Are the Springboks "Old and Slow," or Is England Walking Into a Trap? | Rugby Rundown

Welcome back to the Rugby Rundown every Tuesday with Jan de Koonen. And I was sort of planning in my head to do a live review again after the Springbok team announcement, which would have been on a Tuesday, but as luck would have it, and no surprises, Rassi moved it to Monday. So here we are earlier on a Tuesday morning, the recording at our leisure. Welcome back, Jan. Thank you, Envia.

It's a pleasure. Rassi never fails to entertain us. Let's put it that way. It's not the first time he's moved his team announcement to a Monday. Because they have in the team, internally, they announce the team on a Sunday night.

So these guys, and last week he already said the players know which game they're going to play in. So Marnie knew he was going to play this week. And then we'll get to the individuals and Pollard knows he's playing next week and blah, blah, blah. so to him it's neither here nor there I know a lot of people think he's doing funny things again, no that's Rashi he's just planned ahead and I said to somebody and we can talk about that a bit later people sometimes miss the big picture Rashi is planning way ahead, he's planning to do the World Cup next year, he's looking towards the All Blacks, he's busy all his selections in the Nations Championship, all of that towards the greatest rivalry and the World Cup. Whether he announces it on a Monday afternoon or a Saturday morning, it's all the same.

Everybody in the team that needs to know by a Sunday night. Like you said, there's a big picture. We're all aware of the big picture. Last night I was taken on or scolded for not seeing the big picture that Rossi is painting. Like I'm stupid or something.

But anyway, What do I know? So the only thing that calls me out about this, I was planning to go to Joburg today, which in hindsight might not have been a bad thing because I'm not sure if I would have been able to get to Joburg. I'm not sure what the situation is on the highways at the moment, but you never know. Arashi says he didn't want to scoop Steve Balthwick's team announcement again like he apparently did sometime before. Just to refresh my memory, can you remember what that was about?

Yeah, he predicted the team announcement that Steve Balthwick would do and I think he was out by two players only. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Rossi has a habit of being there. But that's Rossi.

I mean, you can either take him serious. It's like everybody that wants to take Eddie Jones serious. Eddie Jones plays the game. And Steve Borswick, perhaps, and the English, with their lack of humour, don't always see the funny side of Rossi's chirps and comments. So, you know, they take him too serious and they pay the price for it.

Yeah. But let's look at the team then. Big thing for me, Damien Willems and Jesslyn Colby both getting their 50th test caps. I mean, that's quite a bit of a milestone. But I mean, those players were certain choices.

Anything that stands out for you in the starting 15? Anything that caught your eye that maybe that's a little bit unexpected or a little unusual or something? To me, it looks like a pretty settled team. Yeah. I think the surprises are more on the bench.

Given the injury situation, we expected the Ruan and Eamon to start that's a given it's a very settled team and a very experienced team you spoke about Damien and Czeslin this team could well maybe one or two changes could well be the starting 15 in a World Cup final tomorrow if the World Cup final was tomorrow the starting 15 wouldn't look much different from this one I know people will ask about Andre Pollock people will ask about maybe another tight head prop or, you know, but I think the, you know, Carlos Sari or Rossi addressed the tight head prop situation as well. That is why Rossi, Zach Portman is on the bench and not Wilco Lowe, because Wilco has played a lot of rugby and he's also had, as we all know, he's also had a family situation, you know, bereavement in the family. So Rossi is slowly working with him, getting him up to speed. and Zach Porthen he feels it's going to be a fast game, he expects England to run at us I'm not sure if England has got to they selected a youngish team if you want to call it, or a more youthful team than they would, there's no Maro Etoje so I think they're a bit more mobile so Zach Porthen is definitely a young player that's worth looking at too yeah, I think that's the long and short of it. I think that's the only surprises I see.

On the bench you can look at Thomas de Tour, yes. I mean, he's cemented his place now as a starting tight head. And I think we know if anything happens he can go to Lucette as well if he needs to. Yeah, but we can go through every player. Marnie Lubbock I've touched on briefly.

But let's touch on that. Marnie Lubbock if we want to play a running game at Alice Park. and we know what happened and Marnie had a bit of a meltdown at Ellis Park against Australia last year. It wasn't his best performance. So everybody will now say, okay, why Marnie Lubbock?

Because Andre Pollock played for the Bulls and he hasn't been with the Springbok team for so long. That's one of the explanations and it's a valid explanation. Marnie Lubbock's been with the team a week longer. He's more settled. Plus, Rasic clearly wants to play a specific game at Ellis Park.

You know, so he might say that England's a more mobile team, but he'll certainly test him with Marnie's type of game. So I expect a very exciting game with Marnie. And I don't think there's anything wrong with Marnie. I haven't seen many of his Japan games, but apparently he's a more mature player. And that happens with players.

I mean, we've seen so many players. We've seen a Percy Montgomery coming back and being a superstar after being a couple of years out of the country. You know, sometimes it's just that change of environment. and not directly competing with Sascha for a starting place at the Stormers and getting a bit of his own time and clearing his mind. Some players do that.

So let's hope for Marnie's sake that he makes amends for what happened last year. Yeah. Well, Marnie, I think it's the obvious choice. I just heard some stats from his Japan place kicking. It's not that great.

But, I mean, still, I think it was 78%. more or less right there. Andre Paul, I'm not sure where he was, but it wasn't far off from that. So I'm quite happy with that. My biggest concern was, and the English press is running with this, the fact that this team is old and slow.

And you just mentioned that England's supposed to, you know, expected to be running at us and everything else. Is it true to say that this team is old and slow? I mean, any team of Justin Colby, Kirtley Arends, Jesse Creel and the likes, I don't think they're particularly slow. Marnie Lippock himself is no slouch. Or is that just a bit of, you know, more mind games?

I wouldn't take anything serious said by the fleet street mob seriously they they they like angles they like you know it's they will hang on a angle at an agenda because it suits them better you must remember those guys it's like australia where they where the rugby union uh journalists compete with league and all sorts of other sports i mean they're sitting so far down the pecking order so if you want to get onto the back page little in the front page you're going to get into the back page you're going to stir so so what do you do you start uh throwing wild things like it old and slow well we'll see saturday how old and slow they are and how old and slow we are so i don't think it's old and slow it's a very settled mature team and a team that won't panic that's a start and i think they might be in for a surprise remember they haven't got marae tojo um i don't think the the locks that are starting or will start will necessarily be much worse than mario toje but i think in in reality uh i will still personally i would still make the springboks favorites uh maybe it's going to be a tighter game than we think but i i can't see us uh england running us off our feet now i'm interested in the bench because number one there's no lock cover number two there's no 10 cover um but there's a lot of players that can play basically anywhere let's start with janine Hendrik Wessels. Yesterday, I spoke to our friend Arie Hogart, and we speculated about he may be potentially jumping, I don't know, starting at four lock, or coming on as a four lock, because he played four lock at school. And Rassi specifically mentioned that last week in a press conference. Now, you always know when Rassi says something, he plants a seed, and, you know, I'm wondering. And then also, obviously, Andre Estre, as we were above, we all know he can play flanked as well.

But Marco van Stalink can play hooker. Hendrik is supposedly the reserve hooker, but he hasn't played much hooker for the entire season. you know there's so many permutations Cameron Rannekom I spoke to him last Friday at Loft as he was doing some extra work after he came back from the Springboks camp and asked him you know what do you prefer we've always speculated maybe potentially being a 6 in open side in South Africa and he says he doesn't mind he wants to play anywhere he can as long as he can play and I asked him in terms of what's the difference he says the Springboks have a slightly different approach to where 8 plays and where 2 has for example the Bulls the Springboks the Bulls the number 8 plays you know down the middle and that the Bulls might play more towards the edges. And his springbok side is the other way around. Sia and Peter Steffel play on the edges.

He doesn't mind. And I asked him if he thinks he's going to play and he sort of, you know, I don't know. Maybe, I think so. But I mean, clearly he knew. So that's quite interesting.

What do you think of that bench goal position? What surprises do you think we can see jumping out there? Okay. So here's the thing. Yes, there's no specialist lock on the bench but Rassi made it clear after last week teaser that he threw out there about Jan Hendrik playing at Locke and he did play at Locke and number eight at school I mean he played everywhere at school.

Everywhere forwards in any event. Peter Steff will move to Locke because that's why there's so much loose forward cover on the bench. So if anything happens, Peter Steff will go to lock. If Peter Steff is injured, who knows? And again, you know, Rassi with Cameron can probably perhaps slot in at lock or you know, it's very difficult but at this stage Peter Steff is the designated person or player to move to lock.

And then, you know, if anything happens, you know, Jan Hendrik must go or Marco van Staden must go to Hooker, you've still got Andre Estrezen that can play on the flank, you know, so the general bench, I mean, half that bench can play in two or three positions so that utility and as Rashi's hand that's the way he plays, so in the middle of the game, if anything goes wrong he's got cover, he's got a plan So I know we joked before the time about people saying you must see the bigger picture. I think this is a selection where you actually do need to look at the bigger picture, not necessarily in a negative way. But Rossi is busy with a plan. And I think we'll see a slightly different springbok game plan. We're not going to try and bully England into submission.

They can call us old and slow for as much as they like. I think Rossi's got a few surprises up his sleeve for them. yeah the one that stand out for me on the bench is Kanan Moody Kanan had a shocker in the UFC final I think there was 22 turnovers 8 of which was his that he conceded he had a battle in the air he had a yellow card and you know he just was nowhere you know if you're in a defensive system your number 13 is typically your your vital cog almost I suppose most defensive systems I wonder what the plan is there is he going to be played on wing he's very good in the air he's probably one of the best players in the air at wing is quite tall and everything else. Is it a bit of a vote of confidence in Kanan or is it a bit of a flex to say that they can do better with him as a player? What's the thinking there, do you think?

Let's look at a possible scenario, a hypothetical possible scenario. Stamani Lever gets injured. What happens? Well, Damien Willemse will go to fly-off. That's confirmed.

Cheson Colby will go to full-back and Kanan will go into the wing. you know we know that Andre Estrazen can play from 11 onwards anywhere in the backline you know he hasn't played much fullback or but you know we've got cover there you know Jesse Kittle can play on the wing so and then obviously Andre can so I think that's how it all works out I don't see Kanan anywhere outside of wing I see him just as a wing I mean, Kourbis Reinach can play wing if needs be. He's fast enough. Scrum off. I'm not sure how Kourbis is at fly-off, but Damien Willemse has designated fly-off to take over from Mane.

And Andre Estreason is somewhere in the midfield or in the loose forwards. Yeah. What about Jesse moving to wing, like you just said, and Kanan coming on at 13, which is his preferred position? Maybe see how that goes. Yeah, if a player like Kanan is perhaps lacking confidence, as he seemingly is and as the finals suggest.

Then you won't start him there. So I would still think that he would be a wing option. You know, you can move the rest of the back line around. Yeah, 13 with Jesse on the wing is a possibility. To me, it's unlikely because Rossi won't put somebody, unless he's been working with him and he's been working with his mind and he's sorted himself out and get his confidence back.

I would rather see him play that role in, you know, like Wales, playing 13 against Wales rather than England, which is going to be a much tighter game than the Wales game. So, yeah, I mean, we saw that we put 80 points past that Barbas team and Wales barely beat them with a late kick. So, you know, it was a sneaker. So I don't think this Wales team is very strong or much any stronger than they were last year. So, you know, we definitely will start as favourites and then you can play around.

And Rassi is going to play around, make no mistake. His selection from game to game in the next three weeks is going to differ significantly. People might, we should not be surprised if Rassi makes 10 or 11 changes per game. Just the one thing about the Bulls, like Andre Pollard not being picked and Wilkulot not being picked for, you know, because they played in the UFC final just the other day and haven't spent as much time with the team. but all the other bulls that have been selected have also not spent that much time and they're also playing in the final you know I'm not talking about Wilku specifically Wilku is a specific instance I'm not talking about him but Pollard for example you know that and I'm not saying that they should pick Pollard ahead of Lubbock not what I'm saying Lubbock is the right choice for this game make no mistake but I don't think the argument about you know Pollard not this and that that doesn't really hold water for me I think that Pollard needs to build up his confidence again because he also had a bit of a shocker towards the end of the UFC season yeah I think the last bit is probably closer to the reality.

Polat did struggle. After he struggles with a goal kicking, that seemed to get into his head a bit and the rest of his game sort of went south in the same way. Maybe there's something in his life as well that we don't know, that we're not aware of. I hope it's just a slump in form, but we all know what the cliche is. Class is permanent, former temporary classes permanent.

So I think Pollard will be back and Rossi will have a way of getting him back. I think perhaps more the type of game that Rossi wants to play and he needed to have somebody practice. And that's why when he said Marnie has been with him a week longer, it's because Marnie has a week longer to practice this specific style of play. And we know what that means. Rossi wants to run a bit more.

That's why I said to you earlier, he always drops hints and you're going to sometimes read between the lines. And for me, the indication is they can say what they like about us. Rashi is going to run at them. It's Alice Park. They're going to be blowing after 20 minutes and then we'll see who's old and slow.

I'm glad you mentioned altitude. Let's talk about England for a bit. We just saw that the England SSC coach made them practice with masks to simulate playing at altitude. I suppose that's one way of doing it. but when Malcolm Mars runs over you, you forget about all altitude and everything else.

Do you think there's any merit to that kind of a thing? Or are they over-hyping it maybe? People try and find different ways. I've still puzzled that people don't just do the basics. Train at altitude for a week and you know it's been proven.

You've got to give yourself seven to eight days. so England maybe they wanted to have their players from the final that might still come back to bite them because those guys didn't have much recovery time so what when he names his team I would be interested to see how many of the Saints guys actually make a cut will they be able to cope with altitude after such a big game you can do all the signs you want and we've seen that people have tried flying on the day before uh we've been trying this since the 80s 70s and 80s uh yeah in south africa flying from cape tante petoria or from from uh flying from durban to petoria trying all sorts of things from to job and the reality is just you know both teams are going to play at ellis park and both teams are going to you know yes the springboks have been training me so so they will have an advantage in that regard uh but wearing masks i have no i don't know if there's any scientific evidence that that's going to help them play at altitude. Let's talk about the team. You just mentioned Saints won the title, second time in three years last, of course, Bath won it. That should be theoretically quite a strong team.

Settled team, used to playing with each other. Cohesion is going to be quite good. Most importantly, that means Henry Pollock will probably be in that team. Like you just mentioned, you said something about Dwayne Vermeulen. Tell me about that.

Yeah. I think we shouldn't be surprised if Rassi on Friday comes with a sudden change, you know, and Dwayne Vermeer is on the bench. He's been asking for 10 minutes in a game with Polak. So I think yeah, in all seriousness, the important thing is he's a good player. Does his mannerism irritate people?

Yes, I don't think it does. But I'm old school so you know this is a modern game you know you want you want uh primary school kids get to be interested in the game you gotta have characters we always said characters you know i mean we we come from the 70s 60s 70s uh and we had some serious characters you know uh so so do we i i don't think i don't think there's a there's an uh a problem with him as a player and i think if you start focusing on on his mannerisms he succeeded he's already beaten you because you're taking it away from your game and you're taking it away from his game. So ignore what he does and ignore his mannerisms and focus on what you supposed to do on the field and that beat England Last week Rossi said that Pollock and Sasha are pretty much the same in terms of the hype. You know, they get a lot of hype and, but I think there's still a distinction just to continue on the Pollock theme for a little bit. I think Sasha sort of tolerates the hype.

I don't think Sasha courts it. Sasha doesn't want to be the superstar and getting all the attention. Maybe a little bit, but it's not a limelight hogger, I call it that. I think Pollock wants it. Pollock loves it.

Pollock wants to attract. And there's nothing wrong with it. Again, I'm just saying that's why the difference, when you start shouting at the crowd and that kind of thing, there's a bit of a method to that madness, I suppose. But if you want to get to the South African crowd, I'll start doing it at Alice Park. I'd love to see that.

Yeah, I don't think he's ever played at Alice Park, so he might be in for a surprise. although we're going to have a very empty Alice Park so that might scare them even more, the fact that they're going to be waiting for where all these guys are that's waiting for them because they're not going to arrive. If South Africans are too scared to go to Alice Park, what's waiting for them outside? You never know. Well, it's not about being scared.

We know what that place looks like. We've been there often enough and the way it's declining, it's a horror show. You barely can drive on the highway now. you know if you dodge all the roadworks trying to get to alice park you got two ways in and out um and either way once you get off the highway that last kilometer or so is you know you run the risk of hijacking whether whatever whatever uh saru says and stuff it has an impact the area has an impact the price ticket price has an impact i know you didn't ask me about that but there's a reason why they're struggling to sell. They've only sold about 30,000.

They've got more than 35,000 tickets. Yesterday, I looked at you, they still get about 35,000 tickets. The only tickets that were sold is the cheap seats. So the 450 grand seats. From now on, if you want to buy a ticket, you're going to pay a minimum of 950 grand for your seat.

So you're going to have a lot of English guys. It won't surprise me if there's more England shirts in this crowd than South African shirts because, you know, suddenly it's less than £100 for them. It's cheap seats for them. £50 for a ticket. Just as we were talking, WhatsApp popped out on my phone, something that I knew before but I wasn't allowed to talk about.

But Elric Lowe has now been confirmed to have been called up to the Springboks ward. So there we go. Willem Strauss just sent out the WhatsApp. So now I can say it. Thank you.

Thank you, Willem. Perfect time. So it's confirmed, yes. I remember you mentioning it to me. I think that might have something to do with Franco Mostert's injury because Rassi said in his press conference Franco Mostert is two to three weeks.

Two to three weeks means he's not going to play in the Nations Championship. So I think it's got to do more utility forward and maybe that's your answer for the next game. You know, you've got another utility forward and you've got Lewitt. Lewitt is maybe back next week potentially. so yeah I think that just explains that Russi is covering for Franco yeah well Riley Norton is also out I mean he was supposed to make his debut this weekend and you know sadly got injured I think the second last practice or something or movement of the day quite a severe injury hamstring tear I think so that's bad news yeah grade 3 hamstring tear so that's months it's not weeks yeah and it's interesting what Russi said about the youngsters bringing a different energy and you know that dynamism to the to the practice i mean they i seem to be have you know be more energetic and the likes and putting the old guys the old and slow guard along with him yeah i think maybe it happens you know you try and get a bit too enthusiastic you know yeah he had a really good game for the barbers and he showed that he's and he has bulked up a bit and he showed that he's he belongs there um so maybe russia should arrange him in.

I know there's speculation that he would have started. Whether Rashi would have followed through on that, who knows. But the reality is that O'Reilly is now out. It's sad for him, but he's young enough to recover and he'll be back. Maybe for the year-end trip to the UK.

I just think young players like that, when you see they get a bit over-enthusiastic, maybe rein them in a bit and say to them, listen, you're in the picture, Don't go and injure yourself. I remember James Dalton, the famous thing before the test, he went and ran on a treadmill. I don't know if somebody whispered in his ear that his conditioning needs a bit of upgrade. He went and ran on a treadmill and pulled a muscle and was out for a few months. So it happens sometimes.

Players, for whatever reason, get a bit overenthusiastic and suddenly do 10 extra sprints or 2 extra sprints. and it's that extra sprints that usually do the damage. So, yeah, I do feel sorry for him, but he'll be back. I got a bit sidetracked there with what's popping up on my feed while we were talking. So let's get back to England quickly.

England had a horrific Six Nations. I mean, there were Six Nations since it became the Six Nations, between 2001, I think. Ended fifth, only ended ahead of Wales, who was even worse. And you just mentioned Wales early on in this conversation. England's under pressure here.

Steve Balfour is under pressure. He got his contract confirmed, but apparently it was quite a vigorous examination that he was subjected to. You know, England can't really afford to let this one slip, yet they can't really be the favourites either. What are you expecting from this England side? If you look at the squad in general, I think they will be competitive.

Like I said earlier, I think they'll be more competitive than we think. They will be a strong team. I just don't think they're going to last the pace. I think that last 20 minutes, if you look at what we bring off the bench they can say, and again they can say we're old and slow but we bring off the bench which they don't have that depth that we bring off the bench Jan Hendrik, Gerard Stenekamp Zachary Poortin Marco van Staden, Cameron Hanecom then in the backline Koobis, Reinhard, Andre Esfresen and Kanan Moody now, bar perhaps two of those players those could be starters starters, genuine starters you know so our bench will not weaken or in fact we will be able to upkeep the temper you know so if the forward seems to struggle a bit russi won't hesitate to put under estraison on the flank you know if let's say for argument's sake peter steph has to go to lock and see how struggling a bit russi won't hesitate to put under estraison on the flank he's done it before and he'll do it again so to get back to your question about England I think they'll be competitive I think it's a good squad I don't think they're a bad team I just think there's something missing in the camp so maybe leaving Maro Etojo out to rest you know, they're resting Maro Etojo I think maybe that says more about the issues internal issues than actually the type of player they have so let's see on Saturday if they look like a team or if there is because remember they've also got you've got Pollock, you've got these characters and then you've got some of the older players and I don't think they take kindly to these youngsters so you know Borswick wants some new blood, he wants some freshness he wants different dynamics in his team and maybe leaving Mario Toge at home will bring the dynamics of the team will change the dynamics of the team and will be more settled and the team will be more jelled, you know, there won't be that internal strata. They won't have, the old guys won't be so mad about Pollock doing all his poses.

Yeah. You seem to be a bit cynical or sceptical of that Maro Otoja staying at home, but yeah, that's a story for another day. Just lastly, we keep talking about Rossi's, you know, master plan and chase moves and everything else. And an important thing that happens, he recruited Joe Lewis, England's former lead analyst who was with England for nine years. Is he going to be involved in this game already?

Obviously, that's going to be a huge advantage to the spin box well an analyst like that doesn't necessarily have to be at the team or with the team you know in the modern era i mean you're sitting in pretoria i'm sitting in cape town i don't know if you've arrived in cape town yet you're only here tomorrow but uh only tomorrow okay so so you know you're sitting in pretoria i'm sitting in cape town and we can talk you know so nothing stops russi and this guy from talking like this and analyzing and he can do you you know, with the technology, and all you do is you have your graphics and your explanations and your videos ready, and you play it for Rasi, and then you send him the whole file, you know, and they've got an internal exchange or storage cloud facility where they share all these things, and the players have access to that. So that sort of analysis doesn't necessarily, the guy doesn't have to be, you know, to analyze England and to give you some advice and stuff, or analyze your training sessions. Rasi can upload a training session for him or a certain move for him, and he can analyze and say, no, perhaps this is... So that's sort of, I don't think... Will he be involved?

Maybe he's involved already. Who knows? That's my question. Is he actually part of the team already? Isn't there a bit of a gardening leave or a strength of trade or something?

Or is he available? Is he now part of the Springbok squad or coaching team or coaching staff? No matter where he sits in the world, the point is, is he allowed to assist the Springboks yet or not? I'm just thinking... That was made clear.

Yeah, I suppose we have to ask that question from Saru, you know. Or maybe the Springbok team management not team management maybe the media department and say listen you know is he with the box already Yeah Just lastly the referee James Dolman New Zealander As far as I remember, not the one that we would have preferred, let's call it that. Yeah. Maybe I'm matured, maybe I'm getting old, but yes, I do get frustrated with some calls, but I'm more of the view that you take the referee out of the game, by playing, doing well. You know, I mean, if your discipline is good, and I'm not talking about slapping a ball away or tackling a guy high or that sort of discipline.

I'm talking about staying in the system, you know, making sure that when you've got the ball, you keep the ball, you know, stay in your position, stay in the game, understand where you're supposed to be. That type of discipline, if that's good enough, you're not going to find a guy that needs to suddenly clean out a rack and run a few seconds late and then dive over the rack and give a penalty away. you know that you need to be disciplined in staying in the system staying in the moment so yeah that's how you take the referee out of the game you know just don't make mistakes don't give this don't give the referee the opportunity to come into the game and blow you yeah no i agree with you 100 percent all right uh lastly you mentioned to me just before we went on air the epcr the champions cup and the challenge cup they've changed the rules slightly and i'm a little confused as to why they would do that. Tell me about that. Yeah, so the EPCR has decided they want to make it a bit more exciting.

They felt that, and it happened to the Sharks, so maybe as an explainer, it happened to the Sharks last year. They won two games, but a team that won only one game, overtook them on the standings, and they got knocked out of the playoffs and thus, you know, they didn't make the playoff, they didn't make the cut. So the reality is that they want to avoid that teams can lose by plenty of points but still score four tries. So they've changed it. The one thing, the important thing is they've changed it to three tries or more than opposition.

So that's a thing that we've used in Super Rugby and in Suns are quite a bit. So, you know, that's a big change. so what they're doing is that they've also gone to the three highest clubs ranked in each pool will automatically qualify so that's the other big thing is that only three qualify and that gives you 12 and then the rest of the 16 places, the next four places go to the highest ranked teams overall so you avoid that artificial bonus point scenario dropping somebody out and then obviously the Challenge Cup round of 16 will be awarded to the next four clubs. So you've got 12 teams, three from each pool, and then you've got another four teams. So you get to your 16 teams.

The next four teams, 17, 18, 19, and 20, they drop down to the Challenge Cup. So that means... That's just the main... There's other things. What I can say with you, I sat in a media briefing with the...

EPCR CEO last week and there weren't too many journos on the group, for some other reason they decided, so I'll ask you a specific question and there was this big booha about South Africa want to leave the European Cup and the Challenge Cup, it is absolute unadulterated nonsense South African teams, and I can confirm this, has been signed in those competitions till 2030 they are full time, they, we're going nowhere. The South African teams are going nowhere. So that the person, I won't mention his name, but the person who ran with the story claimed he had inside info. The fact is whatever his source is, and his source might be legit, his source was wrong and he was wrong. It's more likely that South Africa will tell New Zealand and Australia, move the rugby championship to the February-March window or we're going to be out.

Because we have to find a place, a proper off season so the rugby championship as we know after the july window then now this year it's the greatest rivalry but the rugby championship is sitting in that window and we need to find a two-month window for our players to rest a proper off season and that is where the problem lies and new zealand australia doesn't don't want to move and saru is starting to get a bit edgy and And the more likely event is that if push comes to shove, it's the rugby championship that will fall, that we will pull out of that, not the European Cup. And there's too much money for us in the European Cup. There's no real money for us to go back to the Southern Hemisphere. We're providing all the television money. We provide all the bums on seats.

So why would you go back to giving our money to Australia? Because remember, we supported them for so long. Everybody got an equal share. you know 33 percent of the tv revenue 33 percent of all this uh marketing and sponsorship revenue when we were bringing on the bulk we were bringing as much as 60 of that revenue in so we now said to them or we will likely say to them uh listen you you don't offer me much in terms of money um even if you don't move your your window the or the rugby chance window we will have to consider just like we did with you know and then new zealand threw their toys at the cart and chase us away and they're now regretting it they're now regretting that we're not in super hockey because super hockey is uh they're folding they're they're down to a 10-team tournament simply because they can't afford it you can't keep it's like we did with japan where the sunwolves you know somebody has to they don't get the money they don't have the the clubs are not interested in supporting uh makeshift team like that so the same with the super equity they've just lost two teams and you know they've already lost in australia they lost the uh melbourne rebels and now they've lost the pacifica team you know so yeah it's it's uh that tournament sadly uh run its race and they must find something else something different their best bet would be but it's unlikely to happen is to get a couple of african teams in there to to spark interest again but i don't think that's going to happen well interesting if if we withdraw from the rugby championship that means the springboks are not going to be playing in the rugby championship the way are they going to be playing are they just not going to have a rest they're going to break because then they can do you know how much money that will cost us if the springboks don't play or play you know the springboks will have to play somewhere else that's what my my thinking is well they can play they can play uh at twickenham they can have a series of games at twickenham because they're always popular at Twickenham. Twickenham sells, I think the last one where the Springboks played, they sold 60,000 seats.

So, you know, in pounds, that's quite a handy cash handout. So I'm sure it's not going to be as easy as I make it sound like we're just going to walk away. There'll be a lot of talking, but the most likely option is the rugby champs. What will follow from that, how they will fill that gap. That's all the discussions.

And Mark Alexander, in that press conference when this thing took a sharp left turn and completely veered off the rails, Mark Alexander made it clear that in July they will be asking some hard questions and making some tough calls. And that's one of the things, you know, that's where those discussions will take place. They are going to take place. and how do we create that rest period because we have to create that rest period because already now the Bulls are without their spring box, 12 of them that well 10 of them that 2 has left so 10 of their spring box are not within until December and we've discussed this before so the franchises also need to find a way to get value out of those plays, you only have your spring box half your starting team for only from December and then lose them in February and March because they need to take a break, a compulsory eight-week break. So Saru has to find a solution.

And there's no money. Yes, there is money but it's not nearly as much. Remember we're now a partner in EPCR and we're a partner in URC. So there's good money for South Africa and rugby is making good money there. No, I agree with you.

I think EPCR is the future. I'm just wondering where the Springboks will go because this is at the end of the day the golden goose, you know, the one that lays the golden eggs. That's going to be an interesting development, I think. Yeah, there's been talk, although I'm not sure it'll ever happen, but there's been talk that the Springboks can go and add another team to the Six Nations or something like that. Whether that will ever materialise, I'm not sure.

But there are options and there's things that people talk about. So, you know, we can speculate all we like, but there's behind the scenes in the boardrooms, those conversations are ongoing. Okay, Jan, thank you so much. Let me get this one out with Elrigelo breaking news. I'm quite happy about that.

Thank you, Willem Strauss. I was itching to say something, but I couldn't, but now I can. So, yeah. People, I've got my Elrigelo each scratched. Thank you.

Thank you, Jan. Have a good one. Say hi to Lofi for me next week again. Will do. Envia.

Have a lovely day. Thank you.

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