is going to, you know, move to Newcastle after next year's World Cup. Would you be interested in, you know, coaching Scotland, you know, all things being equal and all the moving parts coming together. Would you be interested if the job's offered to you?

Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I would like to coach internationally again. I think the difference between what's currently the situation, the sense that I've now worked with the players for a period of four years. The last time I coached Italy, I literally worked with players that's never played before. I didn't have access to developing them during the season or aligning them and myself with what I think is necessary to be a performance international team.

So yes, I think I know the players well and I know Gregor's going on, I understand that as well. So yeah, but again, it will be good to work with these players and so I will obviously be interested but I mean it's not necessarily a given that that is how it's going to work out. Okay. And I think that's as much as we're going to get from Franco on that. no I'm going to push him a little bit further Franco you get a call from Rassif say listen I knew the XYZ coach, attack coach, defense coach whatever is available you know where would your heart take you look I think it was a privilege to coach South Africa and they've got such a good setup there so yeah that is something you know that obviously it's a different question but it's not now of mind to reason about because it's not on the table so I think I think Rossi is not in a rush to look at what's going to happen beyond 2028 at the moment 2027 or 2027 until Tony Brown leaves I suppose but it's a completely different question Don't you think there are more than enough Irish men on the coaching ticket in South Africa Franco you need to bring a little bit more South African balance It's a fair comment that we the way everybody says that the south africans are coaching everywhere you want from chrono is doing well cornell is now at bath and france ludic is doing very well in france and we've got um cash was the coach of the season you know dobson's been doing a good job for a long time so um and it is a it this is but it's the irish irish coaches that's been doing the business in south africa isn't it i don't know how we're sneaking in but we're managing it okay frank i need to let you go because it's been over an hour thank you for that um i appreciate you making time for us you know maybe we can have another chat you know closer towards the all blacks maybe because i'm interested to see what you you thought about dave reney what all blacks are like but i mean it's too early now after one game to see you know what they're really up but i'd love to have a chat with you afterwards because also obviously when tony brown leaves there's a big Gabi Hull in that springboard coaching set up so you never know yeah look yeah Dave coached Glasgow before me there so a lot of that what he's left there behind was there and I think he was not treated fairly with Australia also because I know when the landscape is not right you know to keep performing at the top end is difficult and yeah hopefully now he's settled in his home country in a place where he will be appreciated more We're in a time where we've just had this new competition kickoff and it was a try-fest in the first weekend, I think 53 or 54 tries.

There is always going to be tweaking and changing, but rugby seems to be in a really exciting and good place right now. We had the most incredible Six Nations where nobody knew who was going to win, even on the last day. it must be a great time to be a part of it all Franco and to be someone who is who is as in demand as you are to be at the top of the game and you know being spoken about in the very highest of echelons when it comes to coaching it's an it's a you know coming from the amateur era coming from Bloomfontein you know making your debut in 97 to where you are now you talked about God laying out your path, it's an incredible path you've been on. Yeah, no, I agree. I'm very grateful and, you know, so therefore I must keep on honoring him every day and how I approach things and the way that the game is developing at the moment, with a lot of attacking rugby, it comes down my alley, I suppose.

I'm an attack-minded person, although defence wins finals, so that's going to be important to see how much of this is going to go into the World Cup next year. Yes, I think you'll have to outscore your opponents. I think in the pool stages next season, next year in the World Cup, there's going to be opportunities to outscore teams and the attack side of things will definitely dominate. But it will be interesting to see how much the creativity and then obviously the pressure, how that influence gets influenced by pressure to win. If it's seven games in the World Cup, if you win the seven games, even if it's with one point, you end up being the winner.

So, will it be as flashy in this World Cup? I don't know. I think teams should be able to score tries in the next World Cup. So, that is evident in the way that everybody is approaching the game now. And, yeah, if this brand is going to be able to, the amount of tries are going to be scored in, you know, do or die games, it will be a real thing to see still.

But, Let's see. Hopefully there's enough confidence in every squad to build that brand and identify the right players to make their error rate low enough with the ball in hand so that you can persist with that. I think the temperature will be different in Australia next year in the sense that when we play a ball the ball won't be slippery so we will not see too much of the weather influencing what needs to be done. If teams are now using the game time, I think how many test matches are left. I think there's about 12 to 16 test matches left before the World Cups next year.

And, you know, they're making use of every minute to install a certain brand that they think they can use then. Or a point of reference from which they can move away if they need to win and to play different. So, yeah, it's interesting to see what this... And I think the fact that there's finals-like approach to this Nations Cup makes it a little bit of a preparation going into the World Cup also to see what brand... Who maintains the brand that's currently played.

Just in closing, you said you'll be in Pretoria this weekend. Are you going to be watching the game? Going to Loftus or be watching on TV? No, I'm going to be on television. It's better to see all the angles and be closer to the game.

There's always, when you go and watch a game live, sometimes you miss an opportunity to see something again. So now I'll be back home. I think my flight is back home to Bloemstain. It lands at about half past one. so hopefully I'll be in time to see the game from home in Dormantain Thank you so much I appreciate you making time for us and like I said I'll hopefully do it again soon and I'm not sure you're going to support this coming weekend because you've got a lot of Scottish stars there but I suppose in your heart you will secretly support South Africa Look I think pro coaches don't support anymore but obviously I also love my country and really proud South African but But, yeah, so unfortunately they don't have to choose a side this week.

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